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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2018 21:28:53 GMT -6
Maybe. Hard to say. Certainly a Nick Kyrgios is scrutinized differently than a Grigor Dimitrov for example - he has the fines and suspensions to prove it. Because women are permitted limited on court coaching on the regular WTA tour events but not the Slams, he may have been more tuned in to the coaches’ actions than usual. The ATP tour does not permit it at any tournament and to my knowledge Carlos primarily umpires for the ATP tour. He called the code in the second game of the second set. Not at a critical point by any stretch. As a stand alone call it would have no impact on the score. I’ll wager that in hindsight he probably wishes he had spoken to Serena at the changeover when he first noticed it. this is why I was cringing at the on and on and her coach to say he wad coaching. I was like oof Oh yeah. Cue Patrick Mouratoglou getting his pink slip in 3,2,1... lol I give him credit for being truthful but it does catch Serena in an inconsistency.
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Post by flamingo on Sept 11, 2018 6:52:49 GMT -6
@lamp do you think her history of how she treats officials during tournaments could have been why he started off with giving her a warning for something that is usually more of an off-the-record type of warning? I wondered this, too. This is hardly her first blow-up, maybe he viewed it as a preemptive strike. I also wondered if she would have continued to press the issue if she'd won the first set and was cruising in the 2nd? She was not playing her best. I think that the fact that she was 'behind' probably affected her reaction somewhat.
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Cher
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Post by Cher on Sept 11, 2018 7:18:27 GMT -6
I don’t know shit about tennis so I can’t speak on that. I do know that a lot of the public commentary on this would have been completely different if she was a man and/or white.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2018 7:34:28 GMT -6
I don’t know shit about tennis so I can’t speak on that. I do know that a lot of the public commentary on this would have been completely different if she was a man and/or white. If it had been Nick Kyrgios hé’d have been defaulted and suspended for 6 months.
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Cher
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Post by Cher on Sept 11, 2018 7:35:38 GMT -6
I don’t know shit about tennis so I can’t speak on that. I do know that a lot of the public commentary on this would have been completely different if she was a man and/or white. If it had been Nick Kyrgios hé’d have been defaulted and suspended for 6 months. Public commentary not tennis rules. She says again.
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Post by GhoatMonket on Sept 11, 2018 7:57:06 GMT -6
If it had been Nick Kyrgios hé’d have been defaulted and suspended for 6 months. Public commentary not tennis rules. She says again. Are you talking about morons on twitter that should have their phones taken away?
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Ls2012
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Post by Ls2012 on Sept 11, 2018 8:03:06 GMT -6
I don’t know shit about tennis so I can’t speak on that. I do know that a lot of the public commentary on this would have been completely different if she was a man and/or white. If it had been Nick Kyrgios hé’d have been defaulted and suspended for 6 months. But Kyrgios is known for on-court hysterics. And frankly, comparisons to McEnroe are misguided. McEnroe was always over-the-top. You have to go by her contemporaries. If this were Nadal, it would not have gone down like this and he is no stranger to confrontation.
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Cher
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Post by Cher on Sept 11, 2018 8:09:36 GMT -6
Public commentary not tennis rules. She says again. Are you talking about morons on twitter that should have their phones taken away? No. I’m talking about the media bias. NYPost called it “the mother of all meltdowns.” The Mark Knight cartoon. She is being portrayed as a hysterical woman. The angry black woman. I think the way a white athlete would have been portrayed, if they lost their cool at a match at the highest level, would have been different.
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Post by GhoatMonket on Sept 11, 2018 8:20:42 GMT -6
Are you talking about morons on twitter that should have their phones taken away? No. I’m talking about the media bias. NYPost called it “the mother of all meltdowns.” The Mark Knight cartoon. She is being portrayed as a hysterical woman. The angry black woman. I think the way a white athlete would have been portrayed, if they lost their cool at a match at the highest level, would have been different. Is the media public commentary? I consider those two separate things. Most public commentary that I have seen have been openly critical of how she was treated and pointing at her sex and race as the reasons why that happened. I agree that the media would have painted a different picture had she been white and/or male.
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Cher
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Post by Cher on Sept 11, 2018 8:28:39 GMT -6
No. I’m talking about the media bias. NYPost called it “the mother of all meltdowns.” The Mark Knight cartoon. She is being portrayed as a hysterical woman. The angry black woman. I think the way a white athlete would have been portrayed, if they lost their cool at a match at the highest level, would have been different. Is the media public commentary? I consider those two separate things. Most public commentary that I have seen have been openly critical of how she was treated and pointing at her sex and race as the reasons why that happened. I agree that the media would have painted a different picture had she been white and/or male. I used “public commentary” to separate from tennis commentary. Because again, I don’t know shit about tennis.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2018 8:44:18 GMT -6
Is the media public commentary? I consider those two separate things. Most public commentary that I have seen have been openly critical of how she was treated and pointing at her sex and race as the reasons why that happened. I agree that the media would have painted a different picture had she been white and/or male. I used “public commentary” to separate from tennis commentary. Because again, I don’t know shit about tennis. but we need to pick apart your use of the term public commentary some more.
