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Post by greykitty on Jan 13, 2020 20:20:05 GMT -6
Also greykitty as much as it bothers me, you are right that TONS of people have been doing the "Can a woman win?" nonsense since way before even the 2008 primary. They did the, "Can a black man named Barack Obama win" nonsense then, and they're doing, "Can a woman win" in 2016 and 2020. I hate it from pundits, but I have heard so many women say it themselves. It's not that they don't think a woman can nail the job, it's the fear that America isn't ready to set our systemic racism and sexism aside. And what, exactly, would make anyone think we are ready? I don't know what Bernie said to Liz. I would hope he would be encouraging to the junior Senator from Massachusetts in anything she does. That's what bothers me about the above. It's not having doubts that a woman could win that's bothersome to me, it's sharing those thoughts with a woman who wants to throw her hat in the ring. That makes it something else entirely imho. Again, to me, assuming things have been reported correctly (big if there), it's one political pro speaking to another political pro in private. IMO, it's one thing to be encouraging, it's another to basically mask your real political insights in that sort of conversation. Up to the other person to take that insight and weigh it in their own political calculus. |
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Post by greykitty on Jan 13, 2020 20:32:04 GMT -6
Meh - Bernie Sanders wouldn't be the only one, lay person or political pro, who doubted, or still doubts, a woman, no matter how qualified, could win in 2020. Being realistic isn't being evil, IMO. I do think Warren is trying to go after Sanders. IMO, her lane is narrowing daily and I don't see Biden, Pete, Bloomberg, or Yang voters suddenly leaping to her. Transparency - I would dislike seeing either of them as the party's candidate. I spoke with a rabble rousing compatriot today who was hardcore Liz all along but found her refusal to just say, "Yes, M4A will raise taxes" to be disingenuous and off-putting. Thos person said she felt she had no choice but to shift her support to Bernie. She isn't wowed, but she wants M4A and a GND and sees Bernie as the only avenue. She was a white woman from New England, former teacher, probably early to mid 60's. It was a really interesting conversation. I suspect my policy preferences are far from your compatriot's, but I also found Warren's refusal to say M4A will raise taxes idiotic and trying to have her cake and eat it too. That's the point I'll always give Sanders - he never fibbed about that. I think Warren was hoping she'd attract voters who just can't bring themselves to eagerly vote for Sanders but still like fairly far left policies. I don't know - I see her losing votes from both sides. |
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Post by Dr. Cox on Jan 13, 2020 20:33:10 GMT -6
I spoke with a rabble rousing compatriot today who was hardcore Liz all along but found her refusal to just say, "Yes, M4A will raise taxes" to be disingenuous and off-putting. Thos person said she felt she had no choice but to shift her support to Bernie. She isn't wowed, but she wants M4A and a GND and sees Bernie as the only avenue. She was a white woman from New England, former teacher, probably early to mid 60's. It was a really interesting conversation. Wow that really is interesting! I’m always intrigued by what people’s “single issues” are. Like how the pro- life voters are all in on that one thing. This is my mom. We don’t speak a whole lot around election time. |
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Post by elle on Jan 13, 2020 20:35:36 GMT -6
That's what bothers me about the above. It's not having doubts that a woman could win that's bothersome to me, it's sharing those thoughts with a woman who wants to throw her hat in the ring. That makes it something else entirely imho. Again, to me, assuming things have been reported correctly (big if there), it's one political pro speaking to another political pro in private. IMO, it's one thing to be encouraging, it's another to basically mask your real political insights in that sort of conversation. Up to the other person to take that insight and weigh it in their own political calculus. I agree to an extent, but this didn't happen in a vacuum. Bernie has a problematic history in regards to listening to women and supporting women and women's issues. Plus a woman did get more votes last go 'round, and saying that a woman couldn't win ignores that entirely. |
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Post by Rebel on Jan 13, 2020 20:36:13 GMT -6
I do worry about Warren as a candidate because the rich are terrified of her and would have so much money and power at hand to tank her campaign in any way possible. Interestingly I hadn’t considered that. My concerns were more that she is so well loved by liberal Dems that she ends up polarizing and leaves out swing voters. I just don’t think we can rely on swing voters. And I don’t think we should pick a nominee based on them. Personally I’d like to pick a nominee that best represents the democratic base and then work to GOTV. Get people excited, get them seeing the possibilities and how this president and their policies would directly, positively effect their lives, show how Trump will negatively affect their lives and get the Dems out to vote. But as I showed in the post right before this one, I’m an idealist lol. Maybe we won’t get swing voters with Liz. Or Bernie. Maybe we get swing voters with Biden but lose people due to gaffes and his history. Maybe we get swing voters with Pete but lose POC. We can’t predict this stuff. |
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Post by dc2london on Jan 13, 2020 20:36:40 GMT -6
DYING.
