NamasteBirches
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Post by NamasteBirches on Jan 9, 2018 15:57:08 GMT -6
We just saw it today finally!!! This was basically me when Luke did that mega Jedi mind trick on Kylo at the end... That was amazing.
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Taitai
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Post by Taitai on Jan 10, 2018 7:15:32 GMT -6
I finally was able to see the film, and there was a lot about it that I liked: the Rey/Kylo fight with the red guards, the prominence of strong women in leadership positions, the scene where purple hair admiral slices the first order ship in half by hyperspacing the cruiser into it (and the use of silence at that part), the beautiful red visuals on the salt planet, all the scenes with Yoda & Chewbacca, and pretty much every scene between Kylo and Rey. I also thought Adam Driver, Mark Hamill, and Daisy Ridley did fantastic acting jobs.
However, I left the theater feeling kind of let down. I just had this feeling like the film was too haphazardly put together and not really thought through enough. Maybe my expectations were too high, but it just didn't really do it for me. I loved Rogue One and really enjoyed TFA, so this is probably my least favorite film since Disney has taken over.
I think the haphazard feeling comes from some pretty gaping plot holes and non-sensical behavior that struck me as I was watching, and have gnawed at me since. Examples:
-the timeline of this film is literally minutes after TFA. How the heck is the rebellion only down to 3 ships and like 400 fighters? I feel like they had a much larger force in TFA, and it just seemed odd that the rebellion felt so much smaller at the start of this film, as they picked up right after TFA.
-The big purpose of getting to that salt planet was to send a call for help to their allies, because the first order was blocking the rebel's communications. Then how the heck was Poe able to call Maz from the cruiser? And why didn't he just ask her to put out the call for help while they were chatting?
-How TF did Finn drag Rose all the way back through the front door on the salt planet. Like...there was nobody left out on that battle field except for a ton of imperial walkers...there's no way.
-Rose kissing Finn was out of nowhere and it wasn't as impactful as it could have been. I like how in Empire there had been a lot of chemistry and tension leading up to the Han/Leia kiss, but this kiss had none of that and it just seemed really random.
-Finn's fight with Phasma was too short. Her whole role in this movie seemed pointless.
-Snoke's wardrobe gave me the Hugh Hefner vibe...did not like. Seemed weird and not very Star Wars like. Also, he was way too easy to kill, and I wish they had given more background on how he and the First Order rose to prominence.
-Why didn't purple haired admiral just tell Poe what the plan was (using cloaked transporters to get to the salt planet)? Could have saved everyone a lot of trouble, esp after Poe freaked out about how the transporters would be unarmed and sitting ducks when he saw they were filling them up. Why not just add in there - oh yeah, we're going to cloak them so they can get to that old base unnoticed (instead of waiting to tell him until after Leia stunned him). Problem solved - Poe wouldn't have sent Rose and Finn on that crazy casino mission, and then the code breaker wouldn't have been able to tell the first order about the cloaked transports in the first place. It just seems like sloppy writing - I didn't like the Finn/Rose story line in general. In prior Star Wars films, the rebel leadership always had these mission planning briefings which everyone attended - each film has a scene like this - so I just don't get why it had to be a secret. Really makes no sense.
-I was also irritated by how the rebellion just got smoked to like only 10 ppl, and magically all the main characters survived. I get that failure is a theme in the movie, but due to the plot holes above, I was sitting there being like...a lot of this could have been avoided and this doesn't make sense. Failure/catastrophic loss isn't inherently bad and can be done well - as it was in Rogue One. However, a lot of the losses in TLJ seemed avoidable (due to plot holes) and I am irked at the writers for that. I wish they had taken the time to tighten things up and made the story a bit more logical. Then I would have been able to accept such heavy losses without getting frustrated.
So, I guess I have mixed feelings on the whole thing. Yes, it was entertaining and fun to watch, and a lot of the acting was really good (esp in the Rey plot line). However, the lack of attention to detail when it came to the plot bothered me. I'm hoping Episode 9 will be a little more thought through. I feel like plot details are where JJ shined in TFA and Rian wasn't as concerned with them in TLJ.
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Post by theseaword on Jan 10, 2018 7:44:52 GMT -6
I saw it again two nights ago. I really enjoyed my second viewing. Especially the last act. Whereas the first time around I was like “ohhh this is still going??” this time I really appreciated all the visuals in the final battle. Beautiful!
And I was wrong about Finn. He does have an arc, it’s there. It’s not my preferred arc for him, but he doesn’t start and end the movie exactly the same and just do plot stuff, like I alleged. His thing is moving from running away from his fear and thinking of only himself and his friends, to committing to fighting for what he believes in/what’s right. So I take back that criticism.
