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Post by Uncaripswife on Feb 29, 2020 16:02:08 GMT -6
I heard the "looking into closing the southern border" bit in the car, live, and shouted "WHY THO" into the void. I got you
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jaygee
Diamond
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Post by jaygee on Feb 29, 2020 16:02:48 GMT -6
Omg. I can’t breath.
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elle
Ruby
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Post by elle on Feb 29, 2020 17:07:31 GMT -6
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elle
Ruby
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Post by elle on Feb 29, 2020 18:40:42 GMT -6
And there he goes again. 🤢
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Post by oreobitsy on Feb 29, 2020 18:47:38 GMT -6
God, everything he does is calculated for ratings and buzz.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Feb 29, 2020 20:28:03 GMT -6
I’m having a discussion in a fb group about birthright citizenships (Spurred by my asking what is too liberal) The answer was doing away with it and citing birth tourism/houses and it’s now outdated. What do you think?
Personally I think it’s (her thought) rooted in racism but she said no.
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Post by greykitty on Feb 29, 2020 20:40:12 GMT -6
It's an interesting question now that modern travel has made these birth tourism deals more easily available to a greater number of people. When it comes right down to it, no, I'm all for birthright citizenship forever and ever. To me, it is a thing that makes the United States special, if you would.
That said, I'm on the fence about whether some restrictions should come into play regarding the birth tourism industry. I really don't like birth tourism on a gut level, truth to tell. And I don't care which countries it's advertised in, still doesn't seem right, although I can see why a lot of Chinese citizens eagerly pay thousands to give birth in the US.
Another issue I struggle with - I'm really not sure how I feel about being able to hold dual citizenship. Some days I feel like pick a country and stick with it. Citizenship should not be a flag of convenience. But I waver, and I've never had to personally deal with choosing, either.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Feb 29, 2020 20:51:22 GMT -6
greykitty do think getting rid of it could be a slippery slope? Like could stop it and trigger reviews of ancestry? Sort of like what’s currently happening under this administration? I’m not all rah rah come here and have your baby but at the same time Swedes and Norwegian are not rushing here to give birth. Because those are countries with a very good quality of life. I can’t fault anyone for wanting a better situation for their children I guess
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Post by blurnette989 on Feb 29, 2020 21:40:01 GMT -6
greykitty I agree birthright citizenship should stay always. It's part of what makes others in the world see the US as a beacon of Hope and to me that strengthens our democracy and the idea of democracy abroad. Also it generally encourages people looking for better for their family, which I understand. Dual citizenship is complicated. I was born a dual citizen. I didn't have a choice in the matter and I think I should always be able to maintain both. I love both countries. Making people choose would just reinforce tribalism and nationalism, which i think is counterproductive to taking on many issues that need to be dealt with at a global scale. Also as an odd side note the US does not make it easy or cheap to give up citizenship.
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starbuck
Emerald
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Post by starbuck on Mar 1, 2020 7:53:51 GMT -6
My dad is pursuing his third citizenship right now. He has US, Brazil (where he was born), and after losing my grandfather in Dec he is seeking his Portuguese citizenship (where my grandfather was born and lived until 18).
As soon as his Portuguese citizenship application is sorted he's going to help me get my Brazilian citizenship processed. Maybe I will go for the hat trick like him. IDK.
I am very pro citizen of the world. The US is my home, but I have so many familial and cultural connections to these places. To me, citizenship is one way to deepen and explore those connections.
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Post by blurnette989 on Mar 1, 2020 8:01:26 GMT -6
My dad is pursing his third citizenship right now. He has US, Brazil (where he was born), and after losing my grandfather in Dec he is seeking his Portuguese citizenship (where my grandfather was born and lived until 18). As soon as his Portuguese citizenship application is sorted he's going to help me get my Brazilian citizenship processed. Maybe I will go for the hat trick like him. IDK. I am very pro citizen of the world. The US is my home, but I have so many familial and cultural connections to these places. To me, citizenship is one way to deepen and explore those connections. Dooooo it! Then we can have a Meetup in Portugal!
