cmb
Sapphire
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Post by cmb on Nov 5, 2017 11:33:48 GMT -6
addymac you can try offering a little more right before bed and slowly reducing the amount offered during the night (no more by a half ounce at a time, I’d say). Most of DS2’s bottles are 5oz (2oz at 6:30a, 5oz at 9a, 1p, and 4:30p), but he gets 8oz before bed at 6:45/7p with dinner at 6p. He won’t eat after that last bottle until the morning. What time are you putting him down for the nap that he wakes up at 7:30 from? He may be trying to tell you to make that bedtime. That said, we let both kids drop their MOTN feeds on their own. Happened at 3/4 months for both of them.
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Post by marshian on Nov 5, 2017 11:37:47 GMT -6
addymac - What I've read for most sleep plans is to set an amount of time for the first sleep stretch after bedtime when you will not feed them. Usually 5 hours. If they wake before, send in the partner if you're bfing and they soothe (so no milk close by). After the 5 hours, you feed next wake up if they're hungry. Then eventually you can wean them off other MOTN wakeups by shortening the amount of time they eat if bf, or amount you give them if ff (decrease over time). The stipulation is your pedi is cool with stopping MOTN feedings. Most people wait until at least 4 months to do this. For us, J usually gives us 5-hour first stretch so we're going to stick with that. I'm hoping ST brings her back to just one other wakeup (was doing that for weeks). If not, I'll do the gradual wean for the feed we want to drop.
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piratecat
Diamond
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Post by piratecat on Nov 5, 2017 11:41:48 GMT -6
How do you sleep train or encourage STTN when Baby is still eating every time he wakes up? Like, he was up at 1am and took 6oz last night- that was after waking up from a nap at 7:30, eating 6oz, then another 2oz at 9:30 and then sleeping til 1am. I’m hesitant to try to force him back to sleep bc I think he’s hungry and I don’t want to leave him hungry. How can I try to make him STTN?? I have the same problem with my 5 month old. I know that at 4 months they should technically be able to get enough calories during the day and STTN but with my low supply I'm a bit skeptical he is getting enough during the day and he seems genuinely hungry when he wakes at night. Is your LO on formula? One thing I've read to try is to slowly reduce the amount you feed, one wake up at a time until you wean them off night feedings one by one.
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addymac
Emerald
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Post by addymac on Nov 5, 2017 12:51:00 GMT -6
Thanks ladies! N is BF / bottle fed when DH is around for feedings but he’s only 11 weeks, so I guess I have to wait to start dropping his motn feeds? I go back to work shortly after he turns 4 months and I work nights, so DH will be in charge and I’d like to leave him a STTN baby to minimize issues and to minimize my sadness at not being there for him. Should I wait a few more weeks or try starting now? cmb kids nap schedule is all over the place, it’s not consistent at all so yesterday was just at 7:30, day before was completely different. Idk how to set a nap or sleep schedule 😔 Any book rec’s for sleep training?
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Post by marshian on Nov 5, 2017 13:14:52 GMT -6
addymac - I think that's too young to drop night feeds. I'd wait a few more weeks if he doesn't drop any on his own. For books, I like Precious Little Sleep.
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cmb
Sapphire
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Post by cmb on Nov 5, 2017 13:34:25 GMT -6
addymac we used happiest baby’s sleep book when DS1 was little. Baby sleep site is my go to for quick references.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2017 11:03:42 GMT -6
Hey ladies! I have a question.
A is only 3 months old so I know you can't sleep train yet, but I need to start doing something. He hates sleep. Rarely naps and is up every 2 hours on a "good" night and every hour on a bad night. Bad nights outweigh the good. He always wants to nurse when he gets up. I've tried a pacifier and rocking him back to sleep, but his crying only escalates until I give in and nurse him back to sleep.
It's only me for MOTN duties. MH has a job where he needs unbroken sleep for safety. I've thought about asking him when he has a day off next to come help me break up the nursing cycle. I don't know how to get him to sleep for longer stretches and to stop needing to nurse every wake up. I know he gets enough food.
Wine, cookies, high fives for getting though that novel. 😁
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addymac
Emerald
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Post by addymac on Nov 6, 2017 16:58:33 GMT -6
@easilyunamused no advice just hugs. You’re amazing. I’d be a total mess if N was doing 1-2hr stretches instead of 2-3. Hugs.
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cmb
Sapphire
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Post by cmb on Nov 6, 2017 17:54:55 GMT -6
@easilyunamused unfortunately, unless there is a medical reason for the constant waking, I don’t really know of anything you can do at that age. Some babies just really, really, really hate sleep.
