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Post by GhoatMonket on Mar 20, 2019 10:09:32 GMT -6
Parents proofreading or otherwise helping with school work. I never would have graduated High School if my Mom didn't help me with math. Those damn PSA tests almost fucked me. I scored "average" but you had to be proficient. I was terrible at it, still am. What grade do we need to send you back to so you can pass Billy Madison style?
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piratecat
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Post by piratecat on Mar 20, 2019 10:11:41 GMT -6
Parents proofreading or otherwise helping with school work. I never would have graduated High School if my Mom didn't help me with math. Those damn PSA tests almost fucked me. I scored "average" but you had to be proficient. I was terrible at it, still am. And I am glad you had that support from your mom and that you were able to graduate, truly.
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Post by ladybrienne on Mar 20, 2019 10:13:02 GMT -6
I never would have graduated High School if my Mom didn't help me with math. Those damn PSA tests almost fucked me. I scored "average" but you had to be proficient. I was terrible at it, still am. What grade do we need to send you back to so you can pass Billy Madison style? Lol 12th grade. I ended up having to re-take the math portion, and take a class. But even then I still struggled. It came down to the wire, shit was stressful.
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Post by GhoatMonket on Mar 20, 2019 10:13:52 GMT -6
Parents proofreading or otherwise helping with school work. I never would have graduated High School if my Mom didn't help me with math. Those damn PSA tests almost fucked me. I scored "average" but you had to be proficient. I was terrible at it, still am. And I hear you on this. I have friends that passed because I helped them extensively on their homework and their homework grades were the only thing that saved them. I got them through enough that they could score well enough to pass. Some of it came down to "this goes here because I said so" because they weren't following the concepts at all.
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Post by ladybrienne on Mar 20, 2019 10:14:25 GMT -6
I am def not going to be much help with my kids on the math homework if they need it. My H has an accounting degree so I will leave that to him. My kids would fail if they needed my help. Especially since the way they teach it is completely different now.
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Post by GhoatMonket on Mar 20, 2019 10:20:11 GMT -6
I am def not going to be much help with my kids on the math homework if they need it. My H has an accounting degree so I will leave that to him. My kids would fail if they needed my help. Especially since the way they teach it is completely different now. I know some accountants that are really, really bad at math. If they send home instructions, please try it or at least watch and maybe they can explain it to you (which is a great way to reinforce concepts). You might find some things that are helpful.
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Minerva
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Post by Minerva on Mar 20, 2019 10:22:12 GMT -6
A teacher will not help a student beyond what they deem acceptable. Any student who goes to the teacher, in theory, will get the same assistance in whatever capacity that teacher is okay with. Students reviewing each other's papers are people on equal-ish footing and don't have the benefit of greater education. I don't care what others do, but in the long run I don't think it helps the student to be overly involved in their schoolwork. Maybe in HS they get better grades, but if they go to college used to having someone oversee the majority of their work it will be harder for them to organize and manage work on their own. It wasn't until here that I heard of parents reading through their high-schooler's essays and that's totally foreign to me. where do tutors and learning centers fall into this? Because both my high school and college offered free tutoring for almost every subject. So is it not really my work if I had a peer review my essay or help me with my spanish homework? I feel like learning to ask the appropriate people for help was one of the most important things I learned in high school and college. My college had a writing program with peers who would read over papers and give comments. I worked with both them and my professors regularly to improve my writing. Obviously parents shouldn’t be doing full rewrites, but I think more students should be emboldened to ask for academic help and proofreading from parents/teachers/peers. Learning to seek out and incorporate constructive criticism from a variety of sources is a useful skill.
