jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Oct 13, 2023 8:55:29 GMT -6
Cutting off water, electricity, and fuel is a violation of humanitarian law against collective punishment. That’s facts not feelings. Why can’t another country provide aid? Israel has been doing it for years for people who hate them. Let someone who sides with Hamas protect them. Hamas knew what would happen and they did it anyway- stop blaming Israel. There are sympathizers who could step in and they haven’t and don’t. It’s not aid. They are the providers of these services in actual daily life for the Gaza Strip. That’s the system they have set up. Please stop conflating Hamas with Palestinians/Gazans. They are not the same. Other countries don’t side with Hamas (except maybe Iran) so that’s the problem. No one is going to help Hamas and the Gazans are held hostage by the Hamas.
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kbw
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Post by kbw on Oct 13, 2023 8:56:03 GMT -6
Cutting off water, electricity, and fuel is a violation of humanitarian law against collective punishment. That’s facts not feelings. Why can’t another country provide aid? Israel has been doing it for years for people who hate them. Let someone who sides with Hamas protect them. Hamas knew what would happen and they did it anyway- stop blaming Israel. There are sympathizers who could step in and they haven’t and don’t. I may be completely mis understanding but when did all of the people in Gaza turn into people hating Israel?
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origami
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Post by origami on Oct 13, 2023 8:56:18 GMT -6
I don’t understand this perception that people are not aware of what Hamas has done or that there is any support of it here. We are horrified and completely condemn it. Condemning it right in this thread even. And also talking about the morality of killing any Innocents even. The dehumanization is atrocious.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Oct 13, 2023 8:56:39 GMT -6
I don’t understand this perception that people are not aware of what Hamas has done or that there is any support of it here. We are horrified and completely condemn it. With all due respect, you are blaming the wrong party for what is happening. With all due respect you need to go and read what I have written. I am being respectful but I will not allow someone to put words in my mouth. I have been consistent on naming who is to blame.
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Post by ellewoods on Oct 13, 2023 8:57:01 GMT -6
And by the way, Hamas is coming for us Americans. Is we don’t stop them before you know it we will have another 9/11 and I bet planning is already in process. I saw a video today that Syrian men are coming to the US without women and children - why are they coming for refuge here without women and children? To do something… This is very inflammatory and IMO a racist and “fake news” statement. Regardless of location There are many reasons men come to the US for refuge before the women/children. I apologize if it was racist.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Oct 13, 2023 8:58:19 GMT -6
Why can’t another country provide aid? Israel has been doing it for years for people who hate them. Let someone who sides with Hamas protect them. Hamas knew what would happen and they did it anyway- stop blaming Israel. There are sympathizers who could step in and they haven’t and don’t. It’s not the innocent Palestinian civilians fault they’re prisoners of Hamas. Israel literally has control of the water / electricity / fuel. It’s not like Egypt can just say oh well we’ll just start funneling all that to you right now? We can set it up in jiffy? Like what in the world? Expecting Egypt, a country that is one event away from being completely destabilized, to be able to help the Gazans is magical thinking on a level I can’t understand.
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origami
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Post by origami on Oct 13, 2023 8:59:24 GMT -6
And by the way, Hamas is coming for us Americans. Is we don’t stop them before you know it we will have another 9/11 and I bet planning is already in process. I saw a video today that Syrian men are coming to the US without women and children - why are they coming for refuge here without women and children? To do something… This is very inflammatory and IMO a racist and “fake news” statement. Regardless of location There are many reasons men come to the US for refuge before the women/children. I'm appalled. I work in a district that has taken in countless refugees from all over the world. Sometimes men come first because they're who can get out and get started. Consequently, I cannot imagine how it must feel to be a Muslim, Arab-american, or refugee and read this thread. Jesus Christ.
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addymac
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Post by addymac on Oct 13, 2023 9:01:59 GMT -6
Hamas didn't warn anyone to get out. Israel has been trying to evacuate the civilians. They don't want to harm innocent lives, that's not propaganda. How should they try to bring the hostages home? If not for turning off the water and electricity? You want them to go in on foot to avoid bombing...what about the soldiers family and life? Is his life worth less? I know you are in a lot of pain but I only wish to address the facts, not feelings aspect. There are other ways to get hostages back than bombing an entire city / settlement full of innocent civilians and cutting off necessities needed to live. Thousands of innocent children will die because of this. They can go in on foot. You ask about the soldiers’ lives- that’s literally their job. It’s why we honor any member of military and thank them for their sacrifice and willingness to die for their country. Obviously ideally no one would die but that ship has sailed a long time ago and I’d prefer the people whose job and training has prepared them to fight and possibly die be the ones to go into battle to fight Hamas, who needs to pay for their atrocities. And that could possibly be done by ground invasion vs bombing which will kill far more innocent Palestinians than the terrorists.
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origami
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Post by origami on Oct 13, 2023 9:03:58 GMT -6
If we cannot condemn the death and destruction of innocents what are we even doing.
