piratecat
Diamond
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Post by piratecat on Mar 21, 2019 8:36:13 GMT -6
How much of this is due to the fact that some schools require far less "writing" (whether it's physical writing or on a computer)? For us, part of the problem is they aren’t writing much outside of an English classroom. Also, recently we wrote a research paper and the citations were horrendous. They argued that no one had ever told them that you have to cite information if it’s paraphrased. I know that’s not true. My kid, in the fourth grade and same county system, is being taught to cite sources. I don’t know. It’s really bad and I work at a great school. The discrepancy between honors and AP and a general class is shocking. ETA: we actually went through an example paper and practiced citing and then very few did it. They don’t see it as important. But like, that's not really a problem parents can solve at home, right? I mean, sure, maybe, but it seems like it would involve a lot more than just proofreading and occasional help with homework. I'm confused about how to even identify the problem though since you say it's a great school and your daughter is learning these things in elementary school.
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auburn
Sapphire
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Post by auburn on Mar 21, 2019 8:47:18 GMT -6
For us, part of the problem is they aren’t writing much outside of an English classroom. Also, recently we wrote a research paper and the citations were horrendous. They argued that no one had ever told them that you have to cite information if it’s paraphrased. I know that’s not true. My kid, in the fourth grade and same county system, is being taught to cite sources. I don’t know. It’s really bad and I work at a great school. The discrepancy between honors and AP and a general class is shocking. ETA: we actually went through an example paper and practiced citing and then very few did it. They don’t see it as important. But like, that's not really a problem parents can solve at home, right? I mean, sure, maybe, but it seems like it would involve a lot more than just proofreading and occasional help with homework. I'm confused about how to even identify the problem though since you say it's a great school and your daughter is learning these things in elementary school. I’m just responding to the idea that by high school they don’t need help. I teach college part time too. They definitely still need help at both levels. My students told me that they waited until the last minute, despite having class time to work on it, and just turned in what they could slap together. I wonder if they are more serious about it in the lower grades now because they see the problems at the high school level.
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piratecat
Diamond
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Post by piratecat on Mar 21, 2019 8:47:40 GMT -6
Maybe when I say parents helping with homework is largely unnecessary (as in, of course if my kid is having a particularly hard time with a subject or even school in general, I am going to help him) what I actually mean is it SHOULD be largely unnecessary.
My problem with saying well they actually do need a lot of help at home goes back to... so what if they don't have access to that support at home? What about those of us that grew up without it? Could I have done better in high school if my parents helped? Maybe. Could I have gotten into a better college? Would I be more successful in life now? I feel like I keep talking in circles but this is what is unfair about the notion that our school system can't provide good enough education for everyone that even at the high school level they need parental involvement to succeed? Maybe that is our reality and I don't want to buy into it.
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piratecat
Diamond
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Post by piratecat on Mar 21, 2019 8:51:12 GMT -6
But like, that's not really a problem parents can solve at home, right? I mean, sure, maybe, but it seems like it would involve a lot more than just proofreading and occasional help with homework. I'm confused about how to even identify the problem though since you say it's a great school and your daughter is learning these things in elementary school. I’m just responding to the idea that by high school they don’t need help. I teach college part time too. They definitely still need help at both levels. My students told me that they waited until the last minute, despite having class time to work on it, and just turned in what they could slap together. I wonder if they are more serious about it in the lower grades now because they see the problems at the high school level. I also wonder if the problem appears more prevalent once you've picked off the high performing students into honors and AP classes, and the general classes are falling further behind.
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Post by SweetPotato on Mar 21, 2019 8:58:47 GMT -6
Maybe when I say parents helping with homework is largely unnecessary (as in, of course if my kid is having a particularly hard time with a subject or even school in general, I am going to help him) what I actually mean is it SHOULD be largely unnecessary. My problem with saying well they actually do need a lot of help at home goes back to... so what if they don't have access to that support at home? What about those of us that grew up without it? Could I have done better in high school if my parents helped? Maybe. Could I have gotten into a better college? Would I be more successful in life now? I feel like I keep talking in circles but this is what is unfair about the notion that our school system can't provide good enough education for everyone that even at the high school level they need parental involvement to succeed? Maybe that is our reality and I don't want to buy into it. Unfortunately there is no end to the “what ifs” and “what abouts” There are kids who don’t have parents, are homeless, who are being abused, who are sleeping during class because they worked late to pay the bills, and on and on.