Also I am back on team “kylo Is doomed”. My original thought leaving the theater the first time was that he was doomed, and then I talked myself out of it. But now I think his only redemption will come through his force soulmate, Rey. And he is ruined.
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Post by theseaword on Jan 10, 2018 7:57:42 GMT -6
Taitai I think some of that logistal stuff is valid, but that’s not the stuff that bothers me in a space adventure film, so that’s why I’m not directly replying to it. Not because I think you’re necessarily wrong. I do think that Holdo didn’t tell Poe about her plan because she didn’t fucking trust him, and that’s valid. He overruled Leia in the first scene. He’s a hot head who thinks he has all the answers. The whole point of Poe’s arc was to fail and then have to confront this fact about himself. If Holdo said “we are doing this”, Poe probably still would have done what he thought was best anyway, because that’s who he was before his arc.
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NamasteBirches
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Post by NamasteBirches on Jan 10, 2018 8:09:15 GMT -6
Also, I hated purple hair. So random.
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Post by Dramaphile on Jan 10, 2018 8:13:56 GMT -6
Taitai I think some of that logistal stuff is valid, but that’s not the stuff that bothers me in a space adventure film, so that’s why I’m not directly replying to it. Not because I think you’re necessarily wrong. I do think that Holdo didn’t tell Poe about her plan because she didn’t fucking trust him, and that’s valid. He overruled Leia in the first scene. He’s a hot head who thinks he has all the answers. The whole point of Poe’s arc was to fail and then have to confront this fact about himself. If Holdo said “we are doing this”, Poe probably still would have done what he thought was best anyway, because that’s who he was before his arc. Agreed, why share vital strategy information with someone who has been demoted for making bad decisions? Poe means something to the viewer, but in the grand scheme of Rebel strategy in the eyes of Leia and Holdo, he is nothing but a pilot. He has to learn that his impulsiveness is his failure, and his inability to trust that someone else has a plan to see this through. It's part of his journey to hopefully become a real leader. But on that ship with Holdo and Leia, he is not a leader, just a pilot who thinks he has something to prove and knows better than everyone else.
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Post by Dramaphile on Jan 10, 2018 8:18:29 GMT -6
Also, I hated purple hair. So random. I didn't mind it. I love that they made her so feminine and the opposite of the stereotypical masculine, armored female commander who could practically be mistaken for a man. Her femininity is a counterpoint to the power she wields, and is one reason why Poe immediately discounts her when she takes command. "How could someone who looks like that command a rebellion?" is his reaction to finding out who she is. It's the toxic masculinity in that reaction that is his downfall in not accepting her command decisions.
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NamasteBirches
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Post by NamasteBirches on Jan 10, 2018 8:39:37 GMT -6
Also, I hated purple hair. So random. I didn't mind it. I love that they made her so feminine and the opposite of the stereotypical masculine, armored female commander who could practically be mistaken for a man. Her femininity is a counterpoint to the power she wields, and is one reason why Poe immediately discounts her when she takes command. "How could someone who looks like that command a rebellion?" is his reaction to finding out who she is. It's the toxic masculinity in that reaction that is his downfall in not accepting her command decisions. I didn't mind the rest of her, I just didn't like her hair. Maybe a shade less purple would have been okay. It was just comical to me when I first saw her.
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Post by theseaword on Jan 10, 2018 8:47:35 GMT -6
I liked her hair but not her dress. Poor female leaders. Always gotta talk about the looks!
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Post by theseaword on Jan 10, 2018 11:53:49 GMT -6
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Post by theseaword on Jan 10, 2018 11:54:57 GMT -6
FTR, I survived.
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athn64
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Post by athn64 on Jan 10, 2018 12:43:51 GMT -6
Me too. I just got a dirty look.
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byjove
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Post by byjove on Jan 10, 2018 12:51:28 GMT -6
I didn't mind the purple hair, it seemed very Laura Dern to me. I loved all of the interaction between Kylo and Rey. I thought it was powerful on screen. I didn't always get a romantic vibe, but there is definitely an intimate connection. I thought that Rey probably had non important parents, which was reinforced by the stable boy having jedi like powers, but @heartbot has me reconsidering. Maybe Kylo and Rey's intimate connection is from being siblings. I am really intrigued how they are going to handle Leia in the next movie.
Can I ask an obvious and probably dumb question, but why is it called the last jedi? Is this reference to Luke? But wasn't Rey training as a jedi? Is she the last jedi? I have to say it really puzzled me (but take this with a grain of salt... it totally blew my mind to learn that storm troopers were actual people in TFA, I always assumed they were some type of droid).