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Post by punker1212 on Jan 13, 2020 20:37:52 GMT -6
Wow that really is interesting! I’m always intrigued by what people’s “single issues” are. Like how the pro- life voters are all in on that one thing. This is my mom. We don’t speak a whole lot around election time. My brother put it this way: would I still vote for Bernie e if he were pro life? If I loved everything about him except that one thing could I do it? I can’t imagine over looking all of Trumps horrifying baggage, but it gave me a little mire ... empathy, maybe? For that demographic. |
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Post by dc2london on Jan 13, 2020 20:39:21 GMT -6
I spoke with a rabble rousing compatriot today who was hardcore Liz all along but found her refusal to just say, "Yes, M4A will raise taxes" to be disingenuous and off-putting. Thos person said she felt she had no choice but to shift her support to Bernie. She isn't wowed, but she wants M4A and a GND and sees Bernie as the only avenue. She was a white woman from New England, former teacher, probably early to mid 60's. It was a really interesting conversation. I suspect my policy preferences are far from your compatriot's, but I also found Warren's refusal to say M4A will raise taxes idiotic and trying to have her cake and eat it too. That's the point I'll always give Sanders - he never fibbed about that. I think Warren was hoping she'd attract voters who just can't bring themselves to eagerly vote for Sanders but still like fairly far left policies. I don't know - I see her losing votes from both sides. I agree with you entirely. I thought it was a huge miscalculation. But this was the first Warren --> Sanders voter I had personally spoken with and I found it very interesting. I feel like many of the people I speak with are either very undecided, or so baked in they are immovable. I told thos woman that I really respected her continuing evaluation of the candidates. |
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Post by Dr. Cox on Jan 13, 2020 20:39:50 GMT -6
Conservative-leaning swing voters are not going to vote for any of the front runners. Maybe Biden. But I wouldn’t worry about them anyway because they’ll most likely just vote 3rd party candidate like they did in 2016. As far as true centrist swing voters, I don’t believe they really exist in this current political climate.
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Post by punker1212 on Jan 13, 2020 20:40:20 GMT -6
Interestingly I hadn’t considered that. My concerns were more that she is so well loved by liberal Dems that she ends up polarizing and leaves out swing voters. I just don’t think we can rely on swing voters. And I don’t think we should pick a nominee based on them. Personally I’d like to pick a nominee that best represents the democratic base and then work to GOTV. Get people excited, get them seeing the possibilities and how this president and their policies would directly, positively effect their lives, show how Trump will negatively affect their lives and get the Dems out to vote. But as I showed in the post right before this one, I’m an idealist lol. Maybe we won’t get swing voters with Liz. Or Bernie. Maybe we get swing voters with Biden but lose people due to gaffes and his history. Maybe we get swing voters with Pete but lose POC. We can’t predict this stuff. I don’t know, part of me thinks this is what polling is for but then I remember barely anyone predicted the giant Trump upset of 2016 so who knows! |
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Post by dc2london on Jan 13, 2020 20:40:30 GMT -6
Wow that really is interesting! I’m always intrigued by what people’s “single issues” are. Like how the pro- life voters are all in on that one thing. This is my mom. We don’t speak a whole lot around election time. My mum and I always say that we are single issue voters, and our single issue is human and civil rights |
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Post by punker1212 on Jan 13, 2020 20:43:25 GMT -6
Conservative-leaning swing voters are not going to vote for any of the front runners. Maybe Biden. But I wouldn’t worry about them anyway because they’ll most likely just vote 3rd party candidate like they did in 2016. As far as true centrist swing voters, I don’t believe they really exist in this current political climate. But what about that illogical block of Bernie voters who swung for trump? Policy wise that made no damn sense but the electorate isn’t exactly known for making well informed choices rooted in policy. They’re gut voters, whether the like or trust a candidate. |
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Post by starbuck on Jan 13, 2020 20:44:22 GMT -6