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Post by katespade on Mar 20, 2019 10:30:01 GMT -6
A teacher will not help a student beyond what they deem acceptable. Any student who goes to the teacher, in theory, will get the same assistance in whatever capacity that teacher is okay with. Students reviewing each other's papers are people on equal-ish footing and don't have the benefit of greater education. I don't care what others do, but in the long run I don't think it helps the student to be overly involved in their schoolwork. Maybe in HS they get better grades, but if they go to college used to having someone oversee the majority of their work it will be harder for them to organize and manage work on their own. It wasn't until here that I heard of parents reading through their high-schooler's essays and that's totally foreign to me. where do tutors and learning centers fall into this? Because both my high school and college offered free tutoring for almost every subject. So is it not really my work if I had a peer review my essay or help me with my spanish homework? I work at a learning center. We are VERY careful that the work we review with student is always their work. So for example, rather than saying “you need a comma there” I’ll indicate that additional punctuation is needed in the sentence and ask if they can tell me where it should go. I never give specific phrasing guidance either.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2019 10:31:19 GMT -6
I honestly don’t see where people are not recognizing or acknowledging any of this. But again, maybe I missed something. Or maybe it is I that is missing something. I don't know anymore, I feel like I'm starting to lose the plot here. As I said before, I think a lot of it is semantics - like you said earlier that you didn't think/know if your parents proofreading was an unfair advantage and that unfair advantage ≠ privilege to you. I personally think they are the same, just different levels/kinds of privilege. I am not the authority on this subject, just sharing my thoughts. I also think that some of what I'm reacting to is the pushback like, why is it wrong to help with homework? (I didn't say it was, but this at least I can kind of understand.) It's not the same as bribing! (Of course not.) Why should we all have to check out of our kids' education just because other kids don't have the same privilege? (No one is saying that.) I think the attitude of "I acknowledged it, now what more do you want from me" is a little off-putting. Sure, acknowledging it is the first step, but then getting defensive about it kind of takes away from it. I get what you're saying. This same conversation happens (not here, in life...but maybe here but anyway) when the conversation about race/privilege is brought up. It is easy for the privileged to get immediately defensive (aka fragile), and that's something we need to work really hard on not doing. Sometimes the answer is just to basically acknowledge the privilege and then NOT be fragile about it. Like sometimes it's ok to just...take a beating (for lack of better term) because frankly it's what under- and less-privileged folks have been doing for...ever.
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loony
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Post by loony on Mar 20, 2019 10:32:25 GMT -6
where do tutors and learning centers fall into this? Because both my high school and college offered free tutoring for almost every subject. So is it not really my work if I had a peer review my essay or help me with my spanish homework? I feel like learning to ask the appropriate people for help was one of the most important things I learned in high school and college. My college had a writing program with peers who would read over papers and give comments. I worked with both them and my professors regularly to improve my writing. Obviously parents shouldn’t be doing full rewrites, but I think more students should be emboldened to ask for academic help and proofreading from parents/teachers/peers. Learning to seek out and incorporate constructive criticism from a variety of sources is a useful skill. Outreach for this is part of my job. We have amazing resources, but students are to shy/proud/scared to use them or have no idea the scope of what we offer. On the flip side, some of the adult students we have expect tutors to basically do their homework for them.
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Post by miawallace on Mar 20, 2019 10:32:49 GMT -6
This is a sensitive topic and both ends are projecting and getting defensive.
I have my own private thoughts on various subjects discussed today. To me, It’s not a negative thing to have an unfair advantage. Ideally, everyone would go to college, get the job, pass those exams, get those grades based on their effort alone but it doesn’t work that way. Not here and not out there in the world evidently. Many things aren’t fair. Even between my siblings and I, I can see my kid will have an unfair advantage over her cousins. I know it. I own it. It’s life. It’s not a negative thing.
What I will say is that there’s a huge difference between unfair and unethical. Which brings us back to the beginning of parents helicoptering school and life. Which is why I said we just need to reflect. If you think you are fine with what you are doing them koko. You’re for sure not going to jail over it.
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thatgolfb
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Post by thatgolfb on Mar 20, 2019 10:35:05 GMT -6
Why are you assuming every parent will over step? What about college aged siblings? They have the "advantage" of higher education, so is their assistance not allowed, even though they are technically peers? Was I wrong to help my friends that had problems with math classes that I had already completed and had moved on to other classes? I had an advantage of additional education in that subject. I'm not assuming every parent will overstep but people have referred to their parents going through their whole essays with the red pen (and I'm not just talking something major like a college entrance essay, regular HW assignments) in the past. To ME, this is overstepping and different than asking for help on a specific part of an assignment. In this thread people said that their parents did this? When was this discussed? The only person that said red pen or regular homework assignments was you, if I recall correctly.