One does not negate the other. There's no such thing as collateral damage. These are human beings. Look what we did to Afghanistan after 9/11. That blood is on America's hands and even the most hawkish say it was a mistake twenty years on to just destroy innocent lives like that.
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overboard
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Post by overboard on Oct 13, 2023 9:06:24 GMT -6
This is very inflammatory and IMO a racist and “fake news” statement. Regardless of location There are many reasons men come to the US for refuge before the women/children. I apologize if it was racist. There’s no if about it.
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origami
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Post by origami on Oct 13, 2023 9:14:21 GMT -6
There are rules of engagement for a reason--to protect the lives of the innocent. No, terrorist groups don't follow rules of engagement but if they are met equally, more innocents die. Thus, it is understood that rules of engagement are followed. When the United fucking Nations is saying "this is impossible, these people will die" is it propaganda? The UN was created BECAUSE of WWII and the Holocaust. Their main focus was to shine a light on atrocity so we don't repeat the actions of WWII/The Holocaust. They are ringing the alarm bells right now. Does that mean nothing?
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Oct 13, 2023 9:18:25 GMT -6
This is very inflammatory and IMO a racist and “fake news” statement. Regardless of location There are many reasons men come to the US for refuge before the women/children. I'm appalled. I work in a district that has taken in countless refugees from all over the world. Sometimes men come first because they're who can get out and get started. Consequently, I cannot imagine how it must feel to be a Muslim, Arab-american, or refugee and read this thread. Jesus Christ. And sometimes they come here to send money home or to save money to bring their families here.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Oct 13, 2023 9:24:26 GMT -6
Again the vast majority of sentiment I have seen in here is - what Hamas is doing is pure, evil, terrorism with a total disregard for humanity -Israel has a right to defend itself -Israel's government has a duty under multiple treaties to take certain steps as they retaliate to not commit war crimes -Israel's government =/= all Israelis -Israel's government =/= all Jewish people -Hamas =/= all Palestinians -Hamas commits atrocities against the people of Gaza who are unable to leave -ALL people deserve to be treated with humanity and dignity
Maybe I've been misreading this entire thread. It's also an extremely sensitive subject which makes it VERY difficult to say anything for fear of causing unintentional harm and because it is so incredibly personal to so many
ETA: Looking back at this, the word "retaliate" could be inflammatory. I probably should have said "respond"
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Oct 13, 2023 9:25:31 GMT -6
^^^that is just me summarizing the main arguments I have seem from most in here, not me personally opening or claiming any authority or knowledge
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Oct 13, 2023 9:28:49 GMT -6
Isn't a ground invasion the current suspected plan anyway? My understanding is that the reason IDF is warning people to evacuate Gaza City is because they are planning a ground invasion to root out Hamas and rescue hostages. And all while attempting to mitigate civilian casualties. Am I losing it?
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Post by notexactly on Oct 13, 2023 9:36:26 GMT -6
Cutting off water, electricity, and fuel is a violation of humanitarian law against collective punishment. That’s facts not feelings. Why can’t another country provide aid? Israel has been doing it for years for people who hate them. Let someone who sides with Hamas protect them. Hamas knew what would happen and they did it anyway- stop blaming Israel. There are sympathizers who could step in and they haven’t and don’t. Egypt is trying to aid them right now.
However, per Middle East Monitor:
"Egyptian trucks carrying vital aid and fuel to the besieged and bombarded Gaza Strip have been forced to retreat after Israel warned Cairo that the trucks would be bombed if they entered the enclave, Sinai for Human Rights said on X.
The rights group said it obtained “exclusive footages confirming the blocking of Egyptian fuel trucks and humanitarian aids from access to the Rafah land crossing borders after Israel issued a warning to the Egyptian authorities that if it brought relief supplies into the Gaza Strip, the trucks would be bombed.”
So is that still excusable?
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Post by notexactly on Oct 13, 2023 9:38:03 GMT -6
To the comments on Syrian men seeking refuge... I have no words. Straight up something you'd hear from Fox News.
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origami
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Post by origami on Oct 13, 2023 9:40:20 GMT -6
It’s not the innocent Palestinian civilians fault they’re prisoners of Hamas. Israel literally has control of the water / electricity / fuel. It’s not like Egypt can just say oh well we’ll just start funneling all that to you right now? We can set it up in jiffy? Like what in the world? Expecting Egypt, a country that is one event away from being completely destabilized, to be able to help the Gazans is magical thinking on a level I can’t understand. I think there is so little literacy in America around MENA history, conflict, and issues. I think your statement about magical thinking is apt and not uncommon in war time, but the unwillingness to hear the people who do have this knowledge is where we seem to be hitting the wall.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Oct 13, 2023 9:41:43 GMT -6
Maybe one thing that needs to be fully said out loud that is leading to the disconnect is that, pointing out the oppressive occupation under which the people of Gaza live at the hands of a right wing Israeli government is NOT a justification for terrorism. Nothing can justify what Hamas are doing. I can only speak for myself, but objecting to actions taken against one people does not in any way suggest acceptance of or excuse for atrocities against another.
