Star Wars SPOILER THREAD

[theseaword]

You’ve been warned.

[theseaword]

This may come in bits and pieces, as I need time to digest. Initial broad thoughts:

I liked the movie
It felt kinda like two movies
Like they crammed two movies together, you know?
The A plot was fucking fantastic (I’ll go into that more) and the B plot was lame o
Loved the whole theme of there is no obvious good/no obvious evil. No clear right and wrong type of stuff. That’s the theme I thought this trilogy would have.

A plot thoughts
I LOVED the connection between Rey and Kylo. Those moments were the best, and honestly the most human connection I’ve felt in the new trilogy so far.
I liked the burning of the Jedi stuff and the acknowledgment that it had become a bloated institution that couldn’t see the forest for the trees.
I liked Luke explaining the force to Rey. Felt like a nice reset after the medicloreon debacle
WTF to Luke though. I can kinda see him thinking for a minute about killing Ben. Luke has always has some dark in him, he knows his bloodline is powerful and can lean dark. But my WTF is to him straight up lying about it to Rey. Man, Luke. Man. Shady mcShadster over here.
Snokes overarching goal seemed pretty murky. But whatever. He was boring and now he’s gone and that scene was overall just the tits.
Poor lonely Kylo


B plot thoughts
WHY?
No seriously. What??? Finn go do this thing. Now do this other thing. Hell, how about another thing? And none of this will really give you much of a character arc.
I love fin but this wasted his time so hard.
Oh hey, it’s phasma!!
Ok, bye, phasma!
Poe had a good arc, but Jesus it was boring and frustrating to watch.
Chewie and Leia had jack all to do.
Oh no, kids! NO KIDS IN SW MOVIES THEY ARE ALWAYS TERRIBLE

Open questions
Do we believe Kylo about Rey’s parents? I hope it’s true, but don’t we see her getting rescued from somewhere in force awakens? And he seems to know about her in that movie (“what girl?”). I think he lies.
Is rey and Finns romance storyline dunzo? I think it is. They barely acknowledged each other and it seems like he’s moved on.
Is kylo dooooomed now? I thought after force awakens that rey was going to become something entirely new. Not a Jedi, and not a sith, but something with true balance. After this one, I’m not so sure. Seems like she’s positioned as Jedi 2.0, and Kylo is now stuck in Sith mode as he can’t get over his past. I think he’s doomed but I’m still rooting for him. Kylo and Finn are still my faves. I liked Rey better in this movie, as I feel like her scenes with Kylo humanized her. I worry she may be dull again by the next movie, now that she’s firmly in camp light side.

[cakewench]

I basically agree with all of that, theseaword.

Tackling B plot first, because Poe: It was SO HARD to watch him make these decisions, even though they were totally in line with his character (FFFC: I've read his comic book series and basically everything I can get my hands on). Seeing those choices spiral out of control was difficult. But I mean, I think that was kinda the point? Like, if everything always broke for the Rebellion where would the drama be? But holy shit every time he got in a cockpit the phrase "heavy losses" came up within the next few minutes, guaranteed. Finn's part felt a little... extraneous?, but I didn't mind it as much. I could take or leave Benicio del Toro, though.

I thought the whole Rey/Luke/Ben/Snoke plot was handled extremely well. Also, I totally lost it when Luke and Leia were talking - I just couldn't stop thinking about Carrie Fisher. I had no idea Yoda was going to make an appearance in this movie but I loved it.

I can't decide if I believe the bit about Rey's parents. I'd have to go back to her flashbacks in Force Awakens, I think we just see her being handed over to Unkar Plutt, but I can't be 100% sure. With regards to her romantic line with Finn, I'm not sure that was originally the goal. The whole Poe/Rey introduction at the end of this movie is actually from the novelization of Force Awakens and was supposed to happen at the end of that movie (the book says something about her liking his face, which... I mean COME ON, who doesn't? ) It looks like that's where they are going? But they've barely had screen time together so it feels... forced.

[cakewench]

Also my movie theatre had major problems last night. All the standard definition screens were ruined by a corrupted trailer file, so they had to re-download the movie on all of those screens. Our showing was supposed to start at 8:30 (standard def) and changed to a 3D that didn't start until after midnight. Today is also my due date, so if it weren't for the fact our chances to see it will get very limited after this weekend, we wouldn't have stayed. We got free passes out of it, at least. But I ate so much junk trying to stay awake, I feel so bad for this kiddo.