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Post by angelashly on Mar 20, 2019 10:37:19 GMT -6
where do tutors and learning centers fall into this? Because both my high school and college offered free tutoring for almost every subject. So is it not really my work if I had a peer review my essay or help me with my spanish homework? I think one of the big distinctions is access. Everyone has access to free tutoring, which is great. Not everyone has access to a capable parent at home or a paid tutor. Again, *I* am not saying that you shouldn't help or pay for a tutor for your kid, just that these are privileges that some kids have over others. But in this manner I had access to it but had to work those hours that it was available. I know this was true for a lot of my friends
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maybe
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Post by maybe on Mar 20, 2019 10:37:54 GMT -6
Or maybe it is I that is missing something. I don't know anymore, I feel like I'm starting to lose the plot here. As I said before, I think a lot of it is semantics - like you said earlier that you didn't think/know if your parents proofreading was an unfair advantage and that unfair advantage ≠ privilege to you. I personally think they are the same, just different levels/kinds of privilege. I am not the authority on this subject, just sharing my thoughts. I also think that some of what I'm reacting to is the pushback like, why is it wrong to help with homework? (I didn't say it was, but this at least I can kind of understand.) It's not the same as bribing! (Of course not.) Why should we all have to check out of our kids' education just because other kids don't have the same privilege? (No one is saying that.) I think the attitude of "I acknowledged it, now what more do you want from me" is a little off-putting. Sure, acknowledging it is the first step, but then getting defensive about it kind of takes away from it. I get what you're saying. This same conversation happens (not here, in life...but maybe here but anyway) when the conversation about race/privilege is brought up. It is easy for the privileged to get immediately defensive (aka fragile), and that's something we need to work really hard on not doing. Sometimes the answer is just to basically acknowledge the privilege and then NOT be fragile about it. Like sometimes it's ok to just...take a beating (for lack of better term) because frankly it's what under- and less-privileged folks have been doing for...ever. You have articulated my feelings so beautifully. I am going to go hang out in a more boring thread because this one made my blood pressure rise a bit.
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lizblue
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Post by lizblue on Mar 20, 2019 10:41:14 GMT -6
I feel like this argument around privilege and advantage is getting weird. Recognizing one's privilege does not mean giving it back. It also doesn't mean that recognizing it is the end of the story. Inequalities that exist in schooling are due to so many macro reasons and I don't know that contemplating helping/not helping your own kids with their homework is going to make much of a difference in the big picture.
The reasons children don't have parental help at home for homework is a lot to unpack and maybe I don't know that we are discussing the roots of the issue: single parent who works long hours, and/or inadequate minimum wage earners who have to work long hours, inequitable access to healthcare and/or food, race gap in school performance, underfunded schools, language barrier, etc.
Action items: -Volunteer for after school tutoring -Volunteer to teach ESL classes -write letters to government officials/attend protests for raising minimum wage, providing universal free lunch, access to childcare and healthcare -join the PTA and ask about the race gap in school performance and if there is one, demand concrete answers as to how school officials are addressing it -don't try and get your school taxes reduced by re-valuating your home. People would rather pay a lawyer to fight their tax bill than support their school by paying taxes and it hurts school districts that don't have enough money
I feel like we all agree we want to raise decent human beings who are not entitled assholes, but that's not enough, I don't think. We also need to teach them to stand up for justice and lead by example by using our voice and/or privilege.
