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Post by punker1212 on Feb 1, 2020 12:44:44 GMT -6
I mean yes, absolutely. Everyone gets to cast or not cast their vote as they deem. No one owns another persons vote. BUT how is this different than the Never Hillary crowd? How does this privilege support marginalized populations being very seriously hurt by our current administration, in refusing to suck it up and vote against Trump, if not for the nominee? RTA and on top of that, these same voters really don’t get to rally about unifying the party or play the blame game about who cost whom the 2020 election. Because Senator Bernard Sanders may also seriously hurt marginalized people. His record, his behavior, his associations, and his own words do not convince me that he is here for women or POC. My never Bernie stance is based on him as a candidate and person. I cannot even with the comparison to HRC. People who were “never Hillary” were not that way because of her record and accomplishments. They were that way to stick it to establishment and/or because they are misogynists. Seriously? Hillary has also had racist and homophobic posturing in her history. I can empathize with your logistics regarding your own state’s primary. But yes, I think there is a lot of privilege there and From my perspective, the message needs to go to the GOP, not the DNC.
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Post by jkjacq on Feb 1, 2020 12:44:57 GMT -6
I’ll plus one jaygee. I’m in a deep red state where it really isn’t going to change if I vote blobfish for potus. 45 is gonna walk away with 2 electoral votes here. So if I choose to not vote for Bernie because I sincerely believe he’s the other side of the same coin of what we have now it doesn’t change anything here. I’m trying to be more open about the old man brigade but that doesn’t mean I can’t find them as problematic as what we have. Downballot here matters so much more.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Feb 1, 2020 12:46:18 GMT -6
I’m sharing this not because it’s my view but because this is an actual viewpoint that people have and I think it’s worth considering. It’s worth listening to a Black woman on this. Again not saying anyone has to agree or that this is the view of all Black women, but this is the kind of diversity I have in my twitter feed so I can see all sides. I also have Bernie Bros and regular Bernie supporters (not toxic kind) and I try to take it all in.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Feb 1, 2020 12:47:33 GMT -6
Because Senator Bernard Sanders may also seriously hurt marginalized people. His record, his behavior, his associations, and his own words do not convince me that he is here for women or POC. My never Bernie stance is based on him as a candidate and person. I cannot even with the comparison to HRC. People who were “never Hillary” were not that way because of her record and accomplishments. They were that way to stick it to establishment and/or because they are misogynists. Seriously? Hillary has also had racist and homophobic posturing in her history. I can empathize with your logistics regarding your own state’s primary. But yes, I think there is a lot of privilege there and From my perspective, the message needs to go to the GOP, not the DNC. But it needs to go to the DNC as well. And first imo How many good candidates didn’t make the last debate because of threshold and now the fuckery they’re pullin with the next. Bloomberg hasn’t had to work for this and it’s getting a red carpet rolled out to feb 12.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Feb 1, 2020 12:48:03 GMT -6
Because Senator Bernard Sanders may also seriously hurt marginalized people. His record, his behavior, his associations, and his own words do not convince me that he is here for women or POC. My never Bernie stance is based on him as a candidate and person. I cannot even with the comparison to HRC. People who were “never Hillary” were not that way because of her record and accomplishments. They were that way to stick it to establishment and/or because they are misogynists. Seriously? Hillary has also had racist and homophobic posturing in her history. I can empathize with your logistics regarding your own state’s primary. But yes, I think there is a lot of privilege there and From my perspective, the message needs to go to the GOP, not the DNC. But I’m not GOP. I’m a Democrat. Have been my whole life. I’m the base of the party. I communicate my displeasure of what candidates they put up and what is on their platform to them. I’m never going to vote for anything the GOP is selling so that’s not my problem.
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Post by punker1212 on Feb 1, 2020 12:51:00 GMT -6
Seriously? Hillary has also had racist and homophobic posturing in her history. I can empathize with your logistics regarding your own state’s primary. But yes, I think there is a lot of privilege there and From my perspective, the message needs to go to the GOP, not the DNC. But it needs to go to the DNC as well. And first imo How many good candidates didn’t make the last debate because of threshold and now the fuckery they’re pullin with the next. Bloomberg hasn’t had to work for this and it’s getting a red carpet rolled out to feb 12. The DNC didn’t hear all the protest votes in 2016. And in my state, those third party votes were enough to swing it toward Hillary. Guys I GET really not liking a specific candidate. But these tangible consequences- the Supreme Court, the Paris Accord, freaking Russia and Iran- I do think that is bigger than the DNC. This BS with Bloomberg is obscene. I hope he never gains any traction and fizzles into the night.
