|
2020
Jul 3, 2020 18:39:36 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by grumpycakes on Jul 3, 2020 18:39:36 GMT -6
mapleme, shout out to the CD Board Bookclub circa 2015 where we read The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks. ::buffs nails on collar:;
|
|
|
2020
Jul 3, 2020 18:44:48 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by grumpycakes on Jul 3, 2020 18:44:48 GMT -6
stringy I also feel very un-patriotic. And I am certainly not imparting any blind patriotism on my kids for the 4th (or any other time). I really want to make sure I supplement whatever history they learn in school. Right? I feel like a homeschooler who wants to undermine evolution education. I’m all “You’ll learn more than buckles on hats at Thanksgiving!! Let’s talk about smallpox!”
|
|
stringy
Opal
Posts: 8,306 Likes: 22,157
|
Post by stringy on Jul 3, 2020 18:45:01 GMT -6
stringy I also feel very un-patriotic. And I am certainly not imparting any blind patriotism on my kids for the 4th (or any other time). I really want to make sure I supplement whatever history they learn in school. Go a step further and demand your district to do better!
|
|
milano
Emerald
Posts: 10,914 Likes: 36,993
|
Post by milano on Jul 3, 2020 18:46:55 GMT -6
stringy I also feel very un-patriotic. And I am certainly not imparting any blind patriotism on my kids for the 4th (or any other time). I really want to make sure I supplement whatever history they learn in school. Yup I am very much here too. We drove past a bunch of flags the other day (clearly up for the holiday) and J asked why those people liked flags so much and I was like "uh...because they do". I was just not in the mood to try try to explain the 4th of July while feeling so very un-patriotic about it. I want to supplement as well, I remain amazed at all the historical things I never learned about in school. So, so. so many important things.
|
|
|
Post by charlotte on Jul 3, 2020 18:47:50 GMT -6
stringy I also feel very un-patriotic. And I am certainly not imparting any blind patriotism on my kids for the 4th (or any other time). I really want to make sure I supplement whatever history they learn in school. Go a step further and demand your district to do better! Yes, I should! Once he actually starts K 😆 A few years ago here our district had a big thing (maybe lawsuit?) because of all of the proselytizing at school. Sooo... I feel I’m really in for it.
|
|
mc13
Sapphire
Posts: 3,414 Likes: 12,121
|
2020
Jul 3, 2020 18:54:27 GMT -6
Post by mc13 on Jul 3, 2020 18:54:27 GMT -6
2020 was set to be our year of more adventures and while we did get our one big trip under our belts before the pandemic shut down the world, we're making more homegrown adventures. Our girls have really grown closer, play much nicer, and for the most part really enjoy being home with T and I all.the.time. We've also reevaluated our entire lives these last few months. We went from seeing ourselves living here forever to putting our house on the market to move closer to family, have a lower cost of living, and as a result, hopefully be able to save more money for future adventures. So my one thing to take away from this year is making tough choices to be able to afford our family more flexibility/financial freedom in the future.
|
|
snowmoon
Sapphire
Posts: 3,998 Likes: 9,593
|
Post by snowmoon on Jul 3, 2020 20:58:53 GMT -6
It is literally blowing my mind that you think people who owned, exploited, abused and killed an entire group of people, didn’t know that what they were doing was immoral.