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Post by SayitaintSnow on Mar 21, 2019 9:47:23 GMT -6
This is not limited to CC, though it seems to be more common there. But I have seen abysmal writing skills at decently ranked four year colleges as well. It pretty much always has less to do with the students' innate abilities and much more to do with the amount of support they received (at home and at school). If the don't have someone to help enculturate them into higher ed, they start off at an immediate disadvantage. How much of this is due to the fact that some schools require far less "writing" (whether it's physical writing or on a computer)? Probably a lot. Also I think teachers are just in general overworked and class sizes are too large. Cutting corners by assigning fewer written assignments, and taking less time to grade them carefully and give detailed feedback, is much more the norm than in the past. And to be clear, this is out of necessity, not because teachers aren't willing to work hard. There are just only so many hours in the day. And the problem gets compounded so by the time someone is in HS or college, it's like, jeez, can I really afford to spend an hour going through each paper with my red pen, correcting things that students should have learned five or more years ago, when my job is supposed to be assessing them based on some other material entirely?
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Post by GhoatMonket on Mar 21, 2019 9:53:27 GMT -6
I’m just responding to the idea that by high school they don’t need help. I teach college part time too. They definitely still need help at both levels. My students told me that they waited until the last minute, despite having class time to work on it, and just turned in what they could slap together. I wonder if they are more serious about it in the lower grades now because they see the problems at the high school level. I also wonder if the problem appears more prevalent once you've picked off the high performing students into honors and AP classes, and the general classes are falling further behind. So much like your solution to everyone not having help at home is to tie the hands of those that do, here you want to penalize those that are doing well by not allowing them to take classes at the level they are at? You keep trying to push everyone to the lowest common denominator instead of trying improve those that don't have the same options. You are trying to solve the wrong problem. Stop trying to take resources away from those that have them and try to find ways to make them available to those that do. And no, there is no easy way to do that. And those with the resources need to help find ways to make them more available.
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piratecat
Diamond
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Post by piratecat on Mar 21, 2019 10:04:22 GMT -6
I also wonder if the problem appears more prevalent once you've picked off the high performing students into honors and AP classes, and the general classes are falling further behind. So much like your solution to everyone not having help at home is to tie the hands of those that do, here you want to penalize those that are doing well by not allowing them to take classes at the level they are at? You keep trying to push everyone to the lowest common denominator instead of trying improve those that don't have the same options. You are trying to solve the wrong problem. Stop trying to take resources away from those that have them and try to find ways to make them available to those that do. And no, there is no easy way to do that. And those with the resources need to help find ways to make them more available. Uh, when did I say any of that? I am just speculating on what might be causing this problem we were discussing, so that we can then speculate on possible solutions on how to help the general class kids along too. FFS.
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Post by SayitaintSnow on Mar 21, 2019 10:06:31 GMT -6
I also wonder if the problem appears more prevalent once you've picked off the high performing students into honors and AP classes, and the general classes are falling further behind. So much like your solution to everyone not having help at home is to tie the hands of those that do, here you want to penalize those that are doing well by not allowing them to take classes at the level they are at? You keep trying to push everyone to the lowest common denominator instead of trying improve those that don't have the same options. You are trying to solve the wrong problem. Stop trying to take resources away from those that have them and try to find ways to make them available to those that do. And no, there is no easy way to do that. And those with the resources need to help find ways to make them more available. There is evidence that mixed-ability classes with students with multiple proficiencies can be a really effective learning context for all involved (though execution is critical). So I don't think this model necessarily involves penalizing those that are doing well. Instead what we often seem to see is a lot of resources being thrown at those who demonstrate significant success early on, at the cost of those that need more help, which leads to those students falling further and further behind.
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piratecat
Diamond
Posts: 36,083 Likes: 144,038
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Post by piratecat on Mar 21, 2019 10:07:00 GMT -6
I don't know how many times I have to say parents should help their kids at home as they see fit. I am astounded that my own personal opinion on an internet forum could carry so much weight as to magically legislate all parent involvement or eliminate AP classes.
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rvasc
Emerald
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Post by rvasc on Mar 21, 2019 10:34:28 GMT -6
I don't know how many times I have to say parents should help their kids at home as they see fit. I am astounded that my own personal opinion on an internet forum could carry so much weight as to magically legislate all parent involvement or eliminate AP classes. Welcome to HIH! Nice to meet you.