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Post by greykitty on Mar 1, 2020 8:02:58 GMT -6
greykitty do think getting rid of it could be a slippery slope? Like could stop it and trigger reviews of ancestry? Sort of like what’s currently happening under this administration? I’m not all rah rah come here and have your baby but at the same time Swedes and Norwegian are not rushing here to give birth. Because those are countries with a very good quality of life. I can’t fault anyone for wanting a better situation for their children I guess Oh, definitely slippery slope area, and why I think in the end I come down on birthright citizenship is historically American and should remain so. I admit - I was both totally surprised when I first learned years ago that this is not the general way people can become citizens in the country of their birth, and somehow deeply proud that the US holds to birthright citizenship - no matter what that perhaps historically dubious ways we got there. That said, and I haven't done in-depth research on birth tourism, I'm still deeply uneasy at the idea that people (from ANY country) fly in, pay >$40,000 in cases that I have read about, having the child, and then parent and child return to original country, not to return for many many years - if ever. It's not remotely similar to, oh, DACA in my view. It's not people desperate to actually live here, for themselves or their children. Or so that's the impression I've gained. I really had no idea such an industry existed, and it does trouble me. But not enough to toss birthright citizenship out the window. Yes, I guess there's not a difference in kind, per se, between wanting to set up your child to easily buy real estate in the US 25 years down the road, and knowing that you might not be able to get citizenship, but here's a road for your child. I still remain deeply uneasy at a gut level about the whole idea of the newly born citizen not actually being raised with a sense of the rights and responsibilities of US citizenship (yeah, I know they still have to pay taxes - there's more to being a citizen than that, I think). Now, maybe I'm wrong - maybe these children born from the tourist industry are being raised in their parents' countries with daily stories of US history, both light and dark, and are being primed to 'feel' like US citizens, not just have a valid US passport. But, I truly do see why people aren't comfortable, and I think it's too easy to say it's only racism. Again, I've not done in depth research, so would love to see data on all sides.
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Post by greykitty on Mar 1, 2020 8:19:17 GMT -6
greykitty I agree birthright citizenship should stay always. It's part of what makes others in the world see the US as a beacon of Hope and to me that strengthens our democracy and the idea of democracy abroad. Also it generally encourages people looking for better for their family, which I understand. Dual citizenship is complicated. I was born a dual citizen. I didn't have a choice in the matter and I think I should always be able to maintain both. I love both countries. Making people choose would just reinforce tribalism and nationalism, which i think is counterproductive to taking on many issues that need to be dealt with at a global scale. Also as an odd side note the US does not make it easy or cheap to give up citizenship. You know, it's a deeply emotional decision, as well as let's think this logically through for all the economic and other benefits, to me. I'm second generation US on one side, and third on the others. Maybe this means I'm still close enough to be deeply appreciative of those ancestors who pulled up all stakes and left for the US, hoping for better lives here. I'm certainly appreciative of my immediate ancestors who both both fought for this country in several wars, and saw the 'old countries' as exactly that - the old home, not the new. I myself just emotionally feel this is the country I fight with, and for. I'm interested in the 'old countries' from afar - but that's not my home anymore. And that's me. Well, to be fair, also for both my own mother and father (first and second generation). They were happy to be US citizens, and appreciated the old countries' cultures in many ways, but there were no big ties or desires to retain other citizenship. I did a tiny bit of research once to see what access I might have to any of the original countries - but ended up feeling I just didn't have the desire, even if it turned out to be easy (and it wasn't horribly hard in one case, but I just didn't have the want and didn't think it'd be fair to me or to the old land). For me, dual citizenship holds no interest, mostly because I don't know if I could be equally 'loyal', if you would, to more than one country in case of major conflict; maybe too pragmatic? Maybe others could make any such decisions more easily than I. But that's just not my own emotional state. I admit I do look a bit askance at people who seem to hold various citizenships just to trade off economic advantages. I'm probably not fair to them, but always wonder what they'd end up doing, if push really came to shove.
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Mar 1, 2020 10:06:55 GMT -6
My dad is pursing his third citizenship right now. He has US, Brazil (where he was born), and after losing my grandfather in Dec he is seeking his Portuguese citizenship (where my grandfather was born and lived until 18). As soon as his Portuguese citizenship application is sorted he's going to help me get my Brazilian citizenship processed. Maybe I will go for the hat trick like him. IDK. I am very pro citizen of the world. The US is my home, but I have so many familial and cultural connections to these places. To me, citizenship is one way to deepen and explore those connections. Dooooo it! Then we can have a Meetup in Portugal! I went in middle school but I definitely want to return as an adult.
