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Post by sheilathetank on Dec 20, 2017 8:43:29 GMT -6
Regarding the supervillain for ep.9, I don't think there will be one. At least I hope there won't. I would love to see Hux break off and form his own army and/or stage a coup again Kylo. It's obvious he's flipping pissed about Kylo positioning himself as supreme leader. Unlike Vader and Tarkin who had mutual understanding and respect for one another, those two are at a constant power struggle. It would be great if in the midst of the whole good vs. evil fight, there is a simultaneous evil vs. evil fight.
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Post by Dramaphile on Dec 20, 2017 8:48:39 GMT -6
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Post by sheilathetank on Dec 20, 2017 8:53:50 GMT -6
Other thoughts:
Luke said Ben took some of the students from the temple with him before he killed the others and burned it down. What happened to those people?
What do you think the island caretaking nuns are doing now that there is no tree and books to care for?
Do you think Anakin saw the whole thing with Snoke/Kylo and was like "Motherfucker! I spent YEARS living with the Emperor's bullshit and this kid kills his master in 5 years! WTAF! If I knew it would have been that easy, I would have done that right after I got done saying 'noooooooooooooooooooooo!'"?
Do we know if Luke will be back for the next movie?
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Post by Dramaphile on Dec 20, 2017 9:12:32 GMT -6
Other thoughts: Luke said Ben took some of the students from the temple with him before he killed the others and burned it down. What happened to those people? What do you think the island caretaking nuns are doing now that there is no tree and books to care for? Do you think Anakin saw the whole thing with Snoke/Kylo and was like "Motherfucker! I spent YEARS living with the Emperor's bullshit and this kid kills his master in 5 years! WTAF! If I knew it would have been that easy, I would have done that right after I got done saying 'noooooooooooooooooooooo!'"? Do we know if Luke will be back for the next movie? I'm pretty sure the other students became the Knights of Ren, which Snoke mentions in TFW.
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Post by sheilathetank on Dec 20, 2017 9:36:46 GMT -6
@heartbot and everyone who didn't like the Kylo/Rey scene about her parents, I think you are putting words in his mouth because you don't like him and that's ok. I get it. He was a whiny shitty person in the last movie and I was 110% onboard with the fuck Kylo train. But at no point did he ever say "you are noone to anyone but me". They could have easily put in that phrase, but they didn't. That entire exchange between them goes back to the most important scene in the movie which is the sea cave/campfire scene. We see Rey go down into the cave and she tells us she went looking for answers. She asks it to show her her parents and just like Luke was shown that his greatest fear was becoming his worst enemy, Rey is shown her greatest fear that she is truly alone and the family that she has so longed for is really gone. Then we hear her voice over and the scene changes to her by the campfire in her hut. She's wrapped in a blanket and warming herself by the fire because she has JUST gotten out from that cave. The camera pans out and you expect her to be talking to Luke, but no, she's talking to Kylo through the force. And she says "I have never been more alone and neither have you" DO YOU REALIZE HOW SIGNIFICANT THIS IS?! This means that the person she trusts the most with this information isn't Luke, her teacher, or even Chewie for that matter. It's the guy she tried to shoot with a blaster through the force only a few days ago. The one she keeps calling a monster. She realizes that she has more in common with this person than ANY of the people she has met on this journey so far. She shares this with Kylo. She then reaches out to him and they touch in one of the most intimate exchanges I think I've ever seen on film. Now going back to the exchange after the lightsaber fight. It ends and she immediately runs over to the view screen saying they can still save the resistance. And that's when Kylo loses and it yells at her that she's "still holding on". His incredulity at that moment is understandable when she just fucking told him that she was alone. That she understood why he felt alone. He thought they were on the