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NamasteBirches
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Post by NamasteBirches on Jan 10, 2018 13:03:44 GMT -6
I also got a lot of Harry Potter vibes in this movie. The whole Kylo/Rey connection reminded me of Harry & Voldemort. Rey being a "nobody" but having Jedi powers reminded me of Hermione. There were a couple others but I'm blanking right now.
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Post by theseaword on Jan 10, 2018 13:05:15 GMT -6
I didn't mind the purple hair, it seemed very Laura Dern to me. I loved all of the interaction between Kylo and Rey. I thought it was powerful on screen. I didn't always get a romantic vibe, but there is definitely an intimate connection. I thought that Rey probably had non important parents, which was reinforced by the stable boy having jedi like powers, but @heartbot has me reconsidering. Maybe Kylo and Rey's intimate connection is from being siblings. I am really intrigued how they are going to handle Leia in the next movie. Can I ask an obvious and probably dumb question, but why is it called the last jedi? Is this reference to Luke? But wasn't Rey training as a jedi? Is she the last jedi? I have to say it really puzzled me (but take this with a grain of salt... it totally blew my mind to learn that storm troopers were actual people in TFA, I always assumed they were some type of droid). Like WAS the last of the Jedi. Now it’s Rey. I actually think she is something different, but the movie frames her as Jedi 2.0 basically.
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athn64
Ruby
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Post by athn64 on Jan 10, 2018 13:06:57 GMT -6
I didn't mind the purple hair, it seemed very Laura Dern to me. I loved all of the interaction between Kylo and Rey. I thought it was powerful on screen. I didn't always get a romantic vibe, but there is definitely an intimate connection. I thought that Rey probably had non important parents, which was reinforced by the stable boy having jedi like powers, but @heartbot has me reconsidering. Maybe Kylo and Rey's intimate connection is from being siblings. I am really intrigued how they are going to handle Leia in the next movie. Can I ask an obvious and probably dumb question, but why is it called the last jedi? Is this reference to Luke? But wasn't Rey training as a jedi? Is she the last jedi? I have to say it really puzzled me (but take this with a grain of salt... it totally blew my mind to learn that storm troopers were actual people in TFA, I always assumed they were some type of droid). It's twofold really. Luke was the last Jedi and wanted to be the last one ever. But then Rey comes along, and even after Luke is gone, there is still one. And Rey is the last Jedi, at the very end. Of course she has pretty much no real Jedi training, those "lessons" with Luke notwithstanding, so one could argue Luke is still the last official "Jedi" since Rey doesn't know all of the offical ways of one.
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Post by Dramaphile on Jan 10, 2018 13:08:11 GMT -6
I didn't mind the purple hair, it seemed very Laura Dern to me. I loved all of the interaction between Kylo and Rey. I thought it was powerful on screen. I didn't always get a romantic vibe, but there is definitely an intimate connection. I thought that Rey probably had non important parents, which was reinforced by the stable boy having jedi like powers, but @heartbot has me reconsidering. Maybe Kylo and Rey's intimate connection is from being siblings. I am really intrigued how they are going to handle Leia in the next movie. Can I ask an obvious and probably dumb question, but why is it called the last jedi? Is this reference to Luke? But wasn't Rey training as a jedi? Is she the last jedi? I have to say it really puzzled me (but take this with a grain of salt... it totally blew my mind to learn that storm troopers were actual people in TFA, I always assumed they were some type of droid). I think the title refers to both. Luke is, in the beginning of the movie, the Last Jedi, and he wants the Jedi to die with him, but Rey carries on the Jedi legacy, and so I guess at the end, she is the only Jedi left. I don't think the title is literal that Luke really is the Last Jedi, because the child with Jedi powers at the end shows there is a next generation to come.
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Post by Dramaphile on Jan 10, 2018 13:12:30 GMT -6
I also got a lot of Harry Potter vibes in this movie. The whole Kylo/Rey connection reminded me of Harry & Voldemort. Rey being a "nobody" but having Jedi powers reminded me of Hermione. There were a couple others but I'm blanking right now. There are totally some pieces of music in TLJ that sound very Harry Potter. I think the "special" child who comes from nothing to be the chosen one trope is one that is common in a lot of literature and movies, including HP. Kylo and Snoke have this sort of Tom Riddle/Voldemort thing going on. And the whole thing where the rebels are working against The Order, and the Order have taken over nearly everything (like the Death eaters) and the Rebels are this rag-tag group fighting back. I can definitely see parallels.