[Dramaphile]

I'm glad the Rey/Finn romance (or more like, Finn's crush on Rey, and I loved Rose so much. I didn't mind the B plot with Finn and Rose and the code-breaker guy, I thought it was some character development for Finn and a chance for BB-8 to be awesome. It didn't really move the plot forward, but that's ok.

I can see why Luke would lie to Rey about thinking about killing Ben, it's shameful to admit something like that, and he's trying to keep her from sympathizing with Kylo. Of course it does the opposite and gives her enough doubt to put grey areas in her opinion of Kylo.

I am not ashamed to say I loved the animals they introduced. The Porgs with Chewie made me so happy, and the racing horse thingies were awesome. Muppet Yoda made me stupidly happy. Watching Luke drink green milk fresh from the tits of those walrus cow things made me really uncomfortable.

The entire scene with Kylo and Rey and Snoke and the lightsaber battle was probably my favorite part of the entire movie. It was everything I never knew I wanted and more.

I definitely teared up when Leia and Luke reunited. And the little dedication to Carrie in the credits. Oh man. And the flight between Kylo and Luke was everything. It's funny, I noticed pretty quickly it wasn't Luke because of the red salt, my husband apparently knew it wasn't him because he had the wrong lightsaber.

This movie really felt like the passing on of the old guard, and the end (and going forward) is really the new rebels leading themselves.

[Dramaphile]

As far as Rey coming from nothing, I think it is really the embodiment of what Luke was trying to teach her, that the Force is everywhere and not just in Jedi. That it's not just a genetic thing that is passed down. I think it's true, and I like that they went down that route.

[theseaword]

Wait, Rey and Po as an item!? I am not here for that. No no no. She connected very meaningfully with Kylo in this one. I don’t know if it’s romantic or not, and I don’t care, but I don’t think the third movie in a trilogy would be enough time for them to build up chemistry between two characters who haven’t even met, on top of all the other threads that will need to be wrapped up. NO

[cakewench]

I don't know if that's where they are officially going, theseaword - I just recognized that meeting at the end of LJ from the end of the TFA novelization, which I interpreted as a tiny hint of something possible. Personally I don't ship it, and I feel like if they put it in the next movie it will be kinda weird.

But really, I think Poe only has eyes for BB-8

[Dramaphile]

I don't think Rey/Po will be a thing. I think giving Rey a love interest takes away from her journey.

[theseaword]

Food for thought. I like Joanna Robinson from her GOT and Westworld articles/podcasts.
www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-reylo-do-kylo-and-rey-fall-in-love-sex/amp

[theseaword]

Another one:
www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-run-time-too-long-cut-canto-bight/amp

I disagree with her somewhat here. I definitely wanted more Finn. He’s my second favorite. But why couldn’t they give him an actual character arc, vs having him just chasing a mcguffin? When we first meet Finn, he’s rocked out of his stormtrooper brain washing when he sees a fellow stormtrooper die. I had hoped this was going to be a conflict for him. It didn’t pan out in TFA, which was disappointing but I gave a pass to since there was so much going on. But it seems like such an easy way to add drama to this movie and delve more into his character. And it totally fits the theme of blurry lines between good and evil. Missed opportunity for me.

[cakewench]

Dec 15, 2017 12:35:24 GMT -6 Dramaphile said:

I don't think Rey/Po will be a thing. I think giving Rey a love interest takes away from her journey.

I really hope you're right, because I totally agree.

[Leaf 🌱]

+1 for team no romance drama for Rey please. They are doing such a fantastic job with the female characters that it would be so so disappointing (and distracting) to see that happen.

I really liked the movie. I looooooved Laura Dern’s character. I have a lot more feels about this but I’m too tired to make sentences.

[Queen Mamadala]

I have so many thoughts. H and I watched a few of our favorite Youtube reviewers and talked for a couple hours. In short, I loved it so much. On par with Empire for me, if not better for its complexity and layers.

