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Post by tjanca22 on Jun 12, 2017 12:55:42 GMT -6
I don't think so. Every baby is different. Some require more sleep more than others. Remind me, how does he sleep at night? Does he have any MOTN wake ups? You could try pushing his last nap of the day a little bit later so he can make it to 7 without it being a struggle. What time does his last nap end right now? He's STTN from 7 until 6:30 or whenever we wake him up during the week and doesn't wake up typically. If he does he puts himself to sleep. At the moment, his last nap is ending between 3:45 and 4, depending on when he actually falls asleep. I can try leaving him in his crib to see if he falls back asleep for a little longer. I was originally trying to avoid getting too close to bedtime but that doesn't seem to be an issue for him. All of this might go out the window next week when we're back to car ride naps anyway. I wouldn't let him much past 4. A sleep cycle lasts about 50 mins, so in theory, he'd either sleep until about 5, or you'd wake him up during a cycle which could make him a crank! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by goldenlove on Jun 12, 2017 13:14:03 GMT -6
Well he ruined his nice little schedule by taking a short nap at 11 and taking his last nap early. He just woke up. No idea how we'll keep him up until bedtime for this last stretch.
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waitwhat
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Post by waitwhat on Jun 12, 2017 13:17:19 GMT -6
Well he ruined his nice little schedule by taking a short nap at 11 and taking his last nap early. He just woke up. No idea how we'll keep him up until bedtime for this last stretch. Hi, twin. J completely refused his afternoon nap so now he will be up from 11:30 until hopefully 6:30 if he can make it. Which pretty much guarantees from 4-6:30 will be hell and I better open the wine now.
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Post by goldenlove on Jun 12, 2017 13:45:11 GMT -6
Well he ruined his nice little schedule by taking a short nap at 11 and taking his last nap early. He just woke up. No idea how we'll keep him up until bedtime for this last stretch. Hi, twin. J completely refused his afternoon nap so now he will be up from 11:30 until hopefully 6:30 if he can make it. Which pretty much guarantees from 4-6:30 will be hell and I better open the wine now. I really should start drinking wine more often. Or maybe I shouldn't...
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Post by jubilantsquirrel on Jun 13, 2017 11:14:35 GMT -6
I haven't talked too much about our sleep troubles because I felt like they were that bad. But I don't know how much longer I can go on like this.
DS2 still wakes up multiple times a night. Anywhere from 2-6 times a night between the hours of 8pm (bedtime) and 5am (when I nurse him before I leave for work), he's usually up for the day between 7:30-8. At 6.5 months old we've only ever had two nights where he slept 4-4.5 hours straight and that happened at around 3 months old.
I nurse him each time he wakes up because I'm not sure how to tell if he's waking up because he's hungry or if he just can't put himself back to sleep. I put him down sleepy but awake at bedtime and he has no issues putting himself to sleep, it's the MOTN wake ups that are the problem. I always wait 5-10 minutes before going in there to see if he might put himself back to sleep, but that almost never happens. He will not take a bottle MOTN and he also won't take a paci ever. We use the Merlin Magic Sleepsuit still. I tried putting him down without it before and he instantly starts thrashing around like crazy the second I lay him down. We use a fan for white noise.
Sunday night it was bedtime at 8, up at 9, 11, 1, 3 and 4. Last night it was bedtime at 8, up at 11 then again at 12, at which point MH went in to see if he could get him to settle. As soon as MH walked out of the room he started screaming again. He tried going in 10 minute intervals for an hour (so until 1am), at which point I went in and nursed him. Then he was back up again at 3.
Thoughts on what I can do? I'm certainly not against sleep training or even CIO. But it's hard to do MOTN when I don't know if he's crying because he's hungry or what. I'd be happy to get his wake ups to just two a night at this point.
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Post by tjanca22 on Jun 13, 2017 11:21:51 GMT -6
@junilantsquirrel, does anything put him to sleep initially besides the white noise and fan? Can you try waiting 15 mins before going in? Or could you project something on the ceiling for him to watch? Just throwing out some ideas for you so feel free to shoot anything down that might not work.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by jubilantsquirrel on Jun 13, 2017 11:29:34 GMT -6
tjanca22, I have a little star light projection thing in his room, too. It's on a timer and I think it only goes for about 25 minutes. I only use it at bedtime though, I haven't tried turning it on when he wakes up MOTN.
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Post by sophiegrace on Jun 13, 2017 11:53:21 GMT -6
jubilantsquirrel I can only offer hugs and commiseration. Sometimes I can get M back down with shushing and my hand lying across her chest, but more often than not it's only temporary and she wakes up again soon after even more upset.
