piratecat
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Post by piratecat on Mar 19, 2019 20:19:35 GMT -6
We have literally gone from talking about actual fraud and illegal activity to saying parents who proofread and help with work are giving their kids an unfair advantage. I think the conversation has evolved, as they do. ::shrug::
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soup
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Post by soup on Mar 19, 2019 20:32:50 GMT -6
Maybe somebody can explain to this Bitter Betty what it means to have privilege without having an unfair advantage.
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Cher
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Post by Cher on Mar 19, 2019 20:33:43 GMT -6
I live in the Disney thread now. No one follow me.
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thatgolfb
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Post by thatgolfb on Mar 19, 2019 20:44:26 GMT -6
Maybe somebody can explain to this Bitter Betty what it means to have privilege without having an unfair advantage. Your perspective is that these two things are the same thing and that’s fine, if that’s your opinion.
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thatgolfb
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Post by thatgolfb on Mar 19, 2019 20:45:01 GMT -6
Like honestly I don’t know what else to say about it. I’ve used all my words for the day on this topic.
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soup
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Post by soup on Mar 19, 2019 20:46:40 GMT -6
Maybe somebody can explain to this Bitter Betty what it means to have privilege without having an unfair advantage. Your perspective is that these two things are the same thing and that’s fine, if that’s your opinion. Correct. That is my perspective. I’m asking that somebody articulate why they are not.
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piratecat
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Post by piratecat on Mar 19, 2019 21:04:40 GMT -6
Maybe somebody can explain to this Bitter Betty what it means to have privilege without having an unfair advantage. I think it is semantics but I can see why they would feel different. I think "unfair" implies that you didn't deserve the grades or getting into a good college or whatever, which isn't necessarily true, assuming your parents didn't bribe the school. You can't change your race or parents' economic status or education level, etc. to commonly throw away the privilege. On the other hand, it is certainly "not fair" to the people that don't have these advantages, hence "unfair".
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thatgolfb
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Post by thatgolfb on Mar 19, 2019 21:06:15 GMT -6
soup I am not going back in the thread and looking, but I believe what I said was that I don’t think I parents helping me throughout school is an “unfair” advantage. Should they not have helped me? I am using the term “helped” loosely. No one did projects for me. No one wrote papers for me. I earned my grades by myself. Do I think at its base, privilege is an unfair advantage in and of itself? Yes. These are two different things to me. *to me*
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soup
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Post by soup on Mar 19, 2019 21:08:08 GMT -6
I guess I am just very literal.
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piratecat
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Post by piratecat on Mar 19, 2019 21:28:12 GMT -6
IDK how to say this without writing a total novel. But basically, A parent helping a kid learn is not an unfair advantage. A parent gaming the system so their kid does better than other kids is an unfair advantage. So, teaching your kid math that helps them understand concepts better and therefore do better on the test = kosher. Asking the teacher for the test so you can teach your kid those questions specifically = not kosher. I took a lot of offense to the idea that proofreading is an unfair advantage because proofreading is a really natural part of the process of developing writing skills. I'm not going to take that vital part of the process away from one student just because another doesn't have it. I would rather equalize by providing that support to he student who doesn't have it through strong after school experiences/more in-school support, if the parent isn't able to provide it. I'm just never going to be against learning, no matter how privileged. I'm going to fight harder for the non-privileged kid to have opportunities, for sure, but I'm not going to take learning opportunities away from a kid just because another kid doesn't have them. It is unfair in the sense that it is not fair that not everyone can have that support at home. (Gah, can someone's mom proofread and help me rewrite that sentence?) I don't think anyone is trying to take away these advantages, as some/most advantages can't be taken away anyway. I imagine most of our own kids are privileged with well-educated parents that provide some amount of educational support at home. I read to my kid every day and hope to raise him to be bilingual. I think even soup said she would proofread her kids' papers. We are not saying you shouldn't do those things.
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McBenny
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Post by McBenny on Mar 19, 2019 21:28:40 GMT -6
Maybe somebody can explain to this Bitter Betty what it means to have privilege without having an unfair advantage. I can't explain shit. What I can tell you is that I find it disgusting that as a minority you already know you have to more that meet standards you have to excel to get notice or recognition and even then you might not get your due or you get it begrudgingly. Disgusting that one would think that I must have an ounce of care for these kids who more than likely have been having their mediocrity put on a pedastal and applauded all there lives while other kids have to kick scratch and scream to just be given equal not better. If it's bitter I'm called I will take that. I have paved my own way beyond what my immigrant parents could. Everything I have how little or how much I got on my own. Sure I would have loved to have resources but that wasn't my hand. What white people need to realize is that privilege is more about the grace and benefit of the doubt that race is extended. You score high it's not questioned. A brown child scores high and they double check that shit hard. Even on spelling tests in the second grade because the benefit of the doubt we get was that it must be a fluke. Save that poor them narrative for ejt best person I can't do it. They will go to bed and lay their head and worry about what shame? Not holes in clothes, too little food, short on the rent, family in prison or having ICE issues. I don't wish them ill will but in the box that this scandal is I'm not boo hooing. So they have to pick another school or go a year late. Leave friends. I can't muster sympathy or empathy. This scandal has just highlighted what some people have been doing for years. Using their money and stature to elevate fuckery.