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dc2london
Admin
Press Secretary
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Post by dc2london on Mar 1, 2020 10:49:33 GMT -6
WOW.
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Post by greykitty on Mar 1, 2020 11:42:45 GMT -6
dc2london , the decrease in pollution reminded me of Steve Rogers' comment in Endgame to Natasha Romanoff about seeing whales in the Hudson and the air feeling cleaner....I mean, ok, Captain America, always great to look for an upside even in the face of disaster, but Natasha wasn't having it in this case. One of my dreams has been that somehow heavy industry really ends up combined with extraordinary advances in protecting the planet, though.
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Post by blurnette989 on Mar 1, 2020 11:46:27 GMT -6
greykitty I agree birthright citizenship should stay always. It's part of what makes others in the world see the US as a beacon of Hope and to me that strengthens our democracy and the idea of democracy abroad. Also it generally encourages people looking for better for their family, which I understand. Dual citizenship is complicated. I was born a dual citizen. I didn't have a choice in the matter and I think I should always be able to maintain both. I love both countries. Making people choose would just reinforce tribalism and nationalism, which i think is counterproductive to taking on many issues that need to be dealt with at a global scale. Also as an odd side note the US does not make it easy or cheap to give up citizenship. You know, it's a deeply emotional decision, as well as let's think this logically through for all the economic and other benefits, to me. I'm second generation US on one side, and third on the others. Maybe this means I'm still close enough to be deeply appreciative of those ancestors who pulled up all stakes and left for the US, hoping for better lives here. I'm certainly appreciative of my immediate ancestors who both both fought for this country in several wars, and saw the 'old countries' as exactly that - the old home, not the new. I myself just emotionally feel this is the country I fight with, and for. I'm interested in the 'old countries' from afar - but that's not my home anymore. And that's me. Well, to be fair, also for both my own mother and father (first and second generation). They were happy to be US citizens, and appreciated the old countries' cultures in many ways, but there were no big ties or desires to retain other citizenship. I did a tiny bit of research once to see what access I might have to any of the original countries - but ended up feeling I just didn't have the desire, even if it turned out to be easy (and it wasn't horribly hard in one case, but I just didn't have the want and didn't think it'd be fair to me or to the old land). For me, dual citizenship holds no interest, mostly because I don't know if I could be equally 'loyal', if you would, to more than one country in case of major conflict; maybe too pragmatic? Maybe others could make any such decisions more easily than I. But that's just not my own emotional state. I admit I do look a bit askance at people who seem to hold various citizenships just to trade off economic advantages. I'm probably not fair to them, but always wonder what they'd end up doing, if push really came to shove. Ok great. Don't get dual citizenship. Easy for you. But again many of us did not make the choice. We just were born with it and it actually isn't easy to give up citizenship in many places. It would cost me well over $10k for my family to give up our citizenship. I was born in Portugal. Half my family is here, the other half is in the US. If I gave up my US citizenship I could have difficulty with re-entry in the US if I later want to visit family. It's not as easy as just choosing. And it isn't all about economic advantages. The US basically treats you like you must've hiding money from them or want to overthrow the government because you don't want to be taxed overseas. It's so much more complicated than just feeling more "loyal" to one place or another. The way you talk about loyalty makes it seem like you think those of us with dual citizenship are somehow less of citizens than someone like you who chooses to *only* be American. That may not be what you mean, but it come across like that.
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Post by blurnette989 on Mar 1, 2020 11:47:36 GMT -6
Dooooo it! Then we can have a Meetup in Portugal! I went in middle school but I definitely want to return as an adult. It's such a little treasure of a country. What area did you visit?
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jaygee
Diamond
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Post by jaygee on Mar 1, 2020 12:11:02 GMT -6
Whoa. This is a big deal.