Conservative-leaning swing voters are not going to vote for any of the front runners. Maybe Biden. But I wouldn’t worry about them anyway because they’ll most likely just vote 3rd party candidate like they did in 2016. As far as true centrist swing voters, I don’t believe they really exist in this current political climate. But what about that illogical block of Bernie voters who swung for trump? Policy wise that made no damn sense but the electorate isn’t exactly known for making well informed choices rooted in policy. They’re gut voters, whether the like or trust a candidate. Aggrieved bros are not known for logic, tho. |
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Post by punker1212 on Jan 13, 2020 20:45:10 GMT -6
This is my mom. We don’t speak a whole lot around election time. My mum and I always say that we are single issue voters, and our single issue is human and civil rights If I had to pick a single issue I think it would be climate change, but that doesn’t really fit. If tomorrow trump tweeted his sudden embrace of climate change and his plans to address I wouldn’t suddenly be all in on him. |
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Post by dc2london on Jan 13, 2020 20:46:51 GMT -6
This is my mom. We don’t speak a whole lot around election time. My brother put it this way: would I still vote for Bernie e if he were pro life? If I loved everything about him except that one thing could I do it? I can’t imagine over looking all of Trumps horrifying baggage, but it gave me a little mire ... empathy, maybe? For that demographic. For me, this one is easy, bc Trump has enacted policies that would literally take food out of the mouths of poor children and families. If you're pro-life, you're pro-life, and that means you strive to keep every human being on this planet safe and healthy and alive. Trump isn't pro-life. He is anti-bodily-autonomy. At best, he is pro-foetus. He is not pro-life. |
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Post by Dr. Cox on Jan 13, 2020 20:48:21 GMT -6
Conservative-leaning swing voters are not going to vote for any of the front runners. Maybe Biden. But I wouldn’t worry about them anyway because they’ll most likely just vote 3rd party candidate like they did in 2016. As far as true centrist swing voters, I don’t believe they really exist in this current political climate. But what about that illogical block of Bernie voters who swung for trump? Policy wise that made no damn sense but the electorate isn’t exactly known for making well informed choices rooted in policy. They’re gut voters, whether the like or trust a candidate. They weren’t really swing voters though IMO. More Bernie or bust cultists who were going to “shake up the system”. Hopefully they learned their lesson in the past several years, but if not, nothing is going to change them now. I mean, you can vote for Trump or you can vote for the Dem candidate. At this point, with all of the absolute shit that had transpired during this administration, if you’re still pretending to be on the fence, you’re not going to vote for a Dem anyway. I believe the strategy needs to be lighting a fire under the Dems and making sure we all band together and GOTV. |
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Post by dc2london on Jan 13, 2020 20:48:53 GMT -6
Conservative-leaning swing voters are not going to vote for any of the front runners. Maybe Biden. But I wouldn’t worry about them anyway because they’ll most likely just vote 3rd party candidate like they did in 2016. As far as true centrist swing voters, I don’t believe they really exist in this current political climate. But what about that illogical block of Bernie voters who swung for trump? Policy wise that made no damn sense but the electorate isn’t exactly known for making well informed choices rooted in policy. They’re gut voters, whether the like or trust a candidate. Please to see my upthread diatribe about grievance |
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Post by Rebel on Jan 13, 2020 20:48:57 GMT -6
I cannot get behind choosing a candidate because that person is the only one who white, young, middle/upper class Bernie Bros will vote for. Lol
I know that’s not what is being suggested. But we cannot select a candidate because we MIGHT get swing voters. Hillary was seen as the “safe choice” in 2016, and here we are.
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Post by Dr. Cox on Jan 13, 2020 20:51:48 GMT -6
Basically, I think we should not be wasting time, money, and resources on potential swing voters and independents. Let’s elect a candidate that we can rally behind and make sure every single dem votes in 2020.
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Post by Rebel on Jan 13, 2020 20:53:56 GMT -6
DC- I’m with you. I consider myself a single issue voter- who is going to support and enact policies that better the lives of the majority.
Pretty much everything can be viewed from that lens. Healthcare. Women’s rights. Taxes. Climate change.