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robot
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Post by robot on Oct 13, 2023 9:46:41 GMT -6
And if the US continues its unwavering support of Israel with the latest orders I feel like we are just as accountable for those deaths as Israel is. Hamas needs to be accountable for those deaths. Yes. This is Hamas.
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notblanche
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Post by notblanche on Oct 13, 2023 9:50:35 GMT -6
Terrorism is bad. Cutting off all life-giving resources to innocent civilians is bad. The Israeli government doesn’t get an excuse to do war crimes because of terrorism.
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robot
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Post by robot on Oct 13, 2023 9:59:56 GMT -6
I probably won’t say this right. I don’t even have the words. I think some of what Jews are feeling right now is that every day countries bomb civilians. With no warning. Including our own country. There are not calls to wipe these countries off the map, calls that they shouldn’t exist. I’m not saying this opinion is here but it’s everywhere right now. That is antisemitism.
I don’t think bombing Gaza is ok or should happen. I’m praying for the people there and that Israel doesn’t do this. I do not want more civilians to die.
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notblanche
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Post by notblanche on Oct 13, 2023 10:14:28 GMT -6
This is one of the Palestinians I’ve been following on socials all week, she’s reporting that the internet will be wholly disconnected tonight. http://instagram.com/p/CyWEx5nrBPE
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Post by Sweetjane on Oct 13, 2023 10:26:50 GMT -6
This is one of the Palestinians I’ve been following on socials all week, she’s reporting that the internet will be wholly disconnected tonight. http://instagram.com/p/CyWEx5nrBPE Thank you for sharing the link.
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notblanche
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Post by notblanche on Oct 13, 2023 10:33:41 GMT -6
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Cher
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Post by Cher on Oct 13, 2023 10:39:12 GMT -6
Can I very gently say something? I have heard numerous times how this thread is antisemitic and while I think it’s not intentional, it’s hurtful.
Regardless of how large Israel’s army is, Jews are still a minority group. They make up less than .2% of the population. If those in our general age range have living grandparents, they likely survived the Holocaust, where 6M Jews were killed. 6 million.
When an attack happens and threats against them are up 400-ish% percent, their fears are totally valid. So when it’s mentioned that there’s no additional security at a synagogue and a bunch of people “like” it, how does it read to you?*
If a person of any minority group says something is an -ism, I don’t get to tell them it isn’t. So if a Jewish person says something is antisemitic, we hear them.
Yesterday, a friend said to me that she doesn’t know a single Jewish person that doesn’t know someone. This isn’t a debate for some. They don’t get to move on. Their lives were irrevocably changed less than a week ago and we need to hold space for their grief and fear.
I truly believe everyone here is sick over the situation. For Palestine and Israel. There’s enough empathy on this board for everyone. I think we’re all compassionate smart women and nobody is doing anything intentionally. But things are so raw and some posters who are personally affected may be operating on a different level than the rest of us. Jews are scared, they need to know people don’t hate them just because of who they are, that “never again” means “never again”. This board has always been a place that rallied around one another in our worst moments, I hope our long-term posters know that despite anyone’s beliefs on the conflict, we hear their fears, we weep with them and we’re here for them.
*not a slight against you, DC. I understand you were just conversing.
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overboard
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Post by overboard on Oct 13, 2023 10:53:08 GMT -6
Cher can you share exactly what is antisemitic in this thread? I hate to use this phrase but I’m genuinely asking. No one is disputing anyone’s fears or feelings (except when racism was involved). Numerous times people have said this is a sensitive subject and people have a right to feel how they feel. Is there an expectation to not be critical of Israel at all? How many times should we say we condemn Hamas? I’m just not clear from your post what you’re looking for.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Oct 13, 2023 10:53:18 GMT -6
Cher not to sound defensive but I liked DC’s post because of the last part - that they were still holding the event. Because I find beauty when community can come together even in the toughest of times. I know everything is going to be seen through a lens and I will be more aware of my words and interactions going forward.
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Post by ellewoods on Oct 13, 2023 10:54:38 GMT -6
This is one of the Palestinians I’ve been following on socials all week, she’s reporting that the internet will be wholly disconnected tonight. http://instagram.com/p/CyWEx5nrBPE I think it’s good to get different perspectives - she has shown up on my pages as well. She is saying things like Israel doesn’t want them to have schools - that’s not true. She’s saying it’s a lie that babies were be headed and women were raped - there are videos. So if you are following her, please follow others too. And maybe you do so if you do please disregard
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notblanche
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Post by notblanche on Oct 13, 2023 10:58:50 GMT -6
This is one of the Palestinians I’ve been following on socials all week, she’s reporting that the internet will be wholly disconnected tonight. http://instagram.com/p/CyWEx5nrBPE I think it’s good to get different perspectives - she has shown up on my pages as well. She is saying things like Israel doesn’t want them to have schools - that’s not true. She’s saying it’s a lie that babies were be headed and women were raped - there are videos. So if you are following her, please follow others too. And maybe you do so if you do please disregard To your first point, schools have been bombed. That’s not a lie. And to your other points, that information can’t be verified. Biden said he saw pics, then later retracted that statement.
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