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Post by punker1212 on Feb 1, 2020 12:52:29 GMT -6
Seriously? Hillary has also had racist and homophobic posturing in her history. I can empathize with your logistics regarding your own state’s primary. But yes, I think there is a lot of privilege there and From my perspective, the message needs to go to the GOP, not the DNC. But I’m not GOP. I’m a Democrat. Have been my whole life. I’m the base of the party. I communicate my displeasure of what candidates they put up and what is on their platform to them. I’m never going to vote for anything the GOP is selling so that’s not my problem. True. But there were lifelong democrats who also voted for Trump in 2016. The DNC ain’t listening to us!
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Post by punker1212 on Feb 1, 2020 12:55:40 GMT -6
I’ll plus one jaygee. I’m in a deep red state where it really isn’t going to change if I vote blobfish for potus. 45 is gonna walk away with 2 electoral votes here. So if I choose to not vote for Bernie because I sincerely believe he’s the other side of the same coin of what we have now it doesn’t change anything here. I’m trying to be more open about the old man brigade but that doesn’t mean I can’t find them as problematic as what we have. Downballot here matters so much more. The my vote doesn’t matter diatribe has to stop somewhere. I’ve been hearing it from people across all spectrums my entire engaged life and I hope people would vote like theirs DOES matter. All that to say, I’m not holding any ideas that my words will change people’s votes. But I do feel strongly that this is very akin to Never Hillary, does nothing for party unity, and does not actually vote to support marginalized groups.
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Post by jkjacq on Feb 1, 2020 12:56:55 GMT -6
But it needs to go to the DNC as well. And first imo How many good candidates didn’t make the last debate because of threshold and now the fuckery they’re pullin with the next. Bloomberg hasn’t had to work for this and it’s getting a red carpet rolled out to feb 12. The DNC didn’t hear all the protest votes in 2016. And in my state, those third party votes were enough to swing it toward Hillary. Guys I GET really not liking a specific candidate. But these tangible consequences- the Supreme Court, the Paris Accord, freaking Russia and Iran- I do think that is bigger than the DNC. This BS with Bloomberg is obscene. I hope he never gains any traction and fizzles into the night. I understand the implications of 4 more years and I’m terrified at the damage he can do. But what I’m saying is you (royal) need to see the other side as well. If all we do as Dems is try to shame people into voting blue no matter who we’re just as bad as the gop.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Feb 1, 2020 12:59:17 GMT -6
But it needs to go to the DNC as well. And first imo How many good candidates didn’t make the last debate because of threshold and now the fuckery they’re pullin with the next. Bloomberg hasn’t had to work for this and it’s getting a red carpet rolled out to feb 12. The DNC didn’t hear all the protest votes in 2016. And in my state, those third party votes were enough to swing it toward Hillary. Guys I GET really not liking a specific candidate. But these tangible consequences- the Supreme Court, the Paris Accord, freaking Russia and Iran- I do think that is bigger than the DNC. This BS with Bloomberg is obscene. I hope he never gains any traction and fizzles into the night. You’re right - they didn’t. They done fucked up 2020 too. And I’m at my wit’s end. But here’s the thing. I’m ride or die Dems. So I’m going to help fix it. I’m not jumping ship to some third party or bashing the “establishment”. I’m going use my vote, my wallet, my time and energy to build and sustain the Democratic Party I want to see. Because it’s my business. Sanders doesn’t give a shit about the Dems or destroying the party because he comes and goes as it pleases him. If he was such a strong candidate he would run as a damn independent and do the thing. But he can’t, he knows he can’t, so here we are. To your other point. I know the consequences and I don’t find Bernie to be the savior. I don’t trust him to make the right moves or to have the political capital or skills to even get the right things done. That’s where we just have to agree to disagree. But I just want to say - you need to respect that some voters are going to vet him and not support him. Vet him on his actual factual record. This isn’t do I want to go have a beer with him stuff. I don’t “not like” him. I do not think he is qualified to be the president of the United States. Many people felt that way about candidates I supported. There is a difference between a low information voter hoping on a protest vote bandwagon and an engaged voter vetting a candidate and saying he or she is not for me.