same page and they obviously are not. So he brings up her parents and reveals to her what she already knows, because he's hoping that if she admits to herself that they were nothing and she has nothing left to hang onto she will be able to let go. So he says "you are nothing, but not to me" because he wants her to know that although she thinks she is nothing, because she comes from nothing, she is not. He understands her. She doesn't have to be alone anymore.Keep in mind Kylo doesn't have friends, so the thought would never cross his mind that she would want to stay and fight for them. That she is not really alone and nothing because of them. I also don't think she left because of her friends. I think she left because that's what she feels is the right thing to do. The people she knew from the first movie were Finn, Leia, and Chewie. She still thinks Finn is still in a coma. Chewie dropped her off, and I don't think she really knows that Leia is on those ships. I think Luke's words about her going straight to the dark without resisting are whats really motivating her. She will resist it at all costs because she feels she is stronger than it. Sorry this was a novel. I had a shit day at work yesterday and couldn't get on to post, so I've been going over this all for the last 2 days. Ben literally says: "They were filthy junk traders. Sold you off for drinking money. They're dead in a pauper's grave in the Jakku desert. You come from nothing. You're nothing, but not to me." The implication behind this is that other people, including her own family, view[ed] her as nothing, but HE doesn't. He will be the ONLY person who gets her, who will make her special in a way she hasn't been special before. This is exactly how abusers talk to their victims, exactly how they isolate them, get them away from the people who love them, so they can bend that person to their own will. It creeped me out hardcore, and I was so glad she got away, because she does have people who love her and care about her. How would she not know Leia is on those ships? Leia was carrying the tracker bracelet that was connected to Rey's tracker bracelet so she could find her way back to the Resistance. To "light her way home." So, if she's getting back to the Resistance by following the path to Leia's bracelet... IDK. I think Rey probably had a lot of motivations for leaving Ben and going back to the Rebellion. Keep in mind, she spent her formative years admiring and dreaming about Rebel fighters and then found a place among the Rebellion. I think she feels alone because two of the people she connected with most previously are lost to her: Han is dead, Finn is in a coma (or so she believes). And she realizes she's on a path where none of her friends can follow her and that, contrary to her fantasies about Rebels and Jedis, she's realizing is actually much more complicated and challenging. Ben may understand what it's like to have an immense power other people want to use for their own ends, but he came from a relatively pampered upbringing and has been willing to turn away from people who loved him, including his own mother, in order to pursue power for its own sake. I don't think that appeals to Rey at all because she sees power for the double-edged sword it is, probably because she grew up without it, and Ben doesn't. Ben doesn't understand her. But he literally revealing to her what he read in HER OWN MIND. So it's what she already believes. She believes her parents are nobody. She is nobody. And her family did view her as nothing. They sold her. You don't get more unloving than that. And who the hell is he isolating her from? He doesn't know she has friends in the galaxy waiting for her. She told him she was alone. He knows she was with Luke, but he's obviously far from a loving and caring teacher at this point. So he asks her, no implores her to join him, so they won't have to be alone and she won't have to feel like a nobody. Because that's what she thinks of herself since he read it in her own mind. Maybe he could have said it in a better way. But it really wouldn't fit his character. It's not like he's had much experience talking to people. Yes, I understand that is similar language to an abuser, but given the context and the fact that it's Star Wars, I think it's a little far fetched in this instance to apply that to this instance. If the directors wanted us to know that Kylo was being mentally abusive to Rey they would have done it in a much less subtle way.