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McBenny
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Post by McBenny on Mar 19, 2019 21:30:14 GMT -6
Proofreading their written is not the issue. Doing the work for the child is an issue.
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piratecat
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Post by piratecat on Mar 19, 2019 21:42:58 GMT -6
It's okay to benefit from your privilege, you can't help it. You can acknowledge it and I promise you won't have to give everything back.
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Post by hardlyluck on Mar 19, 2019 22:47:12 GMT -6
And this is all why my students, 1st gen, minority and/or low-income kids, are at such a huge disadvantage. They all desperately want to go to college, and they are SMART and work their asses off, but they are up against: ~Aunt Becky/Felicity Huffman ~Grandpa Moneybags buying a library for his mediocre progeny ~Parents dropping $$$ for college counselor ~College-educated parents completing or "helping" with applications/essays/etc These kids obviously aren't bribing anyone, but they also don't even have someone who has done it before helping them though the process. They have to figure it all out on their own and do it all themselves. Well, they have me, because this is my literal job, but I have 60 of them this year and there is only one of me. And I'm obviously teaching them to do it themselves and not doing it for them. But FFS, this is like having your kid do his science project all on his own and then getting to the science fair and seeing that a bunch of scientist parents did the projects for everyone else and your kid gets a D even though he did his own damn work. I know you guys know this, I'm just so fired up about it right now. I would say this idea is a recent eye-opener for most here. It was quite a long time ago, but in a UO or FFFC I brought up something about proof-reading HS-aged kids essays and I thought it was inappropriate. The majority of responses were basically that of course they will help their kids with their homework and why wouldn't I. This is why. At HS kids are more than old enough to do their own damn work. Their grades should be a reflection of their ability alone and not their ability plus their parent's oversight. If they want peer feedback or take the time to go to the teacher's office for questions that's fine. Or if they want my feedback about a specific part of their work--fine. But going through all of their essays with the red pen is an unfair advantage. These two posts, to me, is where it started sounding like some posters are saying that proofreading your childs essay is akin to cheating. I can admit that I had a knee jerk defensive reaction to “inappropriate”
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 23:57:14 GMT -6
You know what’s unfair? Having dead parents! They’re no help at all.
(Bringing it back to the UO or maybe FFFC thread of a few weeks ago)
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Pistol
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Post by Pistol on Mar 20, 2019 6:26:11 GMT -6
1: a lot of these kids would not have gotten in on their own merits without the cheating. Wouldn’t a person at 18 fill out their own paperwork and also have the awareness of knowing that you weren’t qualified for the school? 2: as stated above. They are not fucked. Their lives are not “ruined” by any stretch. Considering the amount of parents who call me daily that I have to remind them that their preshus are over the age of 18 and I can't in fact talk to them about anything despite them paying the bill. I would say no. I also work with honors students so they should in fact know these things In 2006 I had issues with the housing people at college. My mom asked if I wanted her to call. Dude. No. I’m 18 I can handle it myself. She worked at a college. I felt she would know better. Instead she tells me that she just knows other parents have made similar calls and saw results. I was floored that a college would listen to a mom or dad short of they paid for a building so better keep preshus happy.
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piratecat
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Post by piratecat on Mar 20, 2019 6:40:23 GMT -6
I would say this idea is a recent eye-opener for most here. It was quite a long time ago, but in a UO or FFFC I brought up something about proof-reading HS-aged kids essays and I thought it was inappropriate. The majority of responses were basically that of course they will help their kids with their homework and why wouldn't I. This is why. At HS kids are more than old enough to do their own damn work. Their grades should be a reflection of their ability alone and not their ability plus their parent's oversight. If they want peer feedback or take the time to go to the teacher's office for questions that's fine. Or if they want my feedback about a specific part of their work--fine. But going through all of their essays with the red pen is an unfair advantage. These two posts, to me, is where it started sounding like some posters are saying that proofreading your childs essay is akin to cheating. I can admit that I had a knee jerk defensive reaction to “inappropriate” Interesting. It didn't read to me that way but I understand we are coming with different perspectives.
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piratecat
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Post by piratecat on Mar 20, 2019 6:41:29 GMT -6
I also think that helping with schoolwork for a high school aged kid is vastly different from reading to your young child and helping with their schoolwork and feel like people were lumping those together.
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Post by GhoatMonket on Mar 20, 2019 6:49:09 GMT -6
These two posts, to me, is where it started sounding like some posters are saying that proofreading your childs essay is akin to cheating. I can admit that I had a knee jerk defensive reaction to “inappropriate” Interesting. It didn't read to me that way but I understand we are coming with different perspectives. That is what was said. Helping proofread a major paper or scholarship application was put on the same level as paying $15k to change your kid's test answer because "it's not their work". Like on what planet is double checking punctuation the same as a proctor changing test answers?