1. The humor was great.
2. The tension in the beginning had me on the edge of my seat. The space battle scenes were phenomenal. Fantastic work, Rian & team.
3. Luke/Mark Hamill is at his best. Raw, weathered damaged by his failures.
4. I'm digging the Reylo connection, though I'm not sure about a love interest-y element. I don't want it to take away from her overall journey and further character development and evolution.
5. I love where they took Kylo. There are many layers and he's obviously carrying around a lot of hurt and pain. He seems conflicted, but his internal conflict -- anger, pain, abandonment, manipulation by those around him, created this multifaceted monster. I think it's possible he can be redeemed.

6. I got the sense that the lessons here were not just about individual failures, but the failure of the Jedi Order and its dogma. That even those with the best intentions can falter. H and I speculate the Jedi Order knew about the "unlimited powers" that can be accessed through the Force, as we see in Snoke, by tapping into our emotions, the full spectrum. I think Vader came to realize that and sought to use his raw power to shape the galaxy as he saw fit. The Jedi Order created rules and dogma that forbade Jedi from forming attachments that can facilitate a range of these human emotions. They were restricted from using other aspects of the Force for fear it would "turn" them or cause them to crave too power (it reminds me a bit of Doctor Strange with the Ancient One and her disciples. The disciples were led astray when they tapped into "forbidden magic" that led them to Dormammu, when sorcerer Kaecilius discovered the Ancient One was tapping into it for her immortality. She made decisions for the betterment of all sorcerers and the universe. She use restraint and understood balance is necessary, but others, like Kaecilius, would abuse it.) Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if other orders/users of the Force have been able to tap into its raw power that Jedi used restraint and restrictions, but at what cost? Again, what if it isn't Light vs. Dark and there are shades of grey and balance is key to all things. Just like human emotions.

7. Which leads me to the Canto Bight segment. I know many reviewers think this is the weakest part of the film. That it lags and messes with the pacing. (I agree on the pacing) And it doesn't exactly move the plot again. But I saw it as adding an important element to the overall story that there's more than Rebels vs. Empire. There are whole worlds that are far removed from the intergalactic war being waged. There are societies that deal in both sides. Rich people in the business of war, unharmed, but also guilty of subjugating others in the name of business and profit. DJ even says good guys and bad guys are just words, and Finn comes to realize the Rebels buy their weapons from the same dealers that do business with the Empire. That in war, good and bad is all relative. Obviously he believes in his mission, but it adds more layers and nuance to the effects and mechanism of war on both sides. I also think there was a major character arc for Finn if we look back to TFA where he was a deserter of the First Order who then tagged along with Rey and concerned himself mostly with saving her, not so much the Rebellion. But toward the end at the abandoned Rebel base we see him willing to sacrifice himself for the cause. His journey with Rose gave him a better understanding of what the Rebellion is and means to people, even those in far away planets untouched by war (the kids). Plus, this segment focuses on PoC characters, in which case representation matters. It's important. It may pull away from the main protagonists' narrative (and there are many fans who bitch about the Canto Bight segment because it's too SJW and PoC heavy -- they prefer the focus on the white characters -- fucking racist shitbags).

Also, this segment was one Po had part in planning, and once again, the plan failed -- going back to failure being an important lesson in growth. He undermined Vice Admiral Holdo, whose plan would have worked. Rose went along with the journey and adventure of being part of the Rebellion, and Po and Finn, while well-meaning in the intentions, made risky decisions. But those decisions led to further character arc. We see this at the end when Po is ready to fight the remaining First Order as they break through the armored fortress, but he realized that not all battles have to be won his way, with brute force and risky attacks.

8. Yoda...being yoda. Love, love, love.
9. I'm curious whether Kylo's right about Rey's parents. Was he just manipulating her to make her feel alone and abandoned like him in hopes it would persuade her to join him? I like the idea of her not coming from a prestige lineage. It rings true to the whole "the Force is in everyone and everything, not just Jedi" and since Jedi weren't supposed to have kids, that would be true, right? Force users would have to come from regular people. However, I don't think her parents were these awful drunkards like he claimed. I think he used that to manipulate her. Perhaps she essentially became an orphan due to circumstance out of their control.
10. Snoke's death. The whole scene. HOL-EE SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Major goosebumps and I totally teared up. The fight scene with the Praetorian Guards was fucking fantastic. All of it, and the connection between Rey and Kylo. Wow. I really love the wide shots of lightsaber battles. They're my favorite.
11. I have to give mad props to Andy Serkis. He's phenomenal as Snoke. Very commanding presence and insane powers. He was a very intimating villain and it was interesting to get a better look at his dynamic with Kylo. We saw the manipulation and Kylo basically being used as a tool, a pawn, in a larger game. Snoke wanted Skywalker out of the picture. The remaining Jedi, and he used Kylo to lure him out. That was the point Kylo knew what he had to do. Out with the old and in with the new.