|
|
mapleme
Amethyst
Posts: 6,065 Likes: 16,081
|
Post by mapleme on Jul 4, 2020 2:23:04 GMT -6
So much of modern medicine was built on the boudies of Black people with no choice on the matter. Especially women. J Marion Sims is considered “the father of modern gynecology” and he pioneered his methods, with no anesthesia, on slaves. Then took them to white women, with anesthesia. This is a mere 70 years ago, but a profound example of how much of science has view Black bodies as expendable. Henrietta Lacks died of severe cervical cancer at age 31 and was treated reprehensibly during her “treatment.” But her doctor took samples of her cervix and HeLa cels have been used for the last 70 years for almost every study that requires human cell replication, because her cells don’t die, like most human cells do. Her family had no idea until a reporter decided to write a book about these remarkable cells. While you might personally not support white supremacy, it’s important to recognize what your views are making space for. Are they making space for Black people to thrive or for white supremacists to thrive? You say that BLM has lost its vision, but how are they “supposed” to protest? Because nothing is deemed acceptable by the people in the power position. Protest is supposed to shake your beliefs and make you reconsider the norm. You misunderstood me. I meant the protestors have lost their vision. What does a statue of a person that lived 100 years ago have to do with police brutality today? Have they achieved police reform so quickly? I'm not convinced that removing the statues was so critically urgent to saving black lives that they could not have them properly removed or relocated or have the area modified to represent all people (whichever was appropriate for the individual statue/location). Do these protestors destroying public property or BLM truly represent the population they claim to or is that like saying the Klan represents white Americans? I don't know. I just wonder. I googled the Dr in question. I'd never heard of him until today. Even still my point is that slavery and the Holocaust are not equivalent. One cannot use the experiences of the Jews and others who endured the concentration camps as an analogy to the experiences of the slaves. They are too different. The Nazis knew what they were doing was not just amoral and unethical but indescribably worse and they did it anyway. American slave owners and others of their times were taught their actions were moral and ethical. I did not misunderstand. How are the protesters supposed to protest? What would be an acceptable way to get white people to pay attention to what they and their ancestors have had to endure for generations? Toppling the statues that glorify their oppression is proving to be pretty darn effective. Sitting patiently at the back of city hall meetings won’t garner the same attention. But that is also happening because that is why most statues are being removed by the cities themselves (all over the globe). That’s also why police departments are being defunded across the country. You can’t achieve that without attending a few un-sexy city hall meetings. But if all that you are seeing of these protests is what people are doing in the streets, you are clearly only paying attention to news sources (or individuals) that want to continue the oppression. And I am appalled at the comparison of BLM to the klan. The klan, for generations, has murdered and terrorized Black Americans. BLM is asking for their lives to have value to those in power. So yeah, I’m sure that BLM represents the views of a higher percentage of Black people than the klan represents for white people. No one is saying that the Holocaust and US slavery were the same. Really, the better comparison would be the Holocaust to the slave trade, where 12.5 million Africans were kidnapped from their homes, stacked like cordwood into boats (for millions to die en route), to be sold to the highest bidder in the Americas. And then there was an additional 400 years of forced labor, murder, rape and kidnapping. But a game of “compare the human atrocities” isn’t exactly useful or kind. You can clearly see the atrocity of one, folks we’re hoping that you could also see the atrocity of the other and it’s ongoing effect on our living fellow Americans today. The perceived “morality” of slavery to white slave holders is not even close to the point of any of this. If you didn’t know about J Marion Sims, what else don’t you know? Do you know about the first bombs dropped from planes onto US soil? Or redlining? Or that the USDA has admitted to refusing to give loans or access to Black farmers (why else would only 2% of rural land belong to black farmers - when farming is what most former slaves were “trained” in at the end of slavery)? Maybe this is a really good opportunity to learn about what people are actually yelling about in the streets.
|
|
|
Post by charlotte on Jul 4, 2020 6:34:58 GMT -6
Pip, I think you were the first person to compare Slavery in America to the Holocaust when you mentioned Auschwitz being kept as a memorial to the murdered Jews.
The reason that toppling statues symbolic of black oppression has anything to do with BLM is because police brutality towards black people, lack of justice for black victims, the school-to-prison pipeline, medical & health disparities, generational poverty... all of these things are related. They are all a product of the systemic racism that is baked into the core of our society. In order to fix any of these problems, we must address the way our society views and values our black members. In every way. Continuing to glorify white oppressors is not it.
I think the notion that black people can simply ask nicely and the powers that be will happily relocate statues or something is misguided. It’s in line with the white washing of American history, tbh. Black people haven’t been given anything that they haven’t fought tooth and nail for.
It seems like there’s this idea that white slave owners were good & moral people. I know there was a mention above that plantations were white people’s homes, etc. I’m sorry but rape, abuse, and slavery.. nope. They weren’t good people.
