willow
Ruby
Posts: 19,607 Likes: 125,141
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Post by willow on Sept 14, 2023 12:31:57 GMT -6
Yeah, I mean, some of it was definitely things you wouldn't normally pay for as a parent with normal income but as a millionaire, sure, it was nothing compared to what he was actually bringing in from the show. Just really sad how selfish he was about his own kids. Not surprising at all though. I saw the list (I'm only about a third of the way through the audiobook) and some of it was basically expenses from when she was still a kid - like I feel like I did the math and he was counting food from when she was 16 years old. So she legally was your responsibility, she by your religion was still under your authority, but you're itemizing her food and claiming it was income? Yes, exactly. It was almost the end of the book and I couldn't believe there was still something that made me go "WTF" under my breath.
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claudia
Sapphire
Posts: 4,515 Likes: 43,992
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Post by claudia on Sept 14, 2023 12:53:23 GMT -6
The thing that irks me about Michelle though is that even if she was brainwashed, she didn’t grow up brainwashed and she chose to go into this cult and knows that life can be different. It almost makes it worse, to me, that you know life can be different and yet you stand by and let your kids suffer in this way. So, I get this perspective BUT I also think it is important to recognize the real and lasting psychological effects that cults have on people. Cults have plenty of people who start out in the "normal" real world and then get sucked in by one thing or another. JB also was not raised IBLP either. I do not absolve Michelle of all wrongdoing but I also think she sincerely believed she was doing right for her kids based on the IBLP teachings. I think with the Duggars I very much get that someone can be a victim and oppressor at the same time. Michelle is a perfect example. I would say she is a victim of a cult that teaches she is less than, must be silent, etc. However, she is also an adult who has made choices and has acted as oppressor to her children repeatedly. I do think that to some degree, she (and even to some degree JB) were preyed upon when they were vulnerable due to grief - while grieving the loss of a wanted pregnancy, they were told they caused it by using birth control in the past. I think rationally they should have known that this was false. But grief can do funny things, especially if you're trying to find an explanation for the unexplainable. I stand firm that that does not absolve any of the adult Duggars from responsibility, but I can see where it at least initially seeped in.
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willow
Ruby
Posts: 19,607 Likes: 125,141
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Post by willow on Sept 14, 2023 13:04:39 GMT -6
So, I get this perspective BUT I also think it is important to recognize the real and lasting psychological effects that cults have on people. Cults have plenty of people who start out in the "normal" real world and then get sucked in by one thing or another. JB also was not raised IBLP either. I do not absolve Michelle of all wrongdoing but I also think she sincerely believed she was doing right for her kids based on the IBLP teachings. I think with the Duggars I very much get that someone can be a victim and oppressor at the same time. Michelle is a perfect example. I would say she is a victim of a cult that teaches she is less than, must be silent, etc. However, she is also an adult who has made choices and has acted as oppressor to her children repeatedly. I do think that to some degree, she (and even to some degree JB) were preyed upon when they were vulnerable due to grief - while grieving the loss of a wanted pregnancy, they were told they caused it by using birth control in the past. I think rationally they should have known that this was false. But grief can do funny things, especially if you're trying to find an explanation for the unexplainable. I stand firm that that does not absolve any of the adult Duggars from responsibility, but I can see where it at least initially seeped in. yes absolutely, I agree with you on all of this.
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Post by chocolatecake on Sept 14, 2023 14:01:55 GMT -6
Thanks for all the mini recaps willowI’ve occasionally lurked on free Jinger about the Duggars over the years. While that site was able to expose & snark on some things they did, there was still questions. This book seemed to explain with the most details from a firsthand lived experience. I’m proud of Jill for sharing her story and for how far she’s come.* I, too, appreciate the irony of JB handpicking a man for Jill that would end up exposing JB for who he truly was
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Post by donnamartingraduates on Sept 14, 2023 17:33:44 GMT -6
Yeah, I mean, some of it was definitely things you wouldn't normally pay for as a parent with normal income but as a millionaire, sure, it was nothing compared to what he was actually bringing in from the show. Just really sad how selfish he was about his own kids. Not surprising at all though. I saw the list (I'm only about a third of the way through the audiobook) and some of it was basically expenses from when she was still a kid - like I feel like I did the math and he was counting food from when she was 16 years old. So she legally was your responsibility, she by your religion was still under your authority, but you're itemizing her food and claiming it was income? Good grief, by this math Jana owes him big time.