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Post by jubilantsquirrel on Jun 13, 2017 12:01:01 GMT -6
jubilantsquirrel I can only offer hugs and commiseration. Sometimes I can get M back down with shushing and my hand lying across her chest, but more often than not it's only temporary and she wakes up again soon after even more upset. I've tried that as well and I get the same results as you. At least with nursing I can get him back down in about 15 minutes. When are these babies going to realize that sleep is a beautiful glorious thing?!
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waitwhat
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Post by waitwhat on Jun 13, 2017 12:24:16 GMT -6
jubilantsquirrel how are you doing on solids? I only ask because it seems that J's sleep has improved since we really introduced solids. I always make sure to offer solids at like 5pm and then he goes to bed around 7.
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Post by jubilantsquirrel on Jun 13, 2017 12:31:03 GMT -6
jubilantsquirrel how are you doing on solids? I only ask because it seems that J's sleep has improved since we really introduced solids. I always make sure to offer solids at like 5pm and then he goes to bed around 7. Great, actually! We started about a month ago and he's had apples, pear, banana, carrots and sweet potatoes. He loves all of it except carrots. I usually feed him right after we eat dinner, so around 6:30-6:45. I was really hoping it would help him sleep longer, at least with the first stretch, but no such luck.
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kleigh
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Post by kleigh on Jun 13, 2017 16:52:21 GMT -6
jubilantsquirrel I know I talk a lot about AV since I'm the one getting up with her. But actually AB is probably the worse overnight sleeper (he's better with naps). He is still getting up every 2-3 hours. His night can go like this: 6:00 Bottle and bed 6:30 Wakes crying, pick him up, let him drift back off and put down 8:30-9 Wakes screaming, bottle, can take upwards of an hour to go back down 11 Wakes crying, bottle and back to bed pretty quick 1/2 Wakes crying, bottle and back to bed pretty quick 4ish Wakes, bottle, tries to stay up for the day, H keeps at it until he goes back down 5:30-6 Wakes for the day I say this mostly so you know you're not alone bc it sucks but maybe we just have some one off babies. Part of our problem might be cosleeping bc I think he wants to roll around and MH doesn't give him much leeway to do that for safety reasons. So I'll take that responsibility. It's not quite this bad every night but it's like this more nights than not. I've told H to try to wean some of the bottles bc I think he's just getting up out of habit but AB is so used to getting it that now he wants it (even if just a sip) and won't go back to sleep until he gets it and H obv sleep deprived just wants him back to bed ASAP. I so so so very much wish I had some answers for you. The MOTN feedings are tough. So for us I felt with AV that if she was getting a lot during the day and if she was only taking 1oz (maybe 2mins on bottle) before passing back out, that she was just doing it out of habit. So she's usually up more than twice but I only offer the bottle twice. Instead I pick her up and shush her. So I've recently got her down to 1 (sometimes 2) bottles.. usually 5-6 hours after she goes down, and if need be again 3 hours later (so like midnight and 3am). Can you tell how much he's getting at some of those MOTN feedings? If it's not a lot or if he's only on for a minute before passing out I'd feel comfortable letting him cry through those while you offer other comfort. ETA you don't suspect gas or reflux do you? I think we have rough nights if I feed them solids within a couple hours of their bedtimes bc they get gassy.
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Post by jubilantsquirrel on Jun 13, 2017 17:17:34 GMT -6
kleigh Most of the time it really seems like he's actually hungry. Every once in a while I can tell he's just comfort nursing and not actually eating, but he usually does end up nursing for 10-15 minutes. He's still not the best with bottles, and I'm starting to wonder if he wakes up so much during the night because he's trying to fill up for the next day? I don't know, but when he wakes up for the day at 7:30-8, I'm already at work. I get home just after 3, so 7:30-3 he usually only takes 6-9oz. It doesn't seem like that's very much for an 8 hour period for a 6 month old? At this point with DS1, he was taking 20-25oz while I was at work, but I was gone from 7am-5:30pm then. I nurse him right when I get home and then usually every 1-2 hours until bedtime at 8. I give him solids about 1.5 hours before bed and then I nurse him on both sides at bedtime. Since you mentioned gas now I'm wondering if that's too much and it's giving him an upset stomach. He did have some reflux as a newborn but it seemed to get better. I have recently noticed that he's spitting up a lot more often again. I feel like my response is all over the place, I hope it makes sense!