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piratecat
Diamond
Posts: 36,083 Likes: 144,038
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Post by piratecat on Mar 21, 2019 10:36:03 GMT -6
I don't know how many times I have to say parents should help their kids at home as they see fit. I am astounded that my own personal opinion on an internet forum could carry so much weight as to magically legislate all parent involvement or eliminate AP classes. Welcome to HIH! Nice to meet you. Thank you! I feel so powerful but I promise to use my typed words for good. Well, after I take away everyone's birthdays.
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Post by SweetPotato on Mar 21, 2019 10:46:24 GMT -6
Welcome to HIH! Nice to meet you. Thank you! I feel so powerful but I promise to use my typed words for good. Well, after I take away everyone's birthdays. Can you start with me?
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piratecat
Diamond
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Post by piratecat on Mar 21, 2019 11:01:00 GMT -6
Thank you! I feel so powerful but I promise to use my typed words for good. Well, after I take away everyone's birthdays. Can you start with me? But birthdays are awesome!
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soup
Platinum
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Post by soup on Mar 21, 2019 11:03:04 GMT -6
This thread is still going!
I had a Lori Laughlin/Felicity Huffman moment yesterday while registering my daughter for kindergarten yesterday (specifically for a lottery into a dual language immersion class).
When asked whether my kid was fluent in Mandarin, I said, "Um. Yes!"
She is not.
#cheater
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piratecat
Diamond
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Post by piratecat on Mar 21, 2019 11:22:27 GMT -6
I went to a specialized high school, where a staggeringly small number of black and latinx students are admitted. These schools offer great opportunities for the high performers that can benefit from the more challenging environment but the racial divide is for sure problematic. It is a conflicting topic for me personally but I have to try and step back from how the system has benefited me and others like me and think about if and how the system is failing others and our society as a whole.
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piratecat
Diamond
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Post by piratecat on Mar 21, 2019 11:22:54 GMT -6
This thread is still going! I had a Lori Laughlin/Felicity Huffman moment yesterday while registering my daughter for kindergarten yesterday (specifically for a lottery into a dual language immersion class). When asked whether my kid was fluent in Mandarin, I said, "Um. Yes!" She is not. #cheater Well I have reported you to the authorities.
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soup
Platinum
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Post by soup on Mar 21, 2019 11:27:52 GMT -6
To be fair, she will be outed as non-fluent when she takes the required proficiency test. ![(rofl)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/rofl.png) (But you can't even take said test unless you claim your child is fluent.)
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Post by hardlyluck on Mar 21, 2019 11:28:41 GMT -6
This thread is still going! I had a Lori Laughlin/Felicity Huffman moment yesterday while registering my daughter for kindergarten yesterday (specifically for a lottery into a dual language immersion class). When asked whether my kid was fluent in Mandarin, I said, "Um. Yes!" She is not. #cheater My only hesitation with this is, it setting her up for unrealistic expectations from the program teachers? Are they going to expect her to speak Mandarin from day one? You know your kid and the program so I’m sure it’s fine, it was just the first thing I thought of.
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Post by hardlyluck on Mar 21, 2019 11:30:01 GMT -6
To be fair, she will be outed as non-fluent when she takes the required proficiency test. ![(rofl)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/rofl.png) (But you can't even take said test unless you claim your child is fluent.) So wait. You can’t get into this language immersion program unless you are already fluent (or stating you are anyway)?
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soup
Platinum
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Post by soup on Mar 21, 2019 11:31:12 GMT -6
This thread is still going! I had a Lori Laughlin/Felicity Huffman moment yesterday while registering my daughter for kindergarten yesterday (specifically for a lottery into a dual language immersion class). When asked whether my kid was fluent in Mandarin, I said, "Um. Yes!" She is not. #cheater My only hesitation with this is, it setting her up for unrealistic expectations from the program teachers? Are they going to expect her to speak Mandarin from day one? You know your kid and the program so I’m sure it’s fine, it was just the first thing I thought of. No, this is only a minor attempt at gaming the system. Here, half the class is "fluent," and half the class is English-speaking-only. There are usually not enough children who are "fluent," so if you qualify as "fluent," then you automatically get into the program. In contrast, it is a highly competitive lottery for the English-speaking-only slots. If she can get in as "fluent" kid, then we won't need to enter the lottery. But we need to claim proficiency in order to be considered.