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Post by punker1212 on Feb 1, 2020 13:12:49 GMT -6
The DNC didn’t hear all the protest votes in 2016. And in my state, those third party votes were enough to swing it toward Hillary. Guys I GET really not liking a specific candidate. But these tangible consequences- the Supreme Court, the Paris Accord, freaking Russia and Iran- I do think that is bigger than the DNC. This BS with Bloomberg is obscene. I hope he never gains any traction and fizzles into the night. I understand the implications of 4 more years and I’m terrified at the damage he can do. But what I’m saying is you (royal) need to see the other side as well. If all we do as Dems is try to shame people into voting blue no matter who we’re just as bad as the gop. This isn’t coming from a place of shame for me at all and I don’t ever want it to seem that way. In my life I always try to meet people where they are and see their perspective. That’s why I empathize with Trump voters though I vehemently disagree with them. This is coming from empathy and confusion. I empathize because in 2016 it took me a long time to come around to voting for Clinton, whom I strongly disliked, whose record I took great issue with. A lot of listening and reflecting but I got there and was more than happy to cast my vote for her, against Trump, when the time came. The confusion comes from people who really don’t see The similarities between Never Bernie and Never Hillary. I hear his shortcomings. All of our candidates have got short comings. Individually they weigh differently to different voters and I get that. I’m trying to see where people are coming from because what I see is these are similar situations and denying that is myopic.
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Post by dc2london on Feb 1, 2020 13:12:54 GMT -6
FFS how do they manage to bungle this stuff with such consistency?! The candidate has a heart attack and they play it perfectly. But the stuff that they should be able to ",Nope, no thank you!" right out of, they dig in and make it worse
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Post by dc2london on Feb 1, 2020 13:16:30 GMT -6
I’m just coming off from reading some of the politics stuff on GD and I’m feeling so tired. To me, hearing people say they won’t vote for X democratic candidate (I currently exclude Tulsi and Bloomberg in m head because they are polling for shit, but things could change I guess) because they don’t like them is very akin to Sanders supporters who went third party in 2016. Why are Dems sitting around saying their number one goal is to vote out Trump and then at the same time ritualistically badmouthing the candidates? Being Never-fill-in-the-blank-dem doesn’t help us. Painting Sanders akin to Trump doesn’t help get Trump out of office considering his polling numbers. So much is at stake here. Support your candidate and by all means feel free to criticize the others, but keep your eyes on the prize. I wish I could like this ten times.
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richard
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Post by richard on Feb 1, 2020 13:18:10 GMT -6
I will vote for Bernie in the general if it comes to that and sleep fine.
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Post by dc2london on Feb 1, 2020 13:21:05 GMT -6
I’m sharing this not because it’s my view but because this is an actual viewpoint that people have and I think it’s worth considering. It’s worth listening to a Black woman on this. Again not saying anyone has to agree or that this is the view of all Black women, but this is the kind of diversity I have in my twitter feed so I can see all sides. I also have Bernie Bros and regular Bernie supporters (not toxic kind) and I try to take it all in. Ohmygaddddddddhhhtttttt
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Feb 1, 2020 13:23:08 GMT -6
I will just never see being against the most qualified person to ever run for the Presidency as the same as not voting for Bernie (sitting on my hands to not sub an unflattering description). If that’s my blind spot, I’m comfortable in it.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Feb 1, 2020 13:25:10 GMT -6
I’m sharing this not because it’s my view but because this is an actual viewpoint that people have and I think it’s worth considering. It’s worth listening to a Black woman on this. Again not saying anyone has to agree or that this is the view of all Black women, but this is the kind of diversity I have in my twitter feed so I can see all sides. I also have Bernie Bros and regular Bernie supporters (not toxic kind) and I try to take it all in. Ohmygaddddddddhhhtttttt That woman deals with some real shit on the daily and I don’t know how she does it. Give Joe Rogan a chance is some real bullshit.