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AmyG
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Post by AmyG on Mar 20, 2019 10:41:24 GMT -6
brux I think about that too. I volunteer with a local elementary school reading/tutoring program and have a monthly charitable donation to that program. They do great work and it’s a way for me to share the benefits my kids have (meaning my time, $ and educational background) with other kids whose circumstances are different. It’s not “equal” to the time I spend with my own kids though, you might be thinking of something more substantial. I doubt I'll ever achieve "equal." I think doing something more than nothing while keeping an eye on a goal of "equal" is best case scenario. But yeah, I see requests for volunteers at my kid's school and they never get enough. And it makes me wonder if it's the same situation in neighborhoods that don't have the same parental resources. And then I spiral into making contracts with myself to pay for college application fees for whole classes of high school seniors. My son works at his university part time with admissions. He says he wishes more kids knew some of the stuff he learned in training. One that totally blew his mind is that if you know you cant afford admission fees or admissions deposits the fin aid office working with admissions office (at his school at least) can push those charges off to be paid by your financial aid when it comes in. So his school is only $25 application fee but then quickly followed by a $350 deposit which goes towards housing and tuition, but sometimes people just cant pay that. Hes telling people to call the fin aid office asap in the process to ask if they can waive fees or if they can have fees pushed off til fall when fin aid $ comes in.
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Post by GhoatMonket on Mar 20, 2019 10:42:57 GMT -6
I think one of the big distinctions is access. Everyone has access to free tutoring, which is great. Not everyone has access to a capable parent at home or a paid tutor. Again, *I* am not saying that you shouldn't help or pay for a tutor for your kid, just that these are privileges that some kids have over others. But in this manner I had access to it but had to work those hours that it was available. I know this was true for a lot of my friends Or those that rode the bus were unable to come in early or stay late to get any help or they wouldn't have any transportation home. That happened a lot at my school. Or they were in charge of younger siblings and couldn't for that reason. Just because it's offered doesn't mean everyone has access.
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Post by angelashly on Mar 20, 2019 10:45:53 GMT -6
I feel like this argument around privilege and advantage is getting weird. Recognizing one's privilege does not mean giving it back. It also doesn't mean that recognizing it is the end of the story. Inequalities that exist in schooling are due to so many macro reasons and I don't know that contemplating helping/not helping your own kids with their homework is going to make much of a difference in the big picture. The reasons children don't have parental help at home for homework is a lot to unpack and maybe I don't know that we are discussing the roots of the issue: single parent who works long hours, and/or inadequate minimum wage earners who have to work long hours, inequitable access to healthcare and/or food, race gap in school performance, underfunded schools, language barrier, etc. Action items: -Volunteer for after school tutoring -Volunteer to teach ESL classes -write letters to government officials/attend protests for raising minimum wage, providing universal free lunch, access to childcare and healthcare -join the PTA and ask about the race gap in school performance and if there is one, demand concrete answers as to how school officials are addressing it -don't try and get your school taxes reduced by re-valuating your home. People would rather pay a lawyer to fight their tax bill than support their school by paying taxes and it hurts school districts that don't have enough money I feel like we all agree we want to raise decent human beings who are not entitled assholes, but that's not enough, I don't think. We also need to teach them to stand up for justice and lead by example by using our voice and/or privilege. My boss knows a couple who have been working to get universal pre-school in our area. It is a step and I know it isn't the end all be all, but i have been putting effort into helping them to see some of their advantages that may cause them to make decisions on the preschool that would hinder people going even with it being free.