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Post by sheilathetank on Dec 20, 2017 9:52:56 GMT -6
I am so confused by this theory. I need more info. How would she not remember any of this? Why wouldn't Kylo use that as his trump card for her to join him? "Your parents are my parents and we should be a team, sis". How would Luke not remember her? If he thought she was dead you would think he would freak the fuck out that she was really alive. If Kylo wanted her to never train why would he tell her she needed a teacher? If he put her there to protect her why did he break into her mind, tie her up, and try to kill her? Rey doesn't remember her early childhood. Why? If she's nobody, why wouldn't she remember her early years or her parents? Was it just because she was young? If so, that would also apply if she WASN'T nobody. If she was hidden away by someone with Force abilities, then the additional experiences of trauma and potentially Jedi mind tricks are also plausible explanations for why she doesn't remember. And let's say Ben does drop the bomb that they're siblings. He knows that more than anything, Rey wants a family. If Ben said, "Rey, I am your brother. I killed our dad, whom you liked, and am willing to let my army kill our mom, whom you also like, too. Join me," do you think she'd be down with that? I don't think she'd want to destroy Ben or anything, but I do think it would give her even more reason to go back to the Rebellion to find her mother. Ben's only bargaining chip with Rey is that she's all alone in this world, and no one gets her but him. If it turns out she has a family and a pre-ordained place in the world, Ben loses all his power over her. He may be her brother, but he's demonstrated he doesn't value those family bonds the same way she does. If Luke truly thought she was dead, there's a possibility he might not have recognized her. Vader and Luke didn't instantly recognize each other as father and son, and it took even longer for everyone to realize the additional connection w/ Leia. I mean, Vader and Leia met in person, and Vader had no idea who she was. In which case, it wouldn't be outrageous that they might not realize that Rey was someone they'd known as a child. And they may assume that whatever connection they felt with her was due to her power, and nothing else. Ben was pretty young when he went over to the Dark Side, and he did so because he believed his uncle was going to murder him for his power. If he believed his sister might have the same power, why wouldn't he want to hide her away? And if he was not 100% about going over to the Dark Side, it would make sense that he wouldn't necessarily want to bring her with him to protect her. Especially since Snoke, who when he was younger wielded a lot of power over him, might have wanted to use her in ways Ben wouldn't have liked. When he got older, though, and she showed up, clearly having figured out enough on her own to get as far as she had, training her himself would be the BEST thing. What would be the alternative? Send her back to Luke and Leia to use against him? Or have her join him? Ben tried to break into her mind because he believed she had critical information to help him locate Luke, whom he wants dead. I don't think he's ever tried to outright kill her. Hold her captive, yes. Try to find ways to turn him to his side, yes. A lot like Vader with Luke. Vader wanted Luke on his side, to help him. But I also think, when push comes to shove, if Ben thinks Rey will get in the way of his power, he would kill her, just like he killed his dad. It may not be his plan A, but he'd do it if he had to. Ummmmm how old do you think he was when he went to the Dark Side? Kylo was born in 5ABY the TLJ was in 34ABY, and the novel Bloodline was set in 28ABY. In that canon novel Ben is still training under Luke and Leia has been in contact with them. We don't know what his training status is, but he's obviously not gone to the dark yet and the other jedi are still alive. So at a minimum he was 23 when he went to the dark and he is 29 now. I don't consider that really young. There is only a 10 year age gap between Kylo and Rey. If he hid her he would have done it after he turned. So she would have been a minimum of 13. She is definitely not 13 when we see her yelling on Jakku for that ship to "come back!"
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Post by theseaword on Dec 20, 2017 10:03:25 GMT -6
I think Ben was dishing out some truth that he knew would hurt her, as I way to drive her to team “burn it all down”. I don’t think he was doing it to hurt her or abuse her. I think he did it because he views the two of them as the same (they are not) and he thought she would come to the same conclusions he did (that the world is shit and needs to be rebuilt). She didn’t. She recognized that he made the wrong choice, and that she wasn’t alone. They are similar in a lot of ways, but ultimately she rejects his dark world view, even after recognizing that her parents were shit heels.
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athn64
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Post by athn64 on Dec 20, 2017 10:28:50 GMT -6
@sheliathetank I agree with all of that. Rey was looking for answers and she found them but not the way she wanted.
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athn64
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Post by athn64 on Dec 20, 2017 10:34:01 GMT -6
I think Ben was dishing out some truth that he knew would hurt her, as I way to drive her to team “burn it all down”. I don’t think he was doing it to hurt her or abuse her. I think he did it because he views the two of them as the same (they are not) and he thought she would come to the same conclusions he did (that the world is shit and needs to be rebuilt). She didn’t. She recognized that he made the wrong choice, and that she wasn’t alone. They are similar in a lot of ways, but ultimately she rejects his dark world view, even after recognizing that her parents were shit heels. Yeah. He thinks she's already well on her way. That's what he tells her in the elevator. I saw you turn to me. He thinks it's a foregone conclusion
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Post by sheilathetank on Dec 20, 2017 10:34:35 GMT -6
I think Ben was dishing out some truth that he knew would hurt her, as I way to drive her to team “burn it all down”. I don’t think he was doing it to hurt her or abuse her. I think he did it because he views the two of them as the same (they are not) and he thought she would come to the same conclusions he did (that the world is shit and needs to be rebuilt). She didn’t. She recognized that he made the wrong choice, and that she wasn’t alone. They are similar in a lot of ways, but ultimately she rejects his dark world view, even after recognizing that her parents were shit heels. Yes! This @heartbot. I mean yeah, he was manipulating her, but I don't think he was intentionally trying to be abusive. He doesn't know how to influence people any other way than being manipulative. It's not like he's been surrounded by excellent role models. So instead of fucking talking to her like a normal fucking person, like before on the island, he panicked and reverted back to his old ways. It's just that at no point during that scene did I say to myself "wow, he's emotionally abusing her." Instead I saw someone who was desperate and scared of losing the closest thing he's had in a while to love and caring, that he resorted to shit talking. More like mud slinging argument than a "you'll never be anything without me". You can tell he regretted every fucking thing about it when she closed the door on his face on the salt planet.