I have voted against my own personal interests before because it benefits the majority. I don’t WANT to pay more taxes, but I recognize that I am privileged and need to do my part to contribute.
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Post by punker1212 on Jan 13, 2020 20:53:58 GMT -6
Someone please talk to me about Bernie bros. They don’t seem to exist where I am and honestly much of my life is spent shuffling around in a minivan. They’re real? You’ve encountered them in the wild? Paint me a picture.
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Post by dc2london on Jan 13, 2020 20:55:38 GMT -6
My mum and I always say that we are single issue voters, and our single issue is human and civil rights If I had to pick a single issue I think it would be climate change, but that doesn’t really fit. If tomorrow trump tweeted his sudden embrace of climate change and his plans to address I wouldn’t suddenly be all in on him. You're making my point for me  Climate change is a human rights issue. So is asylum. And clean air, and water. And marriage equality. And affordable, high quality healthcare. And public education. And freedom from gun violence. It's all human rights  |
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Post by punker1212 on Jan 13, 2020 20:56:56 GMT -6
My brother put it this way: would I still vote for Bernie e if he were pro life? If I loved everything about him except that one thing could I do it? I can’t imagine over looking all of Trumps horrifying baggage, but it gave me a little mire ... empathy, maybe? For that demographic. For me, this one is easy, bc Trump has enacted policies that would literally take food out of the mouths of poor children and families. If you're pro-life, you're pro-life, and that means you strive to keep every human being on this planet safe and healthy and alive. Trump isn't pro-life. He is anti-bodily-autonomy. At best, he is pro-foetus. He is not pro-life. Ugh I agree but many who vote “pro life” are fine with those very anti life policies. I do have a friend who is a catholic democrat who is pro life but votes dem and supports family friendly policies. They exist! |
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Post by Dr. Cox on Jan 13, 2020 20:57:34 GMT -6
Oh I agree with you, dc2london, about being a single issue human rights voter. My mom will only vote for candidates who vehemently oppose Roe vs Wade |
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Post by dc2london on Jan 13, 2020 20:58:42 GMT -6
DC- I’m with you. I consider myself a single issue voter- who is going to support and enact policies that better the lives of the majority. Pretty much everything can be viewed from that lens. Healthcare. Women’s rights. Taxes. Climate change. I have voted against my own personal interests before because it benefits the majority. I don’t WANT to pay more taxes, but I recognize that I am privileged and need to do my part to contribute. Girl, yes. |
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Post by dc2london on Jan 13, 2020 21:00:10 GMT -6
Someone please talk to me about Bernie bros. They don’t seem to exist where I am and honestly much of my life is spent shuffling around in a minivan. They’re real? You’ve encountered them in the wild? Paint me a picture. They seem to exist chiefly on social media |
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Post by Rebel on Jan 13, 2020 21:00:24 GMT -6
punker1212- I’m so burned by polling data from 2016, I’m not sure I’ll ever be able to trust it again. I mean. I held a small viewing party in 2016 for results. It was a unexpectedly quiet and sad affair. lol
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Post by Rebel on Jan 13, 2020 21:01:00 GMT -6
DC- I’m with you. I consider myself a single issue voter- who is going to support and enact policies that better the lives of the majority. Pretty much everything can be viewed from that lens. Healthcare. Women’s rights. Taxes. Climate change. I have voted against my own personal interests before because it benefits the majority. I don’t WANT to pay more taxes, but I recognize that I am privileged and need to do my part to contribute. Girl, yes. You put it much more eloquently. You vote for human rights. I’m stealing that, thanksssssssss |
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Post by Rebel on Jan 13, 2020 21:01:21 GMT -6
Someone please talk to me about Bernie bros. They don’t seem to exist where I am and honestly much of my life is spent shuffling around in a minivan. They’re real? You’ve encountered them in the wild? Paint me a picture. They seem to exist chiefly on social media And on college campuses. |
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Post by punker1212 on Jan 13, 2020 21:02:26 GMT -6
Someone please talk to me about Bernie bros. They don’t seem to exist where I am and honestly much of my life is spent shuffling around in a minivan. They’re real? You’ve encountered them in the wild? Paint me a picture. They seem to exist chiefly on social media So trolls? Or man children that need to get out of their parents basement? Or old dudes missing the good old days? |
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