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Cher
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Post by Cher on Sept 11, 2018 8:48:47 GMT -6
I used “public commentary” to separate from tennis commentary. Because again, I don’t know shit about tennis. but we need to pick apart your use of the term public commentary some more. The babysitter is coming at 11:30. Let me get some snacks. I got time.
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stringy
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Post by stringy on Sept 11, 2018 8:55:43 GMT -6
I got in a heated discussion with my dad about this yesterday (avid tennis player and fan for decades). His theory was that Serena did it on purpose in an effort to rattle her opponent and gain some control/momentum in the match. Maybe not the whole thing, but that she decided to carry on and on instead of focusing herself and let it go. Aka yes, had she won the first set, she may have acted differently. he is not a serena fan.
I did manage to call him out in some pretty sexist assumptions in some of his statements.
Then my mom interjected with the fact that maybe the ump was sexist and/or racist AND Serena was out of line. Both are possible.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2018 9:10:51 GMT -6
The cartoon is indefensible and they guy has doubled down on it. It’s disgusting.
« The mother of all meltdowns » I kind of get. Meltdown is used commonly to describe on court antics and seems (in my extensive reading of tennis specific articles) to be applied equally to players on both tours.
Serena and the media has made a big deal of her returning to the tour after becoming a mother herself. It’s everywhere. Serena also invoked motherhood in her complaint to the chair umpire as a reason why she wouldn’t cheat. So, yeah. I can see why a writer would use that particular phrase.
(Meltdown) (Meltdown) (Meltdown) (Meltdown)
All white guys on the ATP tour described as having a Meltdown.
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Cher
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Post by Cher on Sept 11, 2018 9:37:11 GMT -6
Lamp, you get tennis. I think that’s great, I don’t. Maybe she was out of line at the Open. My understanding is her integrity was called into play at a match on the highest level and she responded. I don’t know if the punishment fit the crime. Because I don’t get tennis.
I do get media coverage of public figures. I will 100% tell you Serena is covered differently than her white counterparts. Finding a YouTube video with “meltdown” in the title is in no way equatable. Acting like a writer from the NYP chose his words wisely is pretty amusing, when they’re the biggest trolls in the game.
Btw, that was just one example. Here’s some other words used to describe Serena at the Open:
“Furious rant” “Hysterical” “Emotional” “Shocking tirade” “Outburst”
And that’s only the things said from the recent match. Let’s not even get into the racist vile that has been spewed at her and her sister over the years. Serena has been covered differently. Always has and always will. But if you want to google every blog post about every white tennis player to show they have it hard too, have at it. Like I said, I got time.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2018 9:54:10 GMT -6
The YouTube links were the fastest and easiest things to grab to demonstrate that ‘meltdown’ is commonly used and used to describe on court behaviour. It’s not just used to describe behaviour on the WTA or Serena.
Obviously I’m not suggesting that anyone earning a living playing tennis has it hard. I mean, come on.
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bazi
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Post by bazi on Sept 11, 2018 10:00:24 GMT -6
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rvasc
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Post by rvasc on Sept 11, 2018 10:57:40 GMT -6
It is maybe becoming more democratic, but... it’s not there. That was your only takeaway from that entire article. smh The first sentence under the headline is: “Just because the guys might be able to get away with it doesn’t mean it’s acceptable.” Which, fine, ok. So the takeaway isn’t that a black woman was treated differently, it’s that the rules really should be applied to everyone. That doesn’t take away from what happened. A black woman was treated differently. The rules were enforced on her in a grand slam after her return from maternity leave when they haven’t been enforced in other people. If a school had a history of enforcing a dress code more forcefully with black girls, then the problem would be that it needs to be enforced equally on everyone? Sure. It’s ALSO true that enforcing it unequally reinforces racism and continues to support systemic and structural racism. Would there also be people talking about how the attitudes of the girls play into the enforcement of the rules? Yes. And they would be having the WRONG conversation. Talking about how the rule just needs to apply to everyone is so much easier than having the harder conversation about power/race/sex.
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rvasc
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Post by rvasc on Sept 11, 2018 10:59:55 GMT -6
Plus also it’s ok for women (and men and non binary folks) to get angry when they encounter structural racism and sexism and to be loud about it. It is not wrong to get pissed off and emotional when that happens. You do not have to make yourself polite and tone down your anger just because it makes people uncomfortable.
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Post by GhoatMonket on Sept 11, 2018 11:02:47 GMT -6
I got in a heated discussion with my dad about this yesterday (avid tennis player and fan for decades). His theory was that Serena did it on purpose in an effort to rattle her opponent and gain some control/momentum in the match. Maybe not the whole thing, but that she decided to carry on and on instead of focusing herself and let it go. Aka yes, had she won the first set, she may have acted differently. he is not a serena fan. I did manage to call him out in some pretty sexist assumptions in some of his statements. Then my mom interjected with the fact that maybe the ump was sexist and/or racist AND Serena was out of line. Both are possible.For whatever reason, this point seems to be getting lost. Obviously those making sexist/racist comments are far more out of line and that is a much bigger issue in the grand scheme of things, but as far as the match goes, she was out of line. She knows the rules. And that in no way gives permission to the media to portray her in the way that some have.