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Post by angelashly on Mar 20, 2019 10:47:17 GMT -6
AmyG , that’s awesome about your son’s school! I haaaaate that’s there even an upfront financial cost just to apply to colleges. yep the cost to apply caused me to not even look at some colleges because I didn't have it
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piratecat
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Post by piratecat on Mar 20, 2019 10:48:51 GMT -6
Or maybe it is I that is missing something. I don't know anymore, I feel like I'm starting to lose the plot here. As I said before, I think a lot of it is semantics - like you said earlier that you didn't think/know if your parents proofreading was an unfair advantage and that unfair advantage ≠ privilege to you. I personally think they are the same, just different levels/kinds of privilege. I am not the authority on this subject, just sharing my thoughts. I also think that some of what I'm reacting to is the pushback like, why is it wrong to help with homework? (I didn't say it was, but this at least I can kind of understand.) It's not the same as bribing! (Of course not.) Why should we all have to check out of our kids' education just because other kids don't have the same privilege? (No one is saying that.) I think the attitude of "I acknowledged it, now what more do you want from me" is a little off-putting. Sure, acknowledging it is the first step, but then getting defensive about it kind of takes away from it. I get what you're saying. This same conversation happens (not here, in life...but maybe here but anyway) when the conversation about race/privilege is brought up. It is easy for the privileged to get immediately defensive (aka fragile), and that's something we need to work really hard on not doing. Sometimes the answer is just to basically acknowledge the privilege and then NOT be fragile about it. Like sometimes it's ok to just...take a beating (for lack of better term) because frankly it's what under- and less-privileged folks have been doing for...ever. And I think recognizing that there is no easy and quick solution is important too. Acknowledge your privilege and stick around and commit to being in it for the long haul.
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piratecat
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Post by piratecat on Mar 20, 2019 10:53:08 GMT -6
I think one of the big distinctions is access. Everyone has access to free tutoring, which is great. Not everyone has access to a capable parent at home or a paid tutor. Again, *I* am not saying that you shouldn't help or pay for a tutor for your kid, just that these are privileges that some kids have over others. But in this manner I had access to it but had to work those hours that it was available. I know this was true for a lot of my friends You're right, so even that isn't really accessible to everyone. Again, I don't think the solution is to take it away (just like I'm not saying you can't help your kids at home) until everyone can have it but it is still a step in the right direction. So maybe the next step is better financial support for students that need it so that they wouldn't have to work those hours. And provide transportation. All of those things.
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ftwr
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Post by ftwr on Mar 20, 2019 10:54:30 GMT -6
AmyG , that’s awesome about your son’s school! I haaaaate that’s there even an upfront financial cost just to apply to colleges. yep the cost to apply caused me to not even look at some colleges because I didn't have it It's the reason our college defers it until your first semester of registration for everyone and most students will have it paid by their financial aid. We're all about removing those barriers. I remember applying and having to do my applications around when my mom would have the money. I only ended up applying to three schools. To be honest, I'm not even sure the checks my mom wrote didn't bounce.
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thatgolfb
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Post by thatgolfb on Mar 20, 2019 10:55:00 GMT -6
I feel like this argument around privilege and advantage is getting weird. Recognizing one's privilege does not mean giving it back. It also doesn't mean that recognizing it is the end of the story. Inequalities that exist in schooling are due to so many macro reasons and I don't know that contemplating helping/not helping your own kids with their homework is going to make much of a difference in the big picture. The reasons children don't have parental help at home for homework is a lot to unpack and maybe I don't know that we are discussing the roots of the issue: single parent who works long hours, and/or inadequate minimum wage earners who have to work long hours, inequitable access to healthcare and/or food, race gap in school performance, underfunded schools, language barrier, etc. Action items: -Volunteer for after school tutoring -Volunteer to teach ESL classes -write letters to government officials/attend protests for raising minimum wage, providing universal free lunch, access to childcare and healthcare -join the PTA and ask about the race gap in school performance and if there is one, demand concrete answers as to how school officials are addressing it -don't try and get your school taxes reduced by re-valuating your home. People would rather pay a lawyer to fight their tax bill than support their school by paying taxes and it hurts school districts that don't have enough money I feel like we all agree we want to raise decent human beings who are not entitled assholes, but that's not enough, I don't think. We also need to teach them to stand up for justice and lead by example by using our voice and/or privilege. My boss knows a couple who have been working to get universal pre-school in our area. It is a step and I know it isn't the end all be all, but i have been putting effort into helping them to see some of their advantages that may cause them to make decisions on the preschool that would hinder people going even with it being free. Our governor is a big proponent of this and I really hope he can get some traction for it.