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Post by teachermomtobe on Nov 6, 2017 19:35:23 GMT -6
@easilyunamused, have you looked at Precious Little Sleep blog? They have suggestions based on age. Some that come to mind are making sure you are using sleep aids like swaddles and white noise. You can use a swing. And perhaps try to break the nursing to sleep association during the day and eventually before bed.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2017 23:24:43 GMT -6
cmb, nothing medical that I can tell. Doesn't seem to have a reflux issue either. I think it is that he just hates to sleep. teachermomtobe, I stopped swaddling around 7 weeks because even though he liked it, he'd just break out of it. We do white noise though. I have read through that blog a bit, it didn't have much info that I didn't already try. @icedtea, I'll check that site out. Thanks!
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Post by marshian on Nov 7, 2017 5:41:02 GMT -6
@easilyunamused - Sorry for the sleep woes! I would try separating nursing from bedtime if you haven't already. It might filter down to MOTN wakeups (not using boob to fall asleep). We gradually increased the amount of time between her bedtime meal and putting her down after the bedtime routine.
+1 to white noise. Sleep sacks are great for feeling more secure without swaddling (we stopped swaddling at 8 weeks).
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piratecat
Diamond
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Post by piratecat on Nov 7, 2017 7:21:48 GMT -6
@easilyunamused all the hugs and wine and cookies for you! I can only commiserate because I have been there and don't have great advice because we are still working through frequent wake ups but it does get better, even if incrementally. J has always broken out of swaddles but I kept him swaddled anyway, even if I had to reswaddle during the night. I don't think I would have gotten any sleep without it. We finally had to give it up when he started rolling over in it and that was rough but I agree with marshian that a sleep sack has helped. But you know, J wakes up every 2-3 hours at 5+ months so who am I to talk. So yea, wine!
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piratecat
Diamond
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Post by piratecat on Nov 7, 2017 7:59:49 GMT -6
So after everything being out of whack from transitioning out of swaddles, vacationing, and being sick, we are finally almost back to where we were - 2-2.5 hour chunks. We are still not getting the first 4+ hour stretch we used to get and he was up (but not fussing) from 5 to 6AM... but at least he slept in the side sleeper most of the night (I finally had to slide him over next to me at 6AM and he fell asleep immediately) and didn't fuss much. I've been more diligent about naps and I'm hoping H will take it seriously today. I'm really liking the Huckleberry app - thanks so much for the recommendation, lastkiss!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 8:01:36 GMT -6
piratecat and marshian, I do use sleep sacks. I guess it makes me feel a little better knowing I'm using the right "tricks" so I don't feel like I'm completely failing. I'm super nervous to stop nursing to sleep though. Should I feed him an hour before bed and then try to rock him to sleep once we get into the room?
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piratecat
Diamond
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Post by piratecat on Nov 7, 2017 8:11:12 GMT -6
piratecat and marshian , I do use sleep sacks. I guess it makes me feel a little better knowing I'm using the right "tricks" so I don't feel like I'm completely failing. I'm super nervous to stop nursing to sleep though. Should I feed him an hour before bed and then try to rock him to sleep once we get into the room? I read somewhere to nurse half hour before falling asleep. You could start by just shifting nursing slowly to the beginning of your bedtime routine, so that nursing is the second to last thing you do, than third to last, etc. I also nurse with the lights on and I think they recommend that you nurse in a different room than where he sleeps (I still nurse in the bedroom though because that's where I'm most comfortable). I was nervous too because I thought he would just wake up that much earlier the first shift but that didn't happen.
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Post by lastkiss on Nov 7, 2017 8:19:08 GMT -6
@uneasilyamused it sounds like your baby is overtired which is causing him to not sleep well. I struggled so much with L with this. I highly recommend the Huckleberry app. They figure out what schedule should work for your baby and tips to help get longer stretches. One of my issues with L was by the time he showed cues of being tired he was overtired so I had to put him down before he showed cues. It seems weird putting a happy baby down but watching the clock worked for him.
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Post by marshian on Nov 7, 2017 12:34:03 GMT -6
@easilyunamused - We did a gradual shift. We've ended up feeding her 20-30 minutes before bedtime, depending on how tired she is. Our routine is: Feed Play if she's awake enough Pajamas with short massage Snuggle time (optimally with both mom and dad) where we talk about highlights from our days Story Lay down to sleep
Whole routine is about 20 minutes.