Lastly, comparing BLM to the KKK is... very offensive.
|
|
mapleme
Amethyst
Posts: 6,065 Likes: 16,081
|
Post by mapleme on Jul 4, 2020 6:44:14 GMT -6
|
|
|
2020
Jul 4, 2020 6:45:53 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by grumpycakes on Jul 4, 2020 6:45:53 GMT -6
And just in case anyone reading this thinks the Klan isn’t active anymore, my husband got a frantic phone call from one of his black travelers who had recently moved to work on a temporary assignment. She had to quit the job without notice because she woke up to a giant burning cross in her front yard. And DH’s boss (white dude) was irritated that he didn’t talk her into staying on the job. Like, absolutely no acknowledgement or worry about her life being threatened by the KKK. Just wanted the money. This happened within the last few years. It’s terrifying.
DH coordinates travel assignments all over the US for a living and he’s often having conversations with his BIPOC and LGBTQ travelers about how safe certain areas are for them. It’s disgusting that it’s still such a worry.
|
|
|
2020
Jul 4, 2020 6:54:49 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by grumpycakes on Jul 4, 2020 6:54:49 GMT -6
Pip, I think you were the first person to compare Slavery in America to the Holocaust when you mentioned Auschwitz being kept as a memorial to the murdered Jews. You what’s really interesting? She’s not. When you google, you get all kinds of comparisons of slavery to the Holocaust. There are a lot of similarities. And what’s more interesting is I think most of us white people get that awful gut turning feeling when we think about the Holocaust because we’ve been taught the atrocities, but not necessary with slavery. The details of slavery are so vague to us because they’ve been swept under the rug. We’ve been taught about beautiful plantations and benevolent masters. But that’s not the real story and you don’t find it unless you do your own digging.
|
|
milano
Emerald
Posts: 10,914 Likes: 36,993
|
Post by milano on Jul 4, 2020 7:44:35 GMT -6
Pip, I think you were the first person to compare Slavery in America to the Holocaust when you mentioned Auschwitz being kept as a memorial to the murdered Jews. You what’s really interesting? She’s not. When you google, you get all kinds of comparisons of slavery to the Holocaust. There are a lot of similarities. And what’s more interesting is I think most of us white people get that awful gut turning feeling when we think about the Holocaust because we’ve been taught the atrocities, but not necessary with slavery. The details of slavery are so vague to us because they’ve been swept under the rug. We’ve been taught about beautiful plantations and benevolent masters. But that’s not the real story and you don’t find it unless you do your own digging. I think this is so accurate. I remember when I first started reading about the actual factual details of slavery and just feeling so sick. It was this hot, nauseated, emotional feeling. I still get it when I learn more horrifying facts. And then wondering why I was well into my 20s before learning all this. Meanwhile I have known the atrocities of the Holocaust for as long as I can remember.
|
|
|
2020
Jul 4, 2020 9:44:18 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by grumpycakes on Jul 4, 2020 9:44:18 GMT -6
You what’s really interesting? She’s not. When you google, you get all kinds of comparisons of slavery to the Holocaust. There are a lot of similarities. And what’s more interesting is I think most of us white people get that awful gut turning feeling when we think about the Holocaust because we’ve been taught the atrocities, but not necessary with slavery. The details of slavery are so vague to us because they’ve been swept under the rug. We’ve been taught about beautiful plantations and benevolent masters. But that’s not the real story and you don’t find it unless you do your own digging. I think this is so accurate. I remember when I first started reading about the actual factual details of slavery and just feeling so sick. It was this hot, nauseated, emotional feeling. I still get it when I learn more horrifying facts. And then wondering why I was well into my 20s before learning all this. Meanwhile I have known the atrocities of the Holocaust for as long as I can remember. And it’s so in line with the American plot line, right? Like look at those OTHERS. They were monsters. We stepped in and made things right. Oh slavery? That ol’ thing? Why we haven’t done that in YEARS. ::Lifts rug, sweeps::
|
|
Speedy
Sapphire
Posts: 4,613 Likes: 8,575
|
2020
Jul 4, 2020 9:48:52 GMT -6
Post by Speedy on Jul 4, 2020 9:48:52 GMT -6
I was trying to explain to MH how weird it is to me to just be learning this stuff now. When I was in HS in Florida, for American history my teacher was a very proud former military black man. He liked to go off on tangents and even still, I never learned about any of it. And then he tried to tell me that Canada was better about teaching their history. I was like "uh huh, and what did you learn about residential schools?"