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auburn
Sapphire
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Post by auburn on Mar 21, 2019 11:31:29 GMT -6
So much like your solution to everyone not having help at home is to tie the hands of those that do, here you want to penalize those that are doing well by not allowing them to take classes at the level they are at? You keep trying to push everyone to the lowest common denominator instead of trying improve those that don't have the same options. You are trying to solve the wrong problem. Stop trying to take resources away from those that have them and try to find ways to make them available to those that do. And no, there is no easy way to do that. And those with the resources need to help find ways to make them more available. There is evidence that mixed-ability classes with students with multiple proficiencies can be a really effective learning context for all involved (though execution is critical). So I don't think this model necessarily involves penalizing those that are doing well. Instead what we often seem to see is a lot of resources being thrown at those who demonstrate significant success early on, at the cost of those that need more help, which leads to those students falling further and further behind. When we eliminated Advanced classes and went to only Honors and General classes, the theory was that the advanced kids would take general and the benefits you mentioned would materialize. It didn’t happen. Instead, they took AP and Honors, even though they struggle in those classes because there is a stigma associated with being in a general class. I taught AP for years and now teach general for the first time in years. I was shocked at the discrepancy. There is a lot of remediation and reteaching that happens.
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Post by hardlyluck on Mar 21, 2019 11:32:12 GMT -6
My only hesitation with this is, it setting her up for unrealistic expectations from the program teachers? Are they going to expect her to speak Mandarin from day one? You know your kid and the program so I’m sure it’s fine, it was just the first thing I thought of. No, this is only a minor attempt at gaming the system. Here, half the class is "fluent," and half the class is English-speaking-only. There are usually not enough children who are "fluent," so if you qualify as "fluent," then you automatically get into the program. In contrast, it is a highly competitive lottery for the English-speaking-only slots. If she can get in as "fluent" kid, then we won't need to enter the lottery. But we need to claim proficiency in order to be considered. Ah okay, I think I get it now.
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piratecat
Diamond
Posts: 36,083 Likes: 144,038
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Post by piratecat on Mar 21, 2019 11:36:36 GMT -6
To be fair, she will be outed as non-fluent when she takes the required proficiency test. ![(rofl)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/rofl.png) (But you can't even take said test unless you claim your child is fluent.) How much time does she have? Find a toilet tutor that is fluent in Mandarin - two birds with one giant boulder of privilege!
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Post by GhoatMonket on Mar 21, 2019 11:37:13 GMT -6
I went to a specialized high school, where staggeringly small number of black and latinx students are admitted. These schools offer great opportunities for the high performers that can benefit from the more challenging environment but the racial divide is for sure problematic. It is a conflicting topic for me personally but I have to try and step back from how the system has benefited me and others like me and think about if and how the system is failing others and our society as a whole. I don't think there is a question that the system is failing a good number of kids and that as a whole our society would be better if improvements were made so everyone has access to what they need, whether it comes from home or is provided by the school. There's too much focus on equality and not on equity.
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soup
Platinum
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Post by soup on Mar 21, 2019 11:54:37 GMT -6
To be fair, she will be outed as non-fluent when she takes the required proficiency test. ![(rofl)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/rofl.png) (But you can't even take said test unless you claim your child is fluent.) How much time does she have? Find a toilet tutor that is fluent in Mandarin - two birds with one giant boulder of privilege! It doesn't get more privileged than a Mandarin-speaking in-home nanny. And, yet, even that is not getting her ahead! FLOSEM language test takes place the week of April 8. Let's just hope she doesn't pee in her pants that day. #notharvardmaterial
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McBenny
Unicorn
#sickomode
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Post by McBenny on Mar 21, 2019 13:50:06 GMT -6
omg this thread is still going?
FUCK THE PARENTS AND THE KIDS!! FUCK THEM ALL!!!
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inthekitty
Emerald
My eyes are up here.
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Post by inthekitty on Mar 21, 2019 13:58:51 GMT -6
omg this thread is still going? FUCK THE PARENTS AND THE KIDS!! FUCK THEM ALL!!! I think this is my favorite post in this thread.
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ripper
Opal
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Post by ripper on Apr 10, 2019 7:20:41 GMT -6
Lori decided not to take a plea deal, which would have seen her take a minimum of 2 years. Now, she has been indicted with additional charges, specifically money laundering, which if she accepts a plea, it will be a minimum of approx 4-6 years.
Prosecutors are out for some blood. This is getting even juicier.
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