ETA: Feeding an hour before bed if you're currently nursing to sleep seems like a big jump and no likely to work. I would slowly move it up in your routine.
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Post by lildiamondeyes on Nov 7, 2017 15:32:46 GMT -6
@easilyunamused I was also thinking perhaps he is overtired.
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piratecat
Diamond
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Post by piratecat on Nov 7, 2017 15:49:19 GMT -6
I made H download Huckleberry. He's home with the baby and it's fun keeping tabs on how he's doing with naps.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 16:59:00 GMT -6
@easilyunamused I was also thinking perhaps he is overtired. Definitely not for a lack of trying to get him to nap. He's always fighting it. He'll nap when I'm on a walk in the ergo, in the car and sometimes in the stroller. But it's not possible for me to do that multiple times a day.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 0:07:40 GMT -6
Definitely not for a lack of trying to get him to nap. He's always fighting it. He'll nap when I'm on a walk in the ergo, in the car and sometimes in the stroller. But it's not possible for me to do that multiple times a day. How long before you want him to sleep do you start trying? F was fighting naps hardcore. But I start the nap routine after she's been awake for 1 hour 25 minutes/30 minutes no matter what, even if she doesn't seem tired. It depends, but it's usually no longer than 2 hours. MH grabs A around 7 so I can sleep a little longer. He's been absolutely refusing to nap with him lately for no real reason. I tried the whole no nursing to sleep tonight. He just screamed when I put him in the bassinet and screamed until I nursed him again. I've created a nursing monster. He woke up 2 hours later and I tried to rock him back to sleep, cried until I nursed him. I'm so over it.
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addymac
Emerald
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Post by addymac on Nov 8, 2017 7:25:04 GMT -6
Did you guys use the huckleberry app before the recommended five months?
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piratecat
Diamond
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Post by piratecat on Nov 8, 2017 9:00:06 GMT -6
lastkiss, or others that have used Huckleberry app - we are on day 4 of tracking but sleep has been especially bad with cutting tooth. Should I wait until he is more back to his usual sleep schedule before doing my 7 days of tracking? How does the guideline thing work? addymac , I only found out about it just after 5 months but kind of wish I had started sooner. I skimmed through their website and FAQ but don't recall seeing why they recommend 5 months+? My pediatrician talked to us about sleep training at our 4 month appt and said we could start any time we felt comfortable.
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piratecat
Diamond
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Post by piratecat on Nov 8, 2017 9:33:14 GMT -6
@easilyunamused, ugh more hugs. Will he take a pacifier? Will he sleep anywhere else? Swing? RnP?
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Post by gimmesugar on Nov 8, 2017 10:01:01 GMT -6
I am super late to this conversation. My tapatalk app is so weird sometimes. @easilyunamused At 3 months, I was using 1-1.5 hour wake times between naps. Shorter wake time in the morning and longer wake times later in the day. At around 4 months, he could go closer to 2 hours. Day sleep is way harder than night sleep, so nurse to sleep for naps if you have to. We used a swing starting around 2 months I think. I nursed my son to sleep and then put him in the swing (swaddle, dark room, white noise, etc). I also started a pre-nap routine (book, song, some sleep cue words). After maybe a week or so, I could put him down in the swing awake with a pacifier and he could put himself to sleep. Having the right wake time is key, though. Sometimes he fussed and I would have to shush, jiggle the swing, rub his forehead, etc. Better day sleep will help night sleep. At around 3 months, I slowly separated nursing from sleep. Occasionally, I would wake him back up as I laid him down in the bassinet after he nursed to sleep (little eye flutter is all). When I started separating the nursing, all I did at first was nurse and then swaddle, which woke him back up a bit, but I would still rock him a little and sing the lullaby. I also laid him down with a pacifier. If he started fussing, H would go in to jiggle the bassinet, rub his forehead, shush, etc. After he was maybe 3.5 months old, I moved nursing to the beginning of the bedtime routine, but everything else stayed the same. It took him a few days to get used to it. He still fell asleep with a pacifier. I liked the pacifier for this reason...taught him to fall asleep without ME. H doing bedtime soothing helped communicate that nursing was off the table. piratecat I also like the Precious Little Sleep book, blog, and Facebook group, and I'm subscribed to the Baby Sleep Site newsletter. Baby Sleep Scientist also has some good articles. We hired the PLS author for a sleep consult. She actually didn't recommend going full extinction right away for us because my son's temperament was pretty chill (rarely legit cries...more of a fusser). We had a bedtime routine established for a while with nursing ending about 30 