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danib
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Post by danib on Jun 13, 2017 17:38:34 GMT -6
All I can offer is hugs jubilantsquirrel. H wakes frequently and 99% of the time will only gp back to sleep if I nurse him. If its only been an hour or so I can USUALLY get him back to sleep with some shushing and bum patting, but if it's been 2 hours or more since last feeding then no amount of shushing will suffice. One thing I have figured out (for my kid) is that the longer I let him fuss, the longer it will take me to get him back to sleep. Time I have tried giving him time to settle on his own, he goes from fussing to full on screaming and once he is at that point he is fully awake and not interested in going back to sleep. So I respond immediately and he remains in that half-conscious state long enough to eat and then passes right back out again.
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Post by sophiegrace on Jun 13, 2017 18:38:52 GMT -6
jubilantsquirrel I don't have have access at work and then when I got home it was the end of day craziness, but I was coming to ask about his daytime intake. I would bet you're onto something there with him trying to fill himself up. At six months total intake for BM/formula is around 25-32 ounces. Where some of these babies are cool with eating all day and then only having one or no feedings at night, your stubborn little dude has switched his schedule.
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hangry
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Post by hangry on Jun 13, 2017 18:58:00 GMT -6
jubilantsquirrel this was us about month ago. Weve progressed to only 3 wake ups a night, very occasionally 2 wake ups. So it's been a slow process but at least its getting better. What position does he sleep in? The first time i started getting any long stretches was when i put her down on her stomach. Now i put her down on her back but she always rolls onto her stomach. She just didnt know that she liked that position before. Secondly, i did some sleep training. I stopped nursing to sleep at bedtime. And then when she cried, i started by doing 5 minute check ins. But it seemed like that wasnt helping her, so now i do CIO. I try not to go in there to feed her before 3 hours. So some nights i am feeding her a lot still. I really do think we are getting some longer stretches because she now know how to put herself to sleep. She isnt totally consistent but thats more because im not consistent. Sometimes i nurse her to sleep. Sometimes i go in right when shes crying and sometimes i let her cio. I know this is bad but my 2 kids are sharing a room so i have to work around that. The only other thing that stuck out is how little ds2 is eating during the day. Of course hes up all night trying to make up for that! Does he not like the bottle? Have you tried a sippy cup instead?
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Post by jubilantsquirrel on Jun 13, 2017 19:37:28 GMT -6
danib, I was trying the patting shushing if it had been less than 2 hours as well, but had similar results to you. It definitely takes longer to settle him if he's been crying for a little bit. hangry, he's still in the Merlin, so he sleeps on his back. I've tried a few times to put him down without it and he immediately starts thrashing around and then gets upset. I nurse at bedtime but he's usually awake when I put him down. He'll watch me walk out the door and is able to put himself to sleep no problem. I don't know why he can't do it MOTN. He doesn't like the bottle. He won't take one at night and I'm pretty sure he only enough during the day to hold him over until i get home. I haven't tried a sippy cup yet, but after reading yesterday's thread I was thinking about giving it a shot. Also, MH told me that DS2 usually wakes up after I leave and just fusses for a couple minutes and then puts himself back to sleep. So he's clearly capable, but its like he knows when I'm home or something.
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vino
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Post by vino on Jun 13, 2017 19:55:38 GMT -6
jubilantsquirrel I think you're onto something with the gas and/or upset stomach for bedtime because of frequent feeds in a relatively short amount of time. Can you feed his solids like 15 minutes earlier and then let him roll around and play to digest it, then before bed give some gripe water or Ovol, if it is upset due to indigestion that'll take care of it. Worth a shot. The good thing is that he is going down by himself, but maybe nursing to sleep is what he is used to. What about trying a new routine of nurse, bath, pyjamas and bed, so the association of nurse to sleep is broken. Just a couple thoughts, I really hope something works and this phase is over for you soon. J has random days that she's up a lot and it is tough the next day.
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Post by jubilantsquirrel on Jun 14, 2017 8:57:41 GMT -6
That's a good idea vino. I'll try that tonight! I think what I'm going to do going forward is try some sippy cups instead of bottles and see if he'll drink more during the day while I'm at work. Then I'm going to start giving him solids no later than 6pm and also try some gripe water before bedtime, then I'm going to nurse at the beginning of the bedtime routine instead of at the end. He was up every 1.5 hours on the dot last night, so something clearly needs to change.
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kleigh
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Post by kleigh on Jun 14, 2017 11:35:53 GMT -6
That's a good idea vino. I'll try that tonight! I think what I'm going to do going forward is try some sippy cups instead of bottles and see if he'll drink more during the day while I'm at work. Then I'm going to start giving him solids no later than 6pm and also try some gripe water before bedtime, then I'm going to nurse at the beginning of the bedtime routine instead of at the end. He was up every 1.5 hours on the dot last night, so something clearly needs to change. Good luck tonight!! I agree it's worth trying.