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joy
Global Moderator
TTC, Pg, B&C
Posts: 9,185 Likes: 41,639
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Post by joy on Sept 20, 2023 14:31:28 GMT -6
This long hand-wringing about pants is kind of shocking me in an otherwise sea of stories that don’t. It’s disorienting me. She tries (and hates) alcohol faster than puts on pants!
Yes, I know the background here but hearing her words and literal stress about this is different than being aware of the issue, you know?
Fuck Pops forever, obviously.
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Post by lifesaverz on Sept 21, 2023 9:00:49 GMT -6
I finished the book last night. I loved it. I'm so dang proud of her I can't even believe it. I identified with being the best "approval seeker" in my family (still am), & felt like I could relate to that aspect of things, & being so intensely conflict avoidant, so I was so proud of her setting boundaries later on that I actually teared up a few times. I KNOW how hard that is anxiety-wise, & I didn't even grow up in a cult, so I'm sure it was much worse for her, fighting back against something so strong. That takes so much strength. The emotional journey she described going through these last few years was so intense. I really hope she can find more peace in the years ahead.
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Post by lifesaverz on Sept 21, 2023 9:04:04 GMT -6
One thing I wondered about was the part where JB offered the adult kids 80k, & they had to sign a contract & NDA, Jill didn't sign them but I think the other siblings did. I'm wondering if the nda's they've signed possibly means they can't actually speak out about stuff, even if they wanted to. I even wondered if that possibly limited Jinger in what she could say in her book. I don't know, I'm curious.
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joy
Global Moderator
TTC, Pg, B&C
Posts: 9,185 Likes: 41,639
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Post by joy on Sept 21, 2023 13:38:58 GMT -6
Oh WOW to this conversation with the moderator.
I’m listening to Jill read the book via Audible.
“You treat me worse than you treat your pedophile son.”
EDIT - Jill needs professional help?! Holy shit. The abuse in this conversation is upsetting the shit out of me.
EDITEDIT- never talk outside the family, no thinking for yourself. Look to god to solve your problems and not the world - Jim Bob.
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Post by Hotcoconuts82 on Sept 21, 2023 13:56:22 GMT -6
One thing I wondered about was the part where JB offered the adult kids 80k, & they had to sign a contract & NDA, Jill didn't sign them but I think the other siblings did. I'm wondering if the nda's they've signed possibly means they can't actually speak out about stuff, even if they wanted to. I even wondered if that possibly limited Jinger in what she could say in her book. I don't know, I'm curious. Good point.
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hawkward
Global Moderator
Loss, Infertility
Posts: 19,638 Likes: 123,091
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Post by hawkward on Sept 21, 2023 15:23:01 GMT -6
This long hand-wringing about pants is kind of shocking me in an otherwise sea of stories that don’t. It’s disorienting me. She tries (and hates) alcohol faster than puts on pants! Yes, I know the background here but hearing her words and literal stress about this is different than being aware of the issue, you know? Fuck Pops forever, obviously. My family was like… fundie lite. Fortunately my mom quickly put her foot down but she remained conservative for my entire childhood. Sometimes the absolute dumbest things will trigger anxiety and self-doubt for me. I’m very close with my mom and it’s been interesting talking to her about things as an adult. I’ve told her some of the things that had me convinced I’d be left behind at the Rapture (which was of course happening at any second), and she has been amazing at breaking some of that generational trauma stuff with me for my own kids. But yeah. A lot of the brain washing of little girls was that it wasn’t some big sin that would get you kicked out of heaven. It would be some little slip up that you weren’t expecting, and that you must always always be on guard.