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Post by theseaword on Jan 10, 2018 13:23:43 GMT -6
that’s a no on the HP stuff from me, ghost rider. I stole the plastic Kylo Ren color change spoon from my son’s Special edition Cheerios’ box.
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claudia
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Post by claudia on Jan 10, 2018 13:27:30 GMT -6
I didn't mind the purple hair, it seemed very Laura Dern to me. I loved all of the interaction between Kylo and Rey. I thought it was powerful on screen. I didn't always get a romantic vibe, but there is definitely an intimate connection. I thought that Rey probably had non important parents, which was reinforced by the stable boy having jedi like powers, but @heartbot has me reconsidering. Maybe Kylo and Rey's intimate connection is from being siblings. I am really intrigued how they are going to handle Leia in the next movie. Can I ask an obvious and probably dumb question, but why is it called the last jedi? Is this reference to Luke? But wasn't Rey training as a jedi? Is she the last jedi? I have to say it really puzzled me (but take this with a grain of salt... it totally blew my mind to learn that storm troopers were actual people in TFA, I always assumed they were some type of droid). It's twofold really. Luke was the last Jedi and wanted to be the last one ever. But then Rey comes along, and even after Luke is gone, there is still one. And Rey is the last Jedi, at the very end. Of course she has pretty much no real Jedi training, those "lessons" with Luke notwithstanding, so one could argue Luke is still the last official "Jedi" since Rey doesn't know all of the offical ways of one.But she does have the ancient Jedi manuscripts, so she can rebuild. Maybe.
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athn64
Ruby
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Post by athn64 on Jan 10, 2018 13:33:16 GMT -6
It's twofold really. Luke was the last Jedi and wanted to be the last one ever. But then Rey comes along, and even after Luke is gone, there is still one. And Rey is the last Jedi, at the very end. Of course she has pretty much no real Jedi training, those "lessons" with Luke notwithstanding, so one could argue Luke is still the last official "Jedi" since Rey doesn't know all of the offical ways of one.But she does have the ancient Jedi manuscripts, so she can rebuild. Maybe. This is true, but I'm hoping they take her a different way than the traditional Jedi Knight. A New Order. There you go, name for the next movie.
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Post by Dramaphile on Jan 10, 2018 14:31:33 GMT -6
I also got a lot of Harry Potter vibes in this movie. The whole Kylo/Rey connection reminded me of Harry & Voldemort. Rey being a "nobody" but having Jedi powers reminded me of Hermione. There were a couple others but I'm blanking right now. There are totally some pieces of music in TLJ that sound very Harry Potter. I think the "special" child who comes from nothing to be the chosen one trope is one that is common in a lot of literature and movies, including HP. Kylo and Snoke have this sort of Tom Riddle/Voldemort thing going on. And the whole thing where the rebels are working against The Order, and the Order have taken over nearly everything (like the Death eaters) and the Rebels are this rag-tag group fighting back. I can definitely see parallels. Thinking about it more, it's maybe more that Harry Potter draws from the same tropes as A New Hope. You've got this kid, Luke, who comes from nowhere and has powers and he ends up in this trio with the pragmatic female friend and the reckless male friend, and they're going up against the big bad Darth Vader and part of this rebellion against him and the empire. The themes weren't new when HP used them, and they weren't new when Star Wars first used them. Rey has this Luke-like progression, but her story is different because she really does come from nothing (or maybe not).
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Taitai
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Post by Taitai on Jan 10, 2018 22:17:10 GMT -6
Taitai I think some of that logistal stuff is valid, but that’s not the stuff that bothers me in a space adventure film, so that’s why I’m not directly replying to it. Not because I think you’re necessarily wrong. I do think that Holdo didn’t tell Poe about her plan because she didn’t fucking trust him, and that’s valid. He overruled Leia in the first scene. He’s a hot head who thinks he has all the answers. The whole point of Poe’s arc was to fail and then have to confront this fact about himself. If Holdo said “we are doing this”, Poe probably still would have done what he thought was best anyway, because that’s who he was before his arc. Agreed, why share vital strategy information with someone who has been demoted for making bad decisions? Poe means something to the viewer, but in the grand scheme of Rebel strategy in the eyes of Leia and Holdo, he is nothing but a pilot. He has to learn that his impulsiveness is his failure, and his inability to trust that someone else has a plan to see this through. It's part of his journey to hopefully become a real leader. But on that ship with Holdo and Leia, he is not a leader, just a pilot who thinks he has something to prove and knows better than everyone else. Eh - I think it's just crappy writing. Leadership needs to communicate their plans when lives are at stake like that. All the other movies have the strategy briefings with everyone - including just regular pilots. It just seemed pointless to keep it a secret to me, and not very in touch with the other films like TFA and the original trilogy. I feel like there were more Star Wars/character consistent/logical ways for the writers to set up Finn and Rose for their adventure. This set up just seemed sloppy and silly to me. ETA - I mean, if they want the lesson to be "trust your authority figures at all times - even if they don't answer/brush off your valid concerns," then fine..but I honestly can't blame Poe for trying to figure something else out. I probably would have something similar had I been in his shoes and received such unsatisfactory answers from my leadership. Maybe that makes me an asshole, I dunno 🤷♀️. I do blame Poe for being an idiot and getting the entire bomber squadron killed in the beginning - that was him being totally unreasonable and short-sighted.