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Post by punker1212 on Feb 1, 2020 13:25:55 GMT -6
The DNC didn’t hear all the protest votes in 2016. And in my state, those third party votes were enough to swing it toward Hillary. Guys I GET really not liking a specific candidate. But these tangible consequences- the Supreme Court, the Paris Accord, freaking Russia and Iran- I do think that is bigger than the DNC. This BS with Bloomberg is obscene. I hope he never gains any traction and fizzles into the night. You’re right - they didn’t. They done fucked up 2020 too. And I’m at my wit’s end. But here’s the thing. I’m ride or die Dems. So I’m going to help fix it. I’m not jumping ship to some third party or bashing the “establishment”. I’m going use my vote, my wallet, my time and energy to build and sustain the Democratic Party I want to see. Because it’s my business. Sanders doesn’t give a shit about the Dems or destroying the party because he comes and goes as it pleases him. If he was such a strong candidate he would run as a damn independent and do the thing. But he can’t, he knows he can’t, so here we are. To your other point. I know the consequences and I don’t find Bernie to be the savior. I don’t trust him to make the right moves or to have the political capital or skills to even get the right things done. That’s where we just have to agree to disagree. But I just want to say - you need to respect that some voters are going to vet him and not support him. Vet him on his actual factual record. This isn’t do I want to go have a beer with him stuff. I don’t “not like” him. I do not think he is qualified to be the president of the United States. Many people felt that way about candidates I supported. There is a difference between a low information voter hoping on a protest vote bandwagon and an engaged voter vetting a candidate and saying he or she is not for me. Your statement that “you need to respect” where other voters are feels accusatory and hostile to me. I acknowledge I’m a very sensitive person so maybe you didn’t mean it that way. It’s how I received it. I’m also not a low information voter and hope you weren’t insinuating that? I also believe strongly that these voters should be welcomed into the process and supported, not belittled. As I said, I’m not trying to change your mind. I’m trying to understand it. I am of the opinion that this collective mindset is akin to Never Hillary and cries for party unity and the blame game of who cost whom the election are invalid. And, I came here for some space to work out my feelings about this. Please consider that my cohort has been blamed for costing Hillary the 2016 election, so to hear those same voters shouting these same cries that Bernie supporters shouted but still being discredited is in the least disappointing.
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Post by dc2london on Feb 1, 2020 13:27:02 GMT -6
jaygee I love you more than my luggage and it's possible that I misread you but I don't think all of those who sat out 2016 or voted 3rd party did so bc of misogyny or antiestablishment sentiment. There were people rightfully put off by certain parts of her background (superpredators immediately jumps to mind) or really disillusioned after Obama spending 8 years trying to fix the country but, for a number of reasons, a lot of people not seeing things really improve for them and theirs. I'm not coming at you over your never Bernie stance, I just felt the need to offer this other side of the 2016 situation
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Post by dc2london on Feb 1, 2020 13:28:05 GMT -6
That woman deals with some real shit on the daily and I don’t know how she does it. Give Joe Rogan a chance is some real bullshit. I love her. I am so grateful she shares so openly on Twitter bc I learn a lot from her
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Feb 1, 2020 13:33:22 GMT -6
I’m gonna be completely honest. Bernie behaves as much as a petulant child as trump when things aren’t going his way.
From my perspective and only mine All I see is him trying to out yell everyone else and making sure everyone else is at a kiddie table. And when he/his campaign gets called on the bullshit they pay lip service to an apology.
He makes me very very angry.
Also liberal judges Iran/Iraq etc. none of that matters if we don’t do something about McConnell and if you can’t compromise and be willing to let others take credit even if it was your damn bill.
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Post by punker1212 on Feb 1, 2020 13:34:14 GMT -6
I’m sharing this not because it’s my view but because this is an actual viewpoint that people have and I think it’s worth considering. It’s worth listening to a Black woman on this. Again not saying anyone has to agree or that this is the view of all Black women, but this is the kind of diversity I have in my twitter feed so I can see all sides. I also have Bernie Bros and regular Bernie supporters (not toxic kind) and I try to take it all in. Ohmygaddddddddhhhtttttt Joe Rogan’s endorsement is the worst. Kinda despise that guy.