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willow
Ruby
Posts: 19,607 Likes: 125,141
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Post by willow on Sept 22, 2023 8:39:21 GMT -6
One thing I wondered about was the part where JB offered the adult kids 80k, & they had to sign a contract & NDA, Jill didn't sign them but I think the other siblings did. I'm wondering if the nda's they've signed possibly means they can't actually speak out about stuff, even if they wanted to. I even wondered if that possibly limited Jinger in what she could say in her book. I don't know, I'm curious. There was some talk about that over on Dug.gar Sna.rk and the speculation is that many of them probably signed but that most NDAs are unenforceable and it wouldn't be a surprise if the one he had them sign was crappily drafted and unenforceable too.
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Bluebird
Amethyst
Posts: 6,391 Likes: 22,181
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Post by Bluebird on Sept 22, 2023 20:59:55 GMT -6
I’m listening to the book right now. I like listening to memoirs where the author narrates, because I feel like the emotions come through so strongly. This is a great example of that.
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Post by Hotcoconuts82 on Apr 14, 2024 7:33:25 GMT -6
Tw Tw Tw Pregnancy loss
Jill lost a baby girl. She was 4 months pregnant.
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Post by chocolatecake on Apr 14, 2024 14:43:54 GMT -6
🥲🥲 I hope Jill is getting proper support especially from those who understand. I always disliked how MEchelle talked about how her m/c happened because she had done something “wrong” by using birth control. I hope now that her DDs and DILs have gone through them she views things differently.
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Post by Hotcoconuts82 on Apr 14, 2024 15:06:55 GMT -6
🥲🥲 I hope Jill is getting proper support especially from those who understand. I always disliked how MEchelle talked about how her m/c happened because she had done something “wrong” by using birth control. I hope now that her DDs and DILs have gone through them she views things differently. I would stay far away from Michelle if I were her. Jill has talked about having a therapist before. I hope she has learned to love herself.
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willow
Ruby
Posts: 19,607 Likes: 125,141
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Post by willow on Apr 14, 2024 18:24:34 GMT -6
Ugh that is so awful, and so far along. I remember in her book when she talked about how her traumatic 2nd birth put her at higher risk for future pregnancies. Very heartbreaking for her after already so much trauma in her life.
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Post by Hotcoconuts82 on Apr 14, 2024 20:11:03 GMT -6
Ugh that is so awful, and so far along. I remember in her book when she talked about how her traumatic 2nd birth put her at higher risk for future pregnancies. Very heartbreaking for her after already so much trauma in her life. Did she ever say what happened in that second birth?
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willow
Ruby
Posts: 19,607 Likes: 125,141
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Post by willow on Apr 15, 2024 6:43:03 GMT -6
Ugh that is so awful, and so far along. I remember in her book when she talked about how her traumatic 2nd birth put her at higher risk for future pregnancies. Very heartbreaking for her after already so much trauma in her life. Did she ever say what happened in that second birth? Yes, she was in labor for 36 hours and then her uterus ruptured so she had to have an emergency c-section. Her son had a brain bleed and they weren't sure for the first 3 months of his life whether the birth and brain bleed would leave permanent brain damage, as it commonly does. Thankfully, her son was fine and has no lasting brain damage. But after that they weren't sure what the effect of the emergency c section and ruptured uterus would have on future pregnancies/births.
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Post by MelanieCarmichael on Apr 15, 2024 7:30:16 GMT -6
My heart goes out to Jill. A loss at any point is heartbreaking but to be so far along is devastating.
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Post by Hotcoconuts82 on Apr 15, 2024 9:44:02 GMT -6
Did she ever say what happened in that second birth? Yes, she was in labor for 36 hours and then her uterus ruptured so she had to have an emergency c-section. Her son had a brain bleed and they weren't sure for the first 3 months of his life whether the birth and brain bleed would leave permanent brain damage, as it commonly does. Thankfully, her son was fine and has no lasting brain damage. But after that they weren't sure what the effect of the emergency c section and ruptured uterus would have on future pregnancies/births. Oh that's so sad. That girl has had so much trauma
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Post by Hotcoconuts82 on Apr 24, 2024 9:55:27 GMT -6
Jinger posted pics from a movie premiere with Candace Cameron and Mel Gibson. Yikes. Incase anyone is wondering how her deconstruction is going.
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