|
|
|
2020
Jul 4, 2020 9:52:38 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by grumpycakes on Jul 4, 2020 9:52:38 GMT -6
It is literally blowing my mind that you think people who owned, exploited, abused and killed an entire group of people, didn’t know that what they were doing was immoral. I’ll defend @pipandme to say that whenever a group of people is being kept down, the people who are either the abusers or complicit in the abuse are always fed a boatload of propaganda to get them to cooperate. Usually along the lines of these people are “other,” they’re sub-human, childlike, manipulative, whatever. Sure there are people who are introspective and know it’s wrong, but a lot of people don’t think too hard when everyone else is doing it and society is telling them it’s fine.
|
|
mapleme
Amethyst
Posts: 6,065 Likes: 16,081
|
Post by mapleme on Jul 4, 2020 10:36:57 GMT -6
I have had a question nagging in my brain for the better part of 2020. Y'all have answered it. You can all keep judging 19th century and older people by 20th and 21st century standards if you want. I have nothing more to say on this topic. Ok. I mean a lot has changed in the past 155 years. I’d like to think that our views on Black people and slave holders have too.
|
|
tj
Moderator
Posts: 9,912 Likes: 24,842
|
2020
Jul 4, 2020 11:33:40 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by tj on Jul 4, 2020 11:33:40 GMT -6
I had no judgment this whole convo. And was appreciating hearing different takes and more information.
But very long wooooow to saying fuck y’all I’m old and refuse to try to be better. I mean. What in the actual fuck.
|
|
mapleme
Amethyst
Posts: 6,065 Likes: 16,081
|
Post by mapleme on Jul 4, 2020 11:39:39 GMT -6
I had no judgment this whole convo. And was appreciating hearing different takes and more information. But very long wooooow to saying fuck y’all I’m old and refuse to try to be better. I mean. What in the actual fuck. I don’t think that’s what she meant. She means that we’re supposed not judge 1800s people with 2020 beliefs. So, “know better but idolize the same old shit.”
|
|
tj
Moderator
Posts: 9,912 Likes: 24,842
|
2020
Jul 4, 2020 16:39:14 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by tj on Jul 4, 2020 16:39:14 GMT -6
I had no judgment this whole convo. And was appreciating hearing different takes and more information. But very long wooooow to saying fuck y’all I’m old and refuse to try to be better. I mean. What in the actual fuck. I don’t think that’s what she meant. She means that we’re supposed not judge 1800s people with 2020 beliefs. So, “know better but idolize the same old shit.” lol. Ok. That makes a little more sense. I’m not good at math.
|
|
|
2020
Jul 6, 2020 7:02:22 GMT -6
Post by Dramaphile on Jul 6, 2020 7:02:22 GMT -6
It is literally blowing my mind that you think people who owned, exploited, abused and killed an entire group of people, didn’t know that what they were doing was immoral. I’ll defend @pipandme to say that whenever a group of people is being kept down, the people who are either the abusers or complicit in the abuse are always fed a boatload of propaganda to get them to cooperate. Usually along the lines of these people are “other,” they’re sub-human, childlike, manipulative, whatever. Sure there are people who are introspective and know it’s wrong, but a lot of people don’t think too hard when everyone else is doing it and society is telling them it’s fine. There were whole lines of science dedicated to proving that black people were subhuman, could not feel pain, were a different species of human, etc etc etc. It doesn't forgive the sins of those who perpetrated slavery, but for many people on the outside of it, there were lots of excuses fed to them so they could justify its existence. Same reason why "illegal immigrants" are vilified by the Right as being criminals trying to infiltrate our country, so our society can justify putting children in cages. (and many many other terrible things that have been allowed to happen in our world)
|
|
mapleme
Amethyst
Posts: 6,065 Likes: 16,081
|
2020
Jul 6, 2020 7:30:22 GMT -6
Post by mapleme on Jul 6, 2020 7:30:22 GMT -6
I'm pretty confident that Pip isn't reading this anymore, but I saw this really great video about confederate statues and why they don't mean what many people think that they mean. (I can't seem to find it on youtube, only FB, so I'm sorry for those that don't have FB). Trae Crowder is really great in general, so I highly recommend watching his other pieces too.