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Post by angelashly on Mar 20, 2019 6:53:29 GMT -6
You know what’s unfair? Having dead parents! They’re no help at all. (Bringing it back to the UO or maybe FFFC thread of a few weeks ago) My dad went through several surgeries, cancer, and many other things during my high school years. He was very much the parent who would help if I asked AFTER I tried myself. He took a huge interest in my schooling because it was important to him that I go to school and college and everything that he didn't get to. I absolutely see that as a privilege, but it wasn't even close to what others in my school were getting so I get it. All this being said I am going to use my privilege for doing the same for my daughter. She knows that we will help her and I check her homework daily to make sure she did it right. we do library runs every other week and read a lot. I have the math workbooks and apps now because she is slower in math than reading. I want her to do things on her own and she does, but as a bi-racial girl she already has so many disadvantages that I can't see myself not doing these things. Yes she is advantaged and privileged and she will know in fact that she is, but I will not be able to not help her just because others don't have it. I don't know if what I am saying is coming across right or not. Again because this place I DO KNOW THAT I HAVE PRIVILEGE AND ADVANTAGES AS DOES MY DD
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thatgolfb
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Post by thatgolfb on Mar 20, 2019 6:59:42 GMT -6
I also think that helping with schoolwork for a high school aged kid is vastly different from reading to your young child and helping with their schoolwork and feel like people were lumping those together. But I also thinking people are lumping in together proofreading and doing a kid’s work for them. It was definitely insinuated that any help in high school meant the kid wasn’t earning their grades on their own. That’s how I read it anyway.
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sterling
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Post by sterling on Mar 20, 2019 7:03:35 GMT -6
You guys can do what my mom did, be such a pain in the ass “proofreader” and make extensive nonsensical recommendations of what I should write, say, and feel that you’ll never be asked to “help” again!
#protips
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sterling
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Post by sterling on Mar 20, 2019 7:06:33 GMT -6
This thread, man. A million twists and turns! I’m largely with McBenny in feeling no sympathy for the trust fund kids who will now, what, get to be wildly privileged and successful by going to UCSB instead of USC? Nah. Can’t get it up for that.
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piratecat
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Post by piratecat on Mar 20, 2019 7:10:22 GMT -6
Interesting. It didn't read to me that way but I understand we are coming with different perspectives. That is what was said. Helping proofread a major paper or scholarship application was put on the same level as paying $15k to change your kid's test answer because "it's not their work". Like on what planet is double checking punctuation the same as a proctor changing test answers? I am not reading that at all. I honestly do not believe anyone is on that planet.
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Post by GhoatMonket on Mar 20, 2019 7:16:35 GMT -6
That is what was said. Helping proofread a major paper or scholarship application was put on the same level as paying $15k to change your kid's test answer because "it's not their work". Like on what planet is double checking punctuation the same as a proctor changing test answers? I am not reading that at all. I honestly do not believe anyone is on that planet. The post was re-quoted on this page. Read it again. She says helping them means they aren't doing their own work and they don't deserve the grades they get because they got help from a parent and not a teacher. So what if another student helps? Is that cheating? What is it's a sibling? Is that unfair to only children? What about if a tutor helps? Or is that more unfair advantage, even if it's an unpaid tutor? Saying a parent can't help ever because then the kid didn't earn the paper, but literally anyone else can and it's ok is ridiculous.
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brux
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Post by brux on Mar 20, 2019 7:16:47 GMT -6
You know what’s unfair? Having dead parents! They’re no help at all. (Bringing it back to the UO or maybe FFFC thread of a few weeks ago) omg, perfection.
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Post by GhoatMonket on Mar 20, 2019 7:17:47 GMT -6
What if their parent is their teacher?
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piratecat
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Post by piratecat on Mar 20, 2019 7:20:02 GMT -6
I also think that helping with schoolwork for a high school aged kid is vastly different from reading to your young child and helping with their schoolwork and feel like people were lumping those together. But I also thinking people are lumping in together proofreading and doing a kid’s work for them. It was definitely insinuated that any help in high school meant the kid wasn’t earning their grades on their own. That’s how I read it anyway. That is less of a leap than saying proofreading is "on the same level" as paying to have test results changed. I think we are talking about advantages of various scales. There is bribing and other illegal activities on one extreme end, and then there are doing the kid's work, proofreading, reading to them as babies, paying for tutors, speaking English as a native language, being white... these are all advantages. It doesn't mean all of them are wrong or all on the same level. Just because the conversation started at bribing and lead to the others doesn't mean they are all the same.
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Post by ladybrienne on Mar 20, 2019 7:20:12 GMT -6
You know what’s unfair? Having dead parents! They’re no help at all. (Bringing it back to the UO or maybe FFFC thread of a few weeks ago) OMG I read this at first and I was like daaaaaaaamn cat that is DARK! And then I remembered. Lol.
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brux
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Post by brux on Mar 20, 2019 7:22:22 GMT -6
I do think about this privilege and unfair advantage thing a lot.
I'm noodling on ways that I can make a contract with myself to share an equal amount of my time and money with DS and with students/a school/a student with fewer advantages.
I feel strongly that if I'm spending time to help my own kid learn how to research and write a paper, I should find that same energy to help others in an equal amount. But I need to spend more time thinking through this contract I want because I don't want to jump into some pool of white savior tears.
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