Taking a break. I still have thoughts. Lol.

[theseaword]

Queen Mamadala , I like your thoughts on providing a new prospective on the galaxy through the Finn subplot. I actually like that a lot. I just wish Finn had been given an actual arc. He’s a former stormtrooper. A child soldier. I feel like that’s low hanging fruit for some conflict/character development. Give him an arc!!

[theseaword]

So my husband had an idea and I kind of like it. I was whining that Kylo is the only villain left, so redemption seems unlikely from a movie structure standpoint. DH was also asking about Snoke, and if we ever find out who he was. So I said, no, I guess it doesn’t matter. Maybe it was Darth Plageous and palpatine didn’t actually kill him because hell, his power is returning from the dead.
So DH said, well, maybe that’s your third movie villain. Maybe Snoke will come back and reveal he was Plageous. Would open up the door to another big bad aside from Kylo.
Thoughts? I kinda like it.

[cakewench]

Queen Mamadala, I wish I could LT your post more than once!

theseaword - Well, Darth Plagueis did seek to overcome death, so if anyone can do it... I am intrigued by this theory. A lot.

[Leaf 🌱]

I think one of the main issues i have with the movie is my fault. I kept expecting them to kill off Leia and I was honestly shocked she made it through the whole movie. It tugged at my suspension of disbelief the entire time.

I also don’t like the Rey/Kyle possible romantic tension bc there has been so much speculation that they’re siblings or related some how.

It also annoyed the hell out of me that a huge number of deaths were caused by Po being so over confident and not listening to any of his (wiser, female) leaders. He’s every over zealous guy in every meeting ever.

[ainsleyhayes]

Things I loved:
Kylo/Ben/Rey. The fight scene with the guards was magnificent. I was so obsessed with Adam Driver in this movie.
The fighting on the salt planet. That use of red - amazing.
Killing Luke the way they did. It felt right.
The revelation about Rey’s parents.
The humor. So, so good.

Things I didn’t like:
The side plot with Finn, especially the gambling planet stuff. It felt so much like pod racing in episode 1 and was a huge turnoff.
The whole movie needed tighter editing, no need for it to be 2.5 hours.
The styling of laura dern’s character. That purple hair was the worst.
While I’m glad they didn’t kill Finn, I really wanted him to fly into the canon.
That black bb-8.
They really need to give the women stars better hair styles. The various forms of ponytail with weird fringe around the face needs to stop.

[ainsleyhayes]

Dec 16, 2017 14:30:51 GMT -6 Leaf 🌱 said:

I think one of the main issues i have with the movie is my fault. I kept expecting them to kill of Leia and I was honestly shocked she made it through the whole movie. It rugged at my suspension of disbelief the entire time.

I also don’t like the Rey/Kyle possible romantic tension bc there has been so much speculation that they’re siblings or related some how.

It also annoyed the hell out of me that a huge number of deaths were caused by Po being so over confident and not listening to any of his (wiser, female) leaders. He’s every over zealous guy in every meeting ever.

Same re: Leia.

[sheilathetank]

I live here now. I just got back from seeing it and I'm at a 10,000. All in all i really liked it. It was way better than the previous movie. I'm going to try and form coherent sentences but I'm super excited and on mobile so forgive me.

1. Firstly, how have none of you brought up the whole Leia floating through space thing. I am so not okay with any of that scene. It was stupid and completely unbelievable. I don't care what excuse you come up with, there is no force power in existence that can protect you while floating in space for that long. It just can't. Sorry. No. No, no, no, no. At the very least she should have had burns or been disfigured or something! It annoyed me even more because that was their out for her character. They even had a second out when she was talking with Holdo. Why the fuck didn't they show Leia staying on the ship and not Holdo? They used a CG Tarkin for Rogue One. Don't tell me they couldn't have done something with this. Does this now mean that the next movie is just going to start with them telling us she's dead, like they did with Ackbar? Not ok with the Ackbar thing either.