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Post by flamingo on Jun 14, 2017 12:53:24 GMT -6
I had this whole long thing typed out, jubilantsquirrel, and my laptop ate it. Anywho, this was posted today in a FB group I'm in and I thought there was some good info, particularly relating to some of the things others have mentioned here (when to feed before bed, indigestion, sleep training, etc) www.thealphaparent.com/2013/01/timeline-of-baby-and-toddler-sleep.html?m=1What stands out to me from the sleep solution sophiegrace shared was when the consultant said that so often we are trying to make any possible excuse for the poor sleep--hunger, gas, developmental leap, etc--and typically it's really not any of those things, and the baby just needs to learn how to go to sleep and put itself back to sleep MOTN. I recognized myself in that bc I jumped through hoops with DS trying to rule out all these different things; when we finally bit the bullet and did CIO, it worked like magic. Now with C, I have been much quicker to sleep train (started last night) because I saw some patterns forming and want to nip it in the bud.
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Post by sophiegrace on Jun 14, 2017 14:10:27 GMT -6
flamingo that is great! I'm so glad the "pre 6 o'clock phase" was mentioned. She just started doing that and while she eventually goes back down its killer. For a few days I was blaming everything I could, but last night I realized she just wanted to hang out. Not happening sister.
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Post by jubilantsquirrel on Jun 15, 2017 7:59:08 GMT -6
Thank you for that link flamingo! All of that was really helpful to read.
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Post by sophiegrace on Jun 15, 2017 8:07:50 GMT -6
Last night was our worst yet. Somehow each morning I find myself saying that. She slept for two hours and then woke up and didn't go back down until 3:45. After that she was crying and up every 30 minutes.
Every attempt at a morning nap has failed so far and I'm really fed the fuck up with the biting, pinching, hitting, and general roughness. We have workers in the house right now, but if we didn't she would have been in her crib an hour ago to figure something out on her own.
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waitwhat
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Post by waitwhat on Jun 15, 2017 8:22:18 GMT -6
Big hugs sophiegrace. I really hope your turn a corner soon. You both deserve it.
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vino
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Post by vino on Jun 15, 2017 8:44:11 GMT -6
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tgrimes
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Post by tgrimes on Jun 15, 2017 8:48:32 GMT -6
sophiegrace What does your sleep consultant say about this?
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Post by jubilantsquirrel on Jun 15, 2017 8:57:32 GMT -6
Better! We had 3 wake ups, but his first stretch was 4 hours! That's only happened twice and it was a good 3-4 months ago. So we did 8-12 and then up again at 2 and 4:30. I'm sure we'll have to do some sleep training, but I really think part of the issue was an upset stomach from having too much food so close to bedtime. Thank you for the suggestions!
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Post by sophiegrace on Jun 15, 2017 9:06:05 GMT -6
sophiegrace What does your sleep consultant say about this? I only had emails with her up until last Friday, but she just kept hammering in the importance of not letting her stay awake during the day longer than three hours until she's sleeping better at night and to KOKO with what I was doing. She thought M would eventually get the message that sleep is good. But we have a nap problem and she adamantly refuses the third short nap in the evening...shoot, her morning nap happens only about 50% of the time and it's ever longer than 30 minutes. But she wouldn't address the nap problem until night sleep was established....but night sleep can't be established without a good day of solid naps. The inlaws are making a last minute trip down here for the weekend (joy), so Sunday night we're starting her in her crib. Cosleeping was super convenient and I would have done it forever if she would have continued to go straight to sleep after her wake ups, but that's no longer the case. If we're starting from scratch I may as well get her used to her own space. H isn't happy about it, but I've reached my breaking point.
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vino
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Post by vino on Jun 15, 2017 9:38:18 GMT -6
sophiegrace Interesting that she says to get nighttime down before the naps, what i've read it's the complete opposite and rings true here, a good nap day usually results in a good night. I'm sure you've ready everything but this is the website I based J's sleep on www.preciouslittlesleep.com/how-to-cry-it-out-bedtime-edition/, you don't have to CIO but there are some good tips. Also, I'd be very comfortable dropping that 3rd nap, J hasn't had one for a good month or so now. Forcing it seems like nothing but frustration. J's afternoon nap ends about 3:30pm and she is up until 7-7:30pm the latest, so 4 hours. I really hate to confuse you but it seems like the sleep consultant may not be a good fit for Miss M. Also, I think the crib is a great idea, maybe she just needs her own space. In any case, good luck and vent all you need to, sleep is glorious when they 'get it' but the road to get there sometimes seems daunting.
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