|
|
mapleme
Amethyst
Posts: 6,065 Likes: 16,081
|
2020
Jul 6, 2020 7:31:01 GMT -6
Post by mapleme on Jul 6, 2020 7:31:01 GMT -6
Oh! That embedded! Did it embed for non-FB people too?
|
|
snowmoon
Sapphire
Posts: 3,998 Likes: 9,593
|
Post by snowmoon on Jul 6, 2020 8:59:20 GMT -6
I’ll defend @pipandme to say that whenever a group of people is being kept down, the people who are either the abusers or complicit in the abuse are always fed a boatload of propaganda to get them to cooperate. Usually along the lines of these people are “other,” they’re sub-human, childlike, manipulative, whatever. Sure there are people who are introspective and know it’s wrong, but a lot of people don’t think too hard when everyone else is doing it and society is telling them it’s fine. There were whole lines of science dedicated to proving that black people were subhuman, could not feel pain, were a different species of human, etc etc etc. It doesn't forgive the sins of those who perpetrated slavery, but for many people on the outside of it, there were lots of excuses fed to them so they could justify its existence. Same reason why "illegal immigrants" are vilified by the Right as being criminals trying to infiltrate our country, so our society can justify putting children in cages. (and many many other terrible things that have been allowed to happen in our world) Thanks Dramaphile and grumpycakes for explaining further.
|
|
snowmoon
Sapphire
Posts: 3,998 Likes: 9,593
|
Post by snowmoon on Jul 6, 2020 9:05:18 GMT -6
I was trying to explain to MH how weird it is to me to just be learning this stuff now. When I was in HS in Florida, for American history my teacher was a very proud former military black man. He liked to go off on tangents and even still, I never learned about any of it. And then he tried to tell me that Canada was better about teaching their history. I was like "uh huh, and what did you learn about residential schools?" I don’t remember learning anything about residential schools in elementary or high school history. I had one teacher that talked briefly about the history of the RCMP but didn’t go in depth because it wasn’t a part of the curriculum. I had know idea how recent it was until I was in high school and had friends who lived on reserve who had parents that had been through the residential school system.
|
|
tj
Moderator
Posts: 9,912 Likes: 24,842
|
2020
Jul 6, 2020 9:12:36 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by tj on Jul 6, 2020 9:12:36 GMT -6
Oh! That embedded! Did it embed for non-FB people too? It did! And it was so good! You are right, that fella is bomb and I would watch every video he makes. So educational but not the least bit boring.
|
|
mapleme
Amethyst
Posts: 6,065 Likes: 16,081
|
2020
Jul 6, 2020 10:00:10 GMT -6
Post by mapleme on Jul 6, 2020 10:00:10 GMT -6
Oh! That embedded! Did it embed for non-FB people too? It did! And it was so good! You are right, that fella is bomb and I would watch every video he makes. So educational but not the least bit boring. There are many things that I like about that video, but especially the idea that there are many, many things for the South to be proud of that don't include hate and violence. I wish that people would celebrate those things and a hopeful path forward, rather than fixating on a manufactured "gloried" past that doesn't exist.