2. Poe. Oh god, Poe. I hated him in this one. He was a complete arrogant mansplaining asshole. He got so many people killed just to try and prove his way was better. Han could be a dick, but he didn't get a shit ton of people killed for his own gain. If he an Rey end up together i may end up having to punch the director in the dick.

3. WHYYYYY were the bomber ships the slowest things that ever existed. It took everything in me not to scream in the theater "go faster!"

4. I liked Kylo in this one. Truth be told, I hated his character in the last movie. I do not find Adam Driver attractive at all and I find his overall face to be distracting. In the last one when they focused on him being an evil villian and then he takes his mask off, I burst out laughing. He is not scary. He is not evil. He is no where close to Vader. I liked in this one how they turned the focus away from that and focused more on him as a guy who was spiraling on wrong choices.

5. I 110% believe that Rey came from nothing. That is the entire point. They had something like 10,000+ Jedi before the fall of the republic. They didn't all come from the same family guys. That's also why they show the kid in the end. You can come from nothing and still be a powerful Jedi. The force doesn't discriminate.

6. I loved Reylo interactions. I now ship them. And because no-one is allowed to be happy in movies ever, I know Kylo will probably sacrifice himself to save her.

7. When will the Jedi learn that saying "I can feel the conflict within you" is the wrong fucking thing to say when the other person is teetering on the dark side. This is now the third fucking time this has happened. Why when Kylo was like "join me" Rey didn't say "Why do we have to pick a side?" I was so hoping she would be the grey Jedi the force desperately needs. Especially after Luke's speech about the bloated Jedi dogma and her experience in the sea cave. But alas, she did what every other person did before her and was like "OMFG I would never involve myself with darkness you are a monster for even thinking of that." I really could take or leave her now. I'm really getting tired of the same storyline rehashed a thousand times over.

8. I had no problem with Finn's story arc. The only friend he knew was a girl he met for 5 minutes before shit went down and in that 5 minutes he believed she was reason to fight. This movie showed him that there were other reasons to stay and fight. He was shown love and kindness. He was taught about the world beyond what he knew. He was shown that there is more beyond the fight in front of him. I like him. He was my favourite in the last movie too, because he was an original character idea, not the same shit in a new body.

9. Old Luke Skywalker trolling everyone gave me life.

I'm sure there is more but that's enough for now.

[theseaword]

I honestly did not have a HUGE problem with the Leia scene. I thought the filming was cheesy. But Jedi are always putting themselves in these deuce ex machina healing trances in the novels, so it didn’t feel like a huge departure from Force powers as I understand them. I just thought it looked cheesy in the way they filmed it. Like maybe just put her in the trance and have her get picked up, vs her actually propelling herself back into the ship.

There were quite a few unbelievable near misses, with all but the named characters exploding (Poe in the docking bay, then with Finn/rose on the imperial ship).

I’ve definitely come around on believing Kylo about Rey. I had convinced myself based on some hint from TFA that someone knew something about her, but I rewatched that movie and they definitely script it to mislead you, but there’s truly nothing there. Yay!

I didn’t expect Leia to die in this one. Carrie Fisher died when they movie was already in the can, right? I’m sure it would have been costly to fix all that, or bring the actors back to film scenes of them reacting to that, etc. not sure how they will deal with it in the next episode. Tricky one.

[sheilathetank]

theseaword I agree that the cheesiness definitely contributed to my problems with that scene. It was so OTT and I found myself having German embarrassment for her. They made her look like a goddess. It was weird and unbelievable.

I had another thought re: Snokes. Someone said upthread that he was a scary villian. I... Did not get that feeling from him at all. He screamed creepy grandpa to me. Like bad breath, diaper wearing, nursing home grandpa. I physically recoiled when he dragged Rey closer to him. The only time I was ever even remotely impressed with him was when he forced pulled Hux through the hologram. Now, in comparison, Palpatine was a terrifying, manipulative force to be reckon with. Snokes left a lot to be desired and I'm glad they killed him off.