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piratecat
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Post by piratecat on Mar 20, 2019 10:57:20 GMT -6
I feel like this argument around privilege and advantage is getting weird. Recognizing one's privilege does not mean giving it back. It also doesn't mean that recognizing it is the end of the story. Inequalities that exist in schooling are due to so many macro reasons and I don't know that contemplating helping/not helping your own kids with their homework is going to make much of a difference in the big picture. The reasons children don't have parental help at home for homework is a lot to unpack and maybe I don't know that we are discussing the roots of the issue: single parent who works long hours, and/or inadequate minimum wage earners who have to work long hours, inequitable access to healthcare and/or food, race gap in school performance, underfunded schools, language barrier, etc. Action items: -Volunteer for after school tutoring -Volunteer to teach ESL classes -write letters to government officials/attend protests for raising minimum wage, providing universal free lunch, access to childcare and healthcare -join the PTA and ask about the race gap in school performance and if there is one, demand concrete answers as to how school officials are addressing it -don't try and get your school taxes reduced by re-valuating your home. People would rather pay a lawyer to fight their tax bill than support their school by paying taxes and it hurts school districts that don't have enough money I feel like we all agree we want to raise decent human beings who are not entitled assholes, but that's not enough, I don't think. We also need to teach them to stand up for justice and lead by example by using our voice and/or privilege. Thank you for this.
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soup
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Post by soup on Mar 20, 2019 10:58:00 GMT -6
You guys, I am seriously worried about this “new math”’stuff I keep hearing about. How am I supposed to “help” my kid learn it if I don’t even know what it is? At least reading is still the same, right? Right!? Girl. You haven’t heard about new reading yet??? I haven’t gone through the whole thread yet, but I had to say that this gave me a hearty actual LOL.
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AmyG
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Post by AmyG on Mar 20, 2019 11:00:30 GMT -6
AmyG , that’s awesome about your son’s school! I haaaaate that’s there even an upfront financial cost just to apply to colleges. yep the cost to apply caused me to not even look at some colleges because I didn't have it My son limited where he applied for this reason for sure.
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soup
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Post by soup on Mar 20, 2019 11:11:11 GMT -6
I don’t really have much more to say because I’m Bitter Betty about this. LOL. Bravo to piratecat, @karenwalker, and @frank. And, yes, I will have to proofread my daughter’s application to be on equal footing with the rest of you (and also because, at age five, she missed the toilet yesterday and dragged her stuffed animals through the pee puddle and needs every advantage possible). #notharvardmaterial
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AmyG
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Post by AmyG on Mar 20, 2019 11:13:04 GMT -6
There are places that will help you write a college entrance essay. Then edit the hell out of it. And send it off to the colleges for you.
There are places tgat will do the same for scholarship applications.
It costs $$$ I dont have.
My kid could use the community college writing center on papers since he was dual enrolled high school and college at same time. You know what they do? Take a red pen to your paper and give you info on organization, style and whole rewrite kinda thing.
I dont really care if a parent takes a red pen to their kids application essay to do similarly.
My kid didnt have any teachers who would help by the time he was doing his applying at university stuff. Info the life skills teacher at the high school gave was patently wrong (car insurance will cost an exact % of your income, take max college loans etc)
Son didnt use peers for editing papers cause he experienced peer taking photo of his paper, copying it and turning it in as his pwn work. Son almost got expelled for plagiarism in that, til other kid showed the pic. Son still got f on paper for allowing it, even tho teacher required peer review in class.
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piratecat
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Post by piratecat on Mar 20, 2019 11:17:46 GMT -6
I don’t really have much more to say because I’m Bitter Betty about this. LOL. Bravo to piratecat , @karenwalker , and @frank . And, yes, I will have to proofread my daughter’s application to be on equal footing with the rest of you (and also because, at age five, she missed the toilet yesterday and dragged her stuffed animals through the pee puddle and needs every advantage possible). #notharvardmaterial I think there are tutors for that but you know not everyone has the privilege of access to toilet tutors.
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piratecat
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Post by piratecat on Mar 20, 2019 11:19:11 GMT -6
Also, if not missing the toilet is part of what it takes to get in to Harvard, you would think there would be a lot less men at Harvard.
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