|
|
Speedy
Sapphire
Posts: 4,613 Likes: 8,575
|
Post by Speedy on Jul 6, 2020 12:48:51 GMT -6
I was trying to explain to MH how weird it is to me to just be learning this stuff now. When I was in HS in Florida, for American history my teacher was a very proud former military black man. He liked to go off on tangents and even still, I never learned about any of it. And then he tried to tell me that Canada was better about teaching their history. I was like "uh huh, and what did you learn about residential schools?" I don’t remember learning anything about residential schools in elementary or high school history. I had one teacher that talked briefly about the history of the RCMP but didn’t go in depth because it wasn’t a part of the curriculum. I had know idea how recent it was until I was in high school and had friends who lived on reserve who had parents that had been through the residential school system. I've been learning more about it recently. I have a few friends who are Mi'kmaq and I worked with a woman who was Metis and they share(d) a lot of information.
|
|
mapleme
Amethyst
Posts: 6,065 Likes: 16,081
|
2020
Jul 7, 2020 7:45:53 GMT -6
Post by mapleme on Jul 7, 2020 7:45:53 GMT -6
mapleme I'm still here, sort of. I just had to STFU and go think. Something said in the course of a few different conversations bugged me. I discovered a while back that the story of Columbus I had been taught in school was nothing more than a blatant lie based on a fiction story. The story I was taught was that the ignorant European population all believed the world was flat and Columbus wanted to prove the Earth was round. That's it! That was the sole reason he sailed East. I never gave much thought to if there were any other lies in the history I was taught until a few days ago. Based on A Different Mirror (which I am no where near being done with reading) I was taught a fair number of lies as historical "fact". My brain is still reeling from reading about the extent of Thomas Jefferson's hypocrisy. There's also a whole lot that I never learned - like what Grant's presidency, the whole story of the Trail of Tears, and more. To answer a question - I don't recommend taking people from history out of the context of their times. I also don't think we could walk in the shoes of the people in history and do better than they did. To the bolded, I actually agree. However, I think that you and I have different perspectives of what that means. A once-dear friend of mine once told me that "you have to accept people where they are." He was speaking about friendships, but I feel like it applies just about everywhere. Too often we want people to be different and get frustrated because they aren't. "That person would be so great, only if..." And that helps no one. In this context, I think that it's important to recognize these people for who they were. A founding father who fought for our country's freedom while subjecting generations of their countrymen to the cruelest lack of freedom (for example). When you look at that person with 2020 beliefs, they become a complex human who needs to be taught in complex terms. Like the founding fathers who didn't own slaves, but made the choice to not challenge their peers in slave ownership so that they could retain their loyalty. In the same way I have to explain context to my children when reading the Little House on the Prairie books (views on Native Americans, blackface and rape culture that exist in the book, but give reason for conversation rather than reason for dismissal). But to simply idolize these complex humans and literally put them on a pedestal, instead of putting them in a book and giving them the context that they deserve, does a disservice to both the human in question and the humans who lost their freedoms at that person's hands. Also, did you watch the video? Confederate statues are not historical artifacts. They are racist modern additions literally intended to flaunt hatred in the faces of the oppressed. All keeping the statues does is continue the idolization of racism and hatred. If you want to retain historical artifacts to teach the history of civil war and slavery, you should keep bunkers, uniforms, slave plantations, and slave trade boats and teach them for what they were. Representation of the horrors inflicted on the ancestors of our friends and peers. Not build new monuments to the people who lost a war. When, as a white person, you stop seeing Black people as "other" and start seeing them as "us" the generational horrors that they have endured seem a lot less glorious.
|
|
tj
Moderator
Posts: 9,912 Likes: 24,842
|
2020
Jul 7, 2020 7:52:41 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by tj on Jul 7, 2020 7:52:41 GMT -6
I’m having a hard time reading the tone and understanding whether you are realizing that history might not have been what was portrayed to us. That’s what I thought you were saying. And if so, then major kudos to you for choosing to do some research, be more informed, and make your own real decisions based off of real facts.
It still seems like you are hesitant to want to change how you feel. And I get that change is hard. Especially if you feel like you’ve been lied to (and bc you have been - general YOU meaning all of us.) I’m proud of you for doing that and then coming back to let us know. That’s awesome.
|
|