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Post by punker1212 on Feb 1, 2020 13:36:20 GMT -6
I’m gonna be completely honest. Bernie behaves as much as a petulant child as trump when things aren’t going his way. From my perspective and only mine All I see is him trying to out yell everyone else and making sure everyone else is at a kiddie table. And when he/his campaign gets called on the bullshit they pay lip service to an apology. He makes me very very angry. Also liberal judges Iran/Iraq etc. none of that matters if we don’t do something about McConnell and if you can’t compromise and be willing to let others take credit even if it was your damn bill. That’s all fine and I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind there. As stated above for the sake of not retyping that. And definitely working on the Senate is incredibly important!
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Post by punker1212 on Feb 1, 2020 13:36:43 GMT -6
I’m going to play with my kids.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Feb 1, 2020 13:39:20 GMT -6
jaygee I love you more than my luggage and it's possible that I misread you but I don't think all of those who sat out 2016 or voted 3rd party did so bc of misogyny or antiestablishment sentiment. There were people rightfully put off by certain parts of her background (superpredators immediately jumps to mind) or really disillusioned after Obama spending 8 years trying to fix the country but, for a number of reasons, a lot of people not seeing things really improve for them and theirs. I'm not coming at you over your never Bernie stance, I just felt the need to offer this other side of the 2016 situation Yes, I oversimplified it. But it is my view that what happened can be largely pinned on those two factors. We will never fully know because I can’t look into the hearts and minds of each voter and determine if they truly get like Hillary was a harm to Black people or if they used that as a easy way to avoid saying “I don’t want a woman to be president”. Just the same way that voters this cycle said “Kamala’s a cop” and I doubt all of the people spouting that off would say that about a white man with the same exact record. Also, with Russia and who knows else sowing disinformation around every turn, it’s hard to know what is going on these days. Ugh. That sounds depressing but you know what I mean. What I do know is that a lot of reasons given for not voting for HRC in 2016 1) didn’t pass the smell test 2) wouldn’t have been a thing for a male candidate and/or 3) were flat out lies.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Feb 1, 2020 13:42:24 GMT -6
And I’ll add that I’m aware that’s not the entirety of his campaign but for people who only catch snippets or who aren’t as plugged in It’s not an easy feat to overcome that image.
His campaign is all about his ideal society and less about his merits.
On the flip side you could point to Klobuchar who has written/passed numerous bills or Warren who started an entire federal agency designed to protect people from predatory practices.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Feb 1, 2020 13:47:30 GMT -6
You’re right - they didn’t. They done fucked up 2020 too. And I’m at my wit’s end. But here’s the thing. I’m ride or die Dems. So I’m going to help fix it. I’m not jumping ship to some third party or bashing the “establishment”. I’m going use my vote, my wallet, my time and energy to build and sustain the Democratic Party I want to see. Because it’s my business. Sanders doesn’t give a shit about the Dems or destroying the party because he comes and goes as it pleases him. If he was such a strong candidate he would run as a damn independent and do the thing. But he can’t, he knows he can’t, so here we are. To your other point. I know the consequences and I don’t find Bernie to be the savior. I don’t trust him to make the right moves or to have the political capital or skills to even get the right things done. That’s where we just have to agree to disagree. But I just want to say - you need to respect that some voters are going to vet him and not support him. Vet him on his actual factual record. This isn’t do I want to go have a beer with him stuff. I don’t “not like” him. I do not think he is qualified to be the president of the United States. Many people felt that way about candidates I supported. There is a difference between a low information voter hoping on a protest vote bandwagon and an engaged voter vetting a candidate and saying he or she is not for me. Your statement that “you need to respect” where other voters are feels accusatory and hostile to me. I acknowledge I’m a very sensitive person so maybe you didn’t mean it that way. It’s how I received it. I’m also not a low information voter and hope you weren’t insinuating that? I also believe strongly that these voters should be welcomed into the process and supported, not belittled. As I said, I’m not trying to change your mind. I’m trying to understand it. I am of the opinion that this collective mindset is akin to Never Hillary and cries for party unity and the blame game of who cost whom the election are invalid. And, I came here for some space to work out my feelings about this. Please consider that my cohort has been blamed for costing Hillary the 2016 election, so to hear those same voters shouting these same cries that Bernie supporters