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Post by sheilathetank on Dec 20, 2017 10:35:53 GMT -6
Ummmmm how old do you think he was when he went to the Dark Side? Kylo was born in 5ABY the TLJ was in 34ABY, and the novel Bloodline was set in 28ABY. In that canon novel Ben is still training under Luke and Leia has been in contact with them. We don't know what his training status is, but he's obviously not gone to the dark yet and the other jedi are still alive. So at a minimum he was 23 when he went to the dark and he is 29 now. I don't consider that really young. There is only a 10 year age gap between Kylo and Rey. If he hid her he would have done it after he turned. So she would have been a minimum of 13. She is definitely not 13 when we see her yelling on Jakku for that ship to "come back!" Ah. Well that timeline blows things up a bit. I thought I'd read it had been 14 years between Ben burning the temple/killing everyone and TFA. So that changes a lot of things. Now you see how I was so confused as to how she wouldn't remember any of this? lol.
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Post by sheilathetank on Dec 20, 2017 11:27:54 GMT -6
Yes! This @heartbot . I mean yeah, he was manipulating her, but I don't think he was intentionally trying to be abusive. He doesn't know how to influence people any other way than being manipulative. It's not like he's been surrounded by excellent role models. So instead of fucking talking to her like a normal fucking person, like before on the island, he panicked and reverted back to his old ways. It's just that at no point during that scene did I say to myself "wow, he's emotionally abusing her." Instead I saw someone who was desperate and scared of losing the closest thing he's had in a while to love and caring, that he resorted to shit talking. More like mud slinging argument than a "you'll never be anything without me". You can tell he regretted every fucking thing about it when she closed the door on his face on the salt planet. Eh, I don't really care that he hasn't had good role models as an adult on how to be a decent person. He wasn't raised entirely by bad guys. I mean, Rey grew up in a complete vacuum of any sort of kindness or compassion or integrity, and she somehow figured out how not to be a shit. What so terrible happened to Ben that made him the way he is? Even knowing that Luke tried to kill him, he was sent off for training long before that because his mother saw the direction he was going. He may not have had the rosiest childhood, but I can't be all, "poor widdle Ben" about his upbringing or the way he acts now. I don't have a lot of sympathy for the character, and I'm not willing to make excuses for him. This is a person who would murder his own father to get what he wanted. Who has at least enough good in him to recognize what he's doing is wrong, and then does it anyhow. I don't feel bad for him that he regretted that his efforts to bring Rey over to the dark side with him didn't work. And I sure as hell don't think he deserves Rey or that Rey deserves him. Sympathy? No, I don't have that. I just can see why he is the way he is and what why he has done and said what he has. I mean Anakin murdered a fuck ton of children, choked his pregnant wife til she passed out, and then went on a killing spree across the galaxy, but everyone was all "there's still good in him". If we can extend the olive branch to Anakin, I will do the same for Kylo. People have come back from worse. Side note I really hope he doesn't. Having another bad guy turn good, save the farm, and then sacrifice himself for his friends is so over and done. Homeboy needs some Wreck It Ralph bad guy anon in his life.
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Post by sheilathetank on Dec 20, 2017 11:42:53 GMT -6
oh, I thought of something else. When Kylo is flying his wannabe tie fighter he hones in on Leia and decides not to shoot. The two fighters flanking him do though and we see Leia "blow up". So we assume Kylo thinks she's dead. Does he ever acknowledge that she isn't. Does he know she's alive? Do we automatically assume he force senses this?