I'm ok with Kylo being the only "bad guy" because he's not a bad guy really. It will be nice to get away from the whole good Vs evil thing.

[sammichcat]

I liked how the arrogant, far-fetched plans didn't pan out and screwed with the original plan and got a ton of people killed. Similarly, I also liked that the code breaker guy was totally gray and switched sides to suit him. Not everyone is like Han and will be won over by the heroes. That's realistic.

I don't like romance in movies. I just don't. And usually, I would whine about every female having to have a love interest, but....I feel like the chemistry between Rey and Kylo was soo amazing. I would love to see the beginning of some off-screen angry love/hate sex in the next movie.
I also would have enjoyed watching Rey fall to the dark side for a while. So much that she scares Kylo back to the light? Rey seems like such a complex character that I think it would have been very entertaining. I was so excited when she went down that hole, but then it all amounted to nothing, really.

I didn't like Rose. I can't tell if it was the writing or the actress. I liked her sister better, TBH. Rose just didn't have enough character to make her interesting. And kissing Finn at the end came out of left field for me, like, what?!

I loved the general? in purple. She was a great female role model IMO. Super BA and competent! And a good example of someone in charge who is not incompetent and needing to be saved by their underlings.

I love the Hux/Kylo dynamic. Hux hates him so much haha.

I wanted more for Finn. I want him to be a Jedi too. But if not that, something. Something big. I really like him. Couldn't he pull Rey out of the dark by the power of friendship and a stern talking to?

Why isn't Rey using a Glaive sort of light saber. I mean, she had that giant stick. Why isn't her lightsaber stuck on the end?

[sammichcat]

Dec 17, 2017 15:09:56 GMT -6 sheilathetank said:

theseaword I agree that the cheesiness definitely contributed to my problems with that scene. It was so OTT and I found myself having German embarrassment for her. They made her look like a goddess. It was weird and unbelievable.

I had another thought re: Snokes. Someone said upthread that he was a scary villian. I... Did not get that feeling from him at all. He screamed creepy grandpa to me. Like bad breath, diaper wearing, nursing home grandpa. I physically recoiled when he dragged Rey closer to him. The only time I was ever even remotely impressed with him was when he forced pulled Hux through the hologram. Now, in comparison, Palpatine was a terrifying, manipulative force to be reckon with. Snokes left a lot to be desired and I'm glad they killed him off.

I'm ok with Kylo being the only "bad guy" because he's not a bad guy really. It will be nice to get away from the whole good Vs evil thing.

Yes. Cheesy. I actually thought Kylo had rescued her up at first.
And I too, want to explore the gray areas instead of good v evil. Why do the Jedi and Sith have to be all one or the other, what about the gray?

[leahcar]

I am thinking they will have Leia die of old age by having a long time period in between 8 & 9. Maybe they open with her funeral.

I disliked the casino and the floating in space. Otherwise, I was a big fan of this one.

[Dramaphile]

This article really hits a lot of my feelings about this movie:

www.slashfilm.com/the-last-jedi-defense/

[leahcar]

Dec 18, 2017 8:31:00 GMT -6 Dramaphile said:

This article really hits a lot of my feelings about this movie:

www.slashfilm.com/the-last-jedi-defense/

That's a good article! 

[sheilathetank]

I agree with pretty much every word in that article. Especially the part with Yoda having to be the one to burn down the tree. The tension in the theater, by the super fans that you know spent months analyzing every poster, picture, and word for hidden theories was palpable up until that point. When Yoda pulled the proverbial trigger and literally burned the Jedi legends down, im pretty sure I heard a global sigh of relief that it was ok if Yoda says so.

Has anyone found people who really didn't like it? I'm curious to see why.

*I consider myself a super fan to a point but lean more towards chaotic neutral in that if they burned it all down and started fresh I wouldn't be mad at all.

[sheilathetank]

I think my favourite character so far is the code breaker. The ultimate chaotic neutral, He represents the majority of the galaxy's inhabitants in that most are just trying to survive and get by as the Skywalker family fights among themselves for three generations. By this point, it is "just business" because tomorrow there will be another war, with another good side and bad side, and people will still need to find a way to eat and pay their bills amongst it all.