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Post by sheilathetank on Jan 11, 2018 11:03:30 GMT -6
Regarding who is the last jedi, I think it is Luke and not Rey. Because no matter how much Rey wants to be, the Jedi and the order behind them are gone. She can rebuild and teach the force but they will not and SHOULD NOT be like it was in the past. Luke saw this when he repeated the past because he used the same damn teaching approach as the jedi council. He does not want that for any future force users. If Rey takes up where he left off history will repeat itself again. She must find balance within both the light and the dark to continue. The way the Jedi were once taught is no longer feasible.
The overall theme of the movie is failure and letting the past die. With Luke dead, the "Jedi order" can start fresh.
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athn64
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Post by athn64 on Jan 11, 2018 11:09:48 GMT -6
Regarding who is the last jedi, I think it is Luke and not Rey. Because no matter how much Rey wants to be, the Jedi and the order behind them are gone. She can rebuild and teach the force but they will not and SHOULD NOT be like it was in the past. Luke saw this when he repeated the past because he used the same damn teaching approach as the jedi council. He does not want that for any future force users. If Rey takes up where he left off history will repeat itself again. She must find balance within both the light and the dark to continue. The way the Jedi were once taught is no longer feasible. The overall theme of the movie is failure and letting the past die. With Luke dead, the "Jedi order" can start fresh. We are on the same wavelength here. Though they do say something at the end about the Jedi not being done. But not the old ways. At least I hope not.
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Post by sheilathetank on Jan 11, 2018 11:21:12 GMT -6
Regarding who is the last jedi, I think it is Luke and not Rey. Because no matter how much Rey wants to be, the Jedi and the order behind them are gone. She can rebuild and teach the force but they will not and SHOULD NOT be like it was in the past. Luke saw this when he repeated the past because he used the same damn teaching approach as the jedi council. He does not want that for any future force users. If Rey takes up where he left off history will repeat itself again. She must find balance within both the light and the dark to continue. The way the Jedi were once taught is no longer feasible. The overall theme of the movie is failure and letting the past die. With Luke dead, the "Jedi order" can start fresh. We are on the same wavelength here. Though they do say something at the end about the Jedi not being done. But not the old ways. At least I hope not. I will lose my mind if they repeat the same story line for a third time.
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Post by sheilathetank on Jan 11, 2018 11:25:22 GMT -6
The Star Wars universe needs a bad guy that's a Zuko not an Azula
Bonus points to anyone who gets this reference.
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athn64
Ruby
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Post by athn64 on Jan 11, 2018 11:30:26 GMT -6
The Star Wars universe needs a bad guy that's a Zuko not an Azula Bonus points to anyone who gets this reference. Maybe this is why I like the Kylo Rey relationship. I ship Zutara hard. I love me some Zuko. Aang is just a whiny child. And Azula is legit insane. ETA and by relationship, I do not mean love. I just mean their interactions. I see Kylo as internally conflicted, even after he makes his choice at the end.
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Post by theseaword on Jan 11, 2018 11:47:41 GMT -6
I also ship Zutara and I thought for sure they were ending up together. I love the Zuko comparison way more than that HP stuff, hahah. I think the Rey/Kylo stuff is definitely sexual, especially on a second viewing (she grabs his thigh while they fight, the visual of him looking at his wet hand after they talk...sorry). But I don’t think they will or should end up together. That’s just one component of the tension between them. And all the tension is fabulous.
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athn64
Ruby
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Post by athn64 on Jan 11, 2018 11:59:02 GMT -6
I also ship Zutara and I thought for sure they were ending up together. I love the Zuko comparison way more than that HP stuff, hahah. I think the Rey/Kylo stuff is definitely sexual, especially on a second viewing (she grabs his thigh while they fight, the visual of him looking at his wet hand after they talk...sorry). But I don’t think they will or should end up together. That’s just one component of the tension between them. And all the tension is fabulous. Lol. Yeah, there is a little bit of that component in. The tension is amazing.
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