shouted but still being discredited is in the least disappointing. I’m sorry that I hurt your feelings. That is not my intention. My words were blunt so I could see how they could land that way. When I said “you need to respect” it was out of frustration that I feel like you keep saying it’s because I don’t like Sanders or don’t understand what is on the line. And I’m just trying to convey that I do understand and I don’t think he’s the man for the job. So much so that I don’t want to vote for him. I don’t agree with Warren on a lot and have many beefs with her but she hasn’t crossed that line where I wouldn’t vote for her yet. No, I don’t think you are a low information voter. I brought that into the conversation to contrast the conversation we are having here between two informed, engaged people and what we might have out in the wild where someone just doesn’t like a candidate because of some dumb reason like hair or voice or what have you. I guess the best way I can explain my position is that the decision on who to vote for is a personal calculation based on numerous factors. So no, I would not gladly be lumped in with the Never Hillary crew that voted for Jill Stein in a swing state because that’s not what I’m doing. You made me reconsider my word choices - I will no longer say my vote doesn’t matter. It does matter. It doesn’t factor into who wins the election because of my particular circumstances but it does matter in the way I decide it matters. Which to me would be to communicate to the DNC my discontent. Again, I’m sorry for being harsh and not being clear in my intent. We are both passionate about our positions and want to be heard.
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richard
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Post by richard on Feb 1, 2020 13:53:08 GMT -6
I’m gonna be completely honest. Bernie behaves as much as a petulant child as trump when things aren’t going his way. From my perspective and only mine All I see is him trying to out yell everyone else and making sure everyone else is at a kiddie table. And when he/his campaign gets called on the bullshit they pay lip service to an apology. He makes me very very angry. Also liberal judges Iran/Iraq etc. none of that matters if we don’t do something about McConnell and if you can’t compromise and be willing to let others take credit even if it was your damn bill. This is an argument for not voting for him in the primaries. I don't think that's what we're talking about at the moment though.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Feb 1, 2020 14:00:33 GMT -6
Also, not to extend this but just to clarify...I do think a couple of issues are being conflated here. There are calls for unity in the party. However, that’s not high on my priority list. Unity is all good and well when it happens organically but I’m not a open the tent up to the masses and cuddle up just anyone type. I’m fine with some disagreement and some mess. We aren’t going to unify everyone. And it’s kind of what’s wrong with the GOP - they fall in line when they shouldn’t. Push back and disagreement is good to me, especially in a primary. Someone calls themselves a dem but they are racist, naw that isn’t working for me. This is just in general - not a 2020 or a Bernie thing. Just my way - I’m not going to embrace one and all. I have my opinion on what the dem platform should be and I’m going to align with those closest to that. I’m not saying I’m right but just saying that’s how I view the process.
So just to clarify, I personally am not calling for party unity on one hand and saying never Bernie on the other. Maybe others are but I’m pretty comfortable with where I land from a logical perspective.
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Post by dc2london on Feb 1, 2020 14:02:40 GMT -6
jaygee I love you more than my luggage and it's possible that I misread you but I don't think all of those who sat out 2016 or voted 3rd party did so bc of misogyny or antiestablishment sentiment. There were people rightfully put off by certain parts of her background (superpredators immediately jumps to mind) or really disillusioned after Obama spending 8 years trying to fix the country but, for a number of reasons, a lot of people not seeing things really improve for them and theirs. I'm not coming at you over your never Bernie stance, I just felt the need to offer this other side of the 2016 situation Yes, I oversimplified it. But it is my view that what happened can be largely pinned on those two factors. We will never fully know because I can’t look into the hearts and minds of each voter and determine if they truly get like Hillary was a harm to Black people or if they used that as a easy way to avoid saying “I don’t want a woman to be president”. Just the same way that voters this cycle said “Kamala’s a cop” and I doubt all of the people spouting that off would say that about a white man with the same exact record. Also, with Russia and who knows else sowing disinformation around every turn, it’s hard to know what is going on these days. Ugh. That sounds depressing but you know what I mean. What I do know is that a lot of reasons given for not voting for HRC in 2016 1) didn’t pass the smell test 2) wouldn’t have been a thing for a male candidate and/or 3) were flat out lies. I hear you. I share your frustrations.
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