minutes before bed. What we changed: H put DS down for bed (sometimes babies handle change better from Dad), and he went into the crib without the pacifier. He went to sleep with no drama, but he had to work through an early waking that was usually a paci reinsertion. Because he's pretty chill, our consultant gave us clearance initially for H to go in and do some tiny soothing (repeat sleep cue words, rub forehead, etc). He put himself back to sleep in 45 minutes, and that was the worst of it ever since. Now we only ever go in if he's wedged himself into a corner of the crib in a weird position, but then we leave immediately and he goes back to sleep. The keys to sleep training IMHO are: 1) Make sure naps happen to prevent overtiredness 2) Make sure you're using age appropriate wake times to build enough sleep pressure before bed. Cap naps if needed to avoid too much day sleep (this has tripped me up once or twice) 3) Have a consistent bedtime that doesn't move more than 15-30 minutes in order to lock in baby's circadian rhythm (the combination of sleep pressure and circadian rhythm is powerful and helps make sure baby doesn't have the stamina to stay awake and complain). 3) Everything starts at bedtime, so the environment when baby falls asleep must be the same in the middle of the night...so nothing on timers. 4) Have a plan and commit to it (both parents). This is essential. Inconsistency just drags out the process. You can't "dabble" in full extinction because if you bail after 1 hour and nurse to sleep, you've only taught baby to cry for at least an hour. It will be that much harder next time. You can go from Ferber (with checks) to full extinction but not the other way around. 5) For younger babies (generally less than 6 months old), you have a few more tools available that can be more gradual...like using the swing to teach baby to fall asleep without you. After 6 months, though, you're getting close to more mobility, and you can't put baby down drowsy anymore. Baby has to go to sleep from wide awake.
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Post by gimmesugar on Nov 8, 2017 10:50:05 GMT -6
I love our nanny but she's letting F get too tired between naps, leading to screaming. Argh Oh no!! We had the same problem with daycare (understandably). It amazed me that people in the childcare business didn't understand wake times. I've had to put a lot of stuff in writing for them. So, when I sign DS in, I write down when his next nap should be based on when he woke up for the day. I also have a sign in the room with his wake time guidelines, and I tell them to message me under certain nap timing circumstances at the end of the day so that I can game plan for bedtime. There was one day where he went 4 hours without a nap, and I was PISSED. He ended up getting sick, but before he went back, I made sure the teachers and the daycare director understood how much of an issue that was. That's when I started writing down nap times.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 11:00:31 GMT -6
piratecat, the pacifier is hit or miss. He'll take it while he's contained (stroller, car seat, ergo) but doesn't always take it while being held. I try to introduce it to him in the MOTN before picking him up when he's fussy and works 1 out of 5 times. He wasn't getting a lot of sleep in the RnP so I transitioned him to the pack in play in my room hoping he'd sleep better around 8 weeks I think. gimmesugar, I'll try some of those tips, thanks!
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Post by gimmesugar on Nov 8, 2017 11:16:22 GMT -6
Oh, funny story about sleep training. When we started the process with DS, I asked my dad about what they did for all 3 of us because I was curious.
They always fed us to sleep and put us in the crib asleep (#1 rule of sleep training broken), and then they would do checks when we cried in the MOTN. Obviously, we wouldn't go back to sleep at that point so they would just let us CIO.
In my mind, I was like, "WTF Dad?! You didn't teach us to go to sleep at bedtime, so of course we cried at night!" We're all adults now and each have great relationships with our parents...because they were (and still are) awesome people. Did they do sleep training "wrong?" Yeah, maybe, but it probably just made it harder on them. It didn't ruin our bond.
Babies don't like change and learning a new skill is hard. No matter which method you choose, there will likely be some complaints and tears, but it's not going to sabotage your bond. Thinking about it that way made me feel much less guilty about sleep training.
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piratecat
Diamond
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Post by piratecat on Nov 8, 2017 11:50:05 GMT -6
piratecat , the pacifier is hit or miss. He'll take it while he's contained (stroller, car seat, ergo) but doesn't always take it while being held. I try to introduce it to him in the MOTN before picking him up when he's fussy and works 1 out of 5 times. He wasn't getting a lot of sleep in the RnP so I transitioned him to the pack in play in my room hoping he'd sleep better around 8 weeks I think. gimmesugar , I'll try some of those tips, thanks! J was never that into pacifiers but then it suddenly changed a few weeks ago and now he loves them. Same with the swing. Babies are ever-changing... just to keep us on our toes I guess.
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