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Post by greykitty on Mar 1, 2020 12:20:24 GMT -6
blurnette989, I did not mean to say everyone with dual citizenship is not deeply attached to however many countries they hold citizenship in, especially those who hold birthright citizenship in more than one. But for me, emotionally, the concept of fairly serving two masters (yeah, so biblical) holds enormous emotional sway. I was trying to be clear that emotional response is often as strong as a logical thought process. But, I did not know it would cost $10,000 to renounce citizenship in Portugal or in the US. I can see any country would want a citizen to think long and hard about what is a very final, possibly life changing, decision, but I didn't realize the financial bar is also high. I remember reading about John Forbes Nash and his several attempts to renounce his citizenship, and understood the US makes the process somewhat difficult on purpose; in his case, of course, I think most would agree his attempts were not reasoned at that moment. But, the discussion began with those obtaining birthright citizenship through birth tourism, which adds another shade, I thought, to the conversation. Is it fair to ask what the intent is there?
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starbuck
Emerald
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Post by starbuck on Mar 1, 2020 12:44:58 GMT -6
I went in middle school but I definitely want to return as an adult. It's such a little treasure of a country. What area did you visit? Lisbon, mostly. And Aveiro. I have a great uncle who lives in the area. My grandpa was born in Parada so I'd like to swing thru (I understand it was and remains one horse town but walking the streets would be awesome). And my great-grandparents on my grandmother's side, their house is now a pousada a little ways outside Oporto so that's on my list.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Mar 1, 2020 13:58:54 GMT -6
This is horrible.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Mar 1, 2020 14:21:46 GMT -6
Bloomberg was speaking at a church in Selma on Bloody Sunday and people turned their backs in silent protest.
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emma
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Post by emma on Mar 1, 2020 14:45:49 GMT -6
greykitty I’m a dual citizen through choice. I’m born British but emigrated 10 years ago and became a Canadian citizen 4 years ago. I’m deeply attached to my British roots and having the option to move back one day is very important with aging parents, however it was also very important for me to become a citizen of my new country. I love Canada and am happy to now be able to be actively involved in local and national politics etc... Maybe you’ll never get it but as an immigrant being welcomed into my new country while being able to maintain my roots is important.
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Post by greykitty on Mar 1, 2020 14:54:58 GMT -6
greykitty I’m a dual citizen through choice. I’m born British but emigrated 10 years ago and became a Canadian citizen 4 years ago. I’m deeply attached to my British roots and having the option to move back one day is very important with aging parents, however it was also very important for me to become a citizen of my new country. I love Canada and am happy to now be able to be actively involved in local and national politics etc... Maybe you’ll never get it but as an immigrant being welcomed into my new country while being able to maintain my roots is important. I probably am too far removed from recent immigrant status to share the same emotions (second and third generation, maternal and paternal ancestry), and I feel pretty darn sure that while I value my citizenship, I don't bring the same fervor to it as someone newly sworn into citizenship as an adult, with all the work and innate desire that entails. As I've repeatedly said, for me there's a struggle between gut emotional reactions and just logical thought. And the whole thing came up due to the discussion of the birth tourism industry - which I still think is a quite different path to gaining citizenship. And, yes, in my case while all the people who immigrated maintained some ties with the 'old country', but maybe because transportation was much more expensive and difficult, it was more of a feeling that once you arrived in the new world, this became your one and pretty much only home. There was no easy and cheap way back and forth. And then the years went on.....
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byjove
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Post by byjove on Mar 1, 2020 16:16:43 GMT -6
Maybe the best unintended consequence!
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Post by oreobitsy on Mar 1, 2020 19:28:35 GMT -6
Oh man, I just watched SNL today. John Mulaney was the host with David Byrne as musical guest. I highly recommend a watch for all of you who just need a break. Plan on me spamming the thread later tonight once the kids are down.
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elle
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Post by elle on Mar 1, 2020 20:17:29 GMT -6
Oh man, I just watched SNL today. John Mulaney was the host with David Byrne as musical guest. I highly recommend a watch for all of you who just need a break. Plan on me spamming the thread later tonight once the kids are down. I love all the musical inspired sketches that happen when Mulaney hosts.
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RajahMD
Amethyst
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Post by RajahMD on Mar 1, 2020 20:58:44 GMT -6
Whoa. This is a big deal. Hahahahahahahahahaahahahah *takes deep breath* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH FUCK CUCCINELLI.
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Post by oreobitsy on Mar 1, 2020 21:01:54 GMT -6
Oh man, I just watched SNL today. John Mulaney was the host with David Byrne as musical guest. I highly recommend a watch for all of you who just need a break. Plan on me spamming the thread later tonight once the kids are down. I love all the musical inspired sketches that happen when Mulaney hosts. Yes, exactly!
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