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Post by theseaword on Dec 20, 2017 12:08:25 GMT -6
oh, I thought of something else. When Kylo is flying his wannabe tie fighter he hones in on Leia and decides not to shoot. The two fighters flanking him do though and we see Leia "blow up". So we assume Kylo thinks she's dead. Does he ever acknowledge that she isn't. Does he know she's alive? Do we automatically assume he force senses this? I assume he knows she is alive because of the Force. I also assume he knows she is behind the blast shield door on the mineral planet when he gives the order to kill everyone, so he's now hardened his resolve to do what he couldn't do earlier in the film (kill his past).
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Post by theseaword on Dec 20, 2017 12:09:33 GMT -6
I love talking Star Wars again. Star Wars has totally overshadowed Christmas this season for me, haha.
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Post by sheilathetank on Dec 20, 2017 12:20:34 GMT -6
I love talking Star Wars again. Star Wars has totally overshadowed Christmas this season for me, haha. It's really nice to have these discussions. There is only so much my husband can handle before he's like "STAHP!". I tend to obsess and spiral over this particular fandom. It's the only one I do, so he tolerates a lot of it and loves it for me. When TFA came out, I couldn't get tickets early, so by the time I saw it, the discussions on here were already 20 pages deep. I made sure to see this one as soon as possible so I could talk SW with people who get me.
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Post by sheilathetank on Dec 20, 2017 12:57:15 GMT -6
Sympathy? No, I don't have that. I just can see why he is the way he is and what why he has done and said what he has. I mean Anakin murdered a fuck ton of children, choked his pregnant wife til she passed out, and then went on a killing spree across the galaxy, but everyone was all "there's still good in him". If we can extend the olive branch to Anakin, I will do the same for Kylo. People have come back from worse. Side note I really hope he doesn't. Having another bad guy turn good, save the farm, and then sacrifice himself for his friends is so over and done. Homeboy needs some Wreck It Ralph bad guy anon in his life. Vader ended up turning on the Emperor, striking a nearly-fatal blow to the Empire, and dying for it. There's a big difference between finding redemption in that arc versus a lot of folks who are actively cheerleading a romantic relationship between Ben and Rey. I just can't. Even if he manages to redeem himself somehow, I don't want a romantic relationship between him and Rey. Fair enough. It will be interesting to see what surprises are in store for the next movie. As was proven in this one, everyone's theories were wrong anyways.
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athn64
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Post by athn64 on Dec 20, 2017 19:47:55 GMT -6
I'd also like to add that when we first see Rose crying over her sister with the medallion in her hand, I thought they had been lovers not sisters, and kind of wish they had been.
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Leaf 🌱
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Post by Leaf 🌱 on Dec 20, 2017 20:40:32 GMT -6
I just really wish they hadn’t given Rose the Star Wars version of Juno’s hairstyle. Holdo’s purple hair didn’t bother me half as much.
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dragonflyinn
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Post by dragonflyinn on Dec 20, 2017 20:50:00 GMT -6
I just really wish they hadn’t given Rose the Star Wars version of Juno’s hairstyle. Holdo’s purple hair didn’t bother me half as much. YES. This annoyed me too much haha
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Post by sheilathetank on Dec 21, 2017 9:20:11 GMT -6
I just really wish they hadn’t given Rose the Star Wars version of Juno’s hairstyle. Holdo’s purple hair didn’t bother me half as much. I knew I recognized it from somewhere! I wonder if they were trying to make her look young? I still think they failed hard on the costumes and species.
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Lakes
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Post by Lakes on Dec 22, 2017 6:41:43 GMT -6
Since we're talking about Rey's parents
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Post by sheilathetank on Dec 22, 2017 7:59:06 GMT -6
Since we're talking about Rey's parents I read an article that brought up the fact that Rey pretty much spent the entire moving bossing Chewie around and when are we going to see Chewie stand up for himself. Yes, Han is dead, but that doesn't mean Rey gets to fill those shoes. The life debt is complete and even if it wasn't, wouldn't it pass through Han's family so Leia and then Ben. Could you imagine the internal struggle that Chewie would be going through if that was how it works and Leia dies and now he has to protect Kylo and go to the dark side. I want to see that.
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Leaf 🌱
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Post by Leaf 🌱 on Dec 22, 2017 13:53:53 GMT -6
I just found out it’s widely accepted that Captain Phasma died and I strongly disagree. Im pretty sure we’ll see her again in episode IX.
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athn64
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Post by athn64 on Dec 22, 2017 15:39:56 GMT -6
I just found out it’s widely accepted that Captain Phasma died and I strongly disagree. Im pretty sure we’ll see her again in episode IX. I agree with you. No body, plus she survived Starkiller and took a blaster shot no issue. She's tough, she'll be back.
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Post by AnnPerkins on Dec 27, 2017 10:54:35 GMT -6
I just found out it’s widely accepted that Captain Phasma died and I strongly disagree. Im pretty sure we’ll see her again in episode IX. I agree with you. No body, plus she survived Starkiller and took a blaster shot no issue. She's tough, she'll be back. And we'll all say, wait, why are you here again? What a waste of a character and Gwendoline Christie.
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Post by AnnPerkins on Dec 27, 2017 11:01:35 GMT -6
We just saw it last night, so I've just been creeping on through this thread. I am by no means a super fan, but I really enjoy the Star Wars universe and the stories it has to tell.
Did you guys catch that Rey took the Jedi books from the island? Near the end, Finn opens a drawer on the Falcon while tending to Rose and you can see the binding of the books. When Yoda sets the tree on fire, he tells Luke that there is nothing in the tree that she doesn't already possess. We initially think it's a metaphor, but with the falcon scene we learn he's being literal. Girlfriend stole his books. DH (an actual superfan) did not initially notice them, so I'm on a real high about catching something he didn't since he usually notices these kinds of things first.
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athn64
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Post by athn64 on Dec 27, 2017 11:39:53 GMT -6
We just saw it last night, so I've just been creeping on through this thread. I am by no means a super fancy, but I really enjoy the Star Wars universe and the stories it has to tell. Did you guys catch that Rey took the Jedi books from the island? Near the end, Finn opens a drawer on the Falcon while tending to Rose and you can see the binding of the books. When Yoda sets the tree on fire, he tells Luke that there is nothing in the tree that she doesn't already possess. We initially think it's a metaphor, but with the falcon scene we learn he's being literal. Girlfriend stole his books. DH (an actual superfan) did not initially notice them, so I'm on a real high about catching something he didn't since he usually notices these kinds of things first. I totally saw that! DH and I laughed about it
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Post by Dramaphile on Dec 27, 2017 12:17:15 GMT -6
We just saw it last night, so I've just been creeping on through this thread. I am by no means a super fancy, but I really enjoy the Star Wars universe and the stories it has to tell. Did you guys catch that Rey took the Jedi books from the island? Near the end, Finn opens a drawer on the Falcon while tending to Rose and you can see the binding of the books. When Yoda sets the tree on fire, he tells Luke that there is nothing in the tree that she doesn't already possess. We initially think it's a metaphor, but with the falcon scene we learn he's being literal. Girlfriend stole his books. DH (an actual superfan) did not initially notice them, so I'm on a real high about catching something he didn't since he usually notices these kinds of things first. I was wondering if she took them, or if Yoda floated them into the Falcon without her knowing for her to find later. I totally didn't catch that line being literal, though.
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Post by sheilathetank on Dec 27, 2017 12:25:36 GMT -6
We just saw it last night, so I've just been creeping on through this thread. I am by no means a super fan, but I really enjoy the Star Wars universe and the stories it has to tell. Did you guys catch that Rey took the Jedi books from the island? Near the end, Finn opens a drawer on the Falcon while tending to Rose and you can see the binding of the books. When Yoda sets the tree on fire, he tells Luke that there is nothing in the tree that she doesn't already possess. We initially think it's a metaphor, but with the falcon scene we learn he's being literal. Girlfriend stole his books. DH (an actual superfan) did not initially notice them, so I'm on a real high about catching something he didn't since he usually notices these kinds of things first. I saw it and was annoyed by it. Why feign that you are starting fresh when you aren't? I feel more and more like the next one is going rehash episode 7 and nothing will come of what happened in this movie.
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