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bazi
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Post by bazi on Sept 11, 2018 11:04:15 GMT -6
Plus also it’s ok for women (and men and non binary folks) to get angry when they encounter structural racism and sexism and to be loud about it. It is not wrong to get pissed off and emotional when that happens. You do not have to make yourself polite and tone down your anger just because it makes people uncomfortable. There’s just so much of the commentary (not the overtly racist/sexist shit), but the “this wasn’t the time to bring it up” narrative that has this underlying tone of “know your place”. It’s fucked.
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rvasc
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Post by rvasc on Sept 11, 2018 11:11:32 GMT -6
I got in a heated discussion with my dad about this yesterday (avid tennis player and fan for decades). His theory was that Serena did it on purpose in an effort to rattle her opponent and gain some control/momentum in the match. Maybe not the whole thing, but that she decided to carry on and on instead of focusing herself and let it go. Aka yes, had she won the first set, she may have acted differently. he is not a serena fan. I did manage to call him out in some pretty sexist assumptions in some of his statements. Then my mom interjected with the fact that maybe the ump was sexist and/or racist AND Serena was out of line. Both are possible. So then, what is the appropriate response when one is a victim of racism and sexism on a live international stage?
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Post by GhoatMonket on Sept 11, 2018 11:16:58 GMT -6
I got in a heated discussion with my dad about this yesterday (avid tennis player and fan for decades). His theory was that Serena did it on purpose in an effort to rattle her opponent and gain some control/momentum in the match. Maybe not the whole thing, but that she decided to carry on and on instead of focusing herself and let it go. Aka yes, had she won the first set, she may have acted differently. he is not a serena fan. I did manage to call him out in some pretty sexist assumptions in some of his statements. Then my mom interjected with the fact that maybe the ump was sexist and/or racist AND Serena was out of line. Both are possible. So then, what is the appropriate response when one is a victim of racism and sexism on a live international stage? Why are you so positive that is what happened? Are there articles about the official in question showing that he has that bias? Are you assuming all males are sexist? The stuff with the media- yes, absolutely happening.
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stringy
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Post by stringy on Sept 11, 2018 11:22:53 GMT -6
I got in a heated discussion with my dad about this yesterday (avid tennis player and fan for decades). His theory was that Serena did it on purpose in an effort to rattle her opponent and gain some control/momentum in the match. Maybe not the whole thing, but that she decided to carry on and on instead of focusing herself and let it go. Aka yes, had she won the first set, she may have acted differently. he is not a serena fan. I did manage to call him out in some pretty sexist assumptions in some of his statements. Then my mom interjected with the fact that maybe the ump was sexist and/or racist AND Serena was out of line. Both are possible. So then, what is the appropriate response when one is a victim of racism and sexism on a live international stage? I don't have an easy answer. Was she having a "tennis" argument at first, and then moved on to defending herself from discrimination as the whole thing escalated? I am not of the "this isn't the place" opinion. If that was her full on argument, then go for it. But if she was still focused on winning a tennis match, then she was out of line and knew it. Doesn't mean she could control it. Tennis is a mindf*ck of a sport. I've smashed my racket and been penalized for it in college - but its damn hard to not do it again. Its really hard to piece the intentions behind what happened apart
The cartoon and backlash are over the line, and I hope people within the sport and elsewhere continue to speak out against it. I'd fully support an official review of rules and code violations and their enforcement- especially for this ump, as it seems it was pretty darn easy to find lots of instances where players go off on him.
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rvasc
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Post by rvasc on Sept 11, 2018 11:23:43 GMT -6
So then, what is the appropriate response when one is a victim of racism and sexism on a live international stage? Why are you so positive that is what happened? Are there articles about the official in question showing that he has that bias? Are you assuming all males are sexist? The stuff with the media- yes, absolutely happening. He has never penalized another player a game in a grand slam final, even when they broke racquets, yelled at him, name called, etc.
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rvasc
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Post by rvasc on Sept 11, 2018 11:27:12 GMT -6
So then, what is the appropriate response when one is a victim of racism and sexism on a live international stage? I don't have an easy answer. Was she having a "tennis" argument at first, and then moved on to defending herself from discrimination as the whole thing escalated? I am not of the "this isn't the place" opinion. If that was her full on argument, then go for it. But if she was still focused on winning a tennis match, then she was out of line and knew it. Doesn't mean she could control it. Tennis is a mindf*ck of a sport. I've smashed my racket and been penalized for it in college - but its damn hard to not do it again. Its really hard to piece the intentions behind what happened apart
The cartoon and backlash are over the line, and I hope people within the sport and elsewhere continue to speak out against it. I'd fully support an official review of rules and code violations and their enforcement- especially for this ump, as it seems it was pretty darn easy to find lots of instances where players go off on him.
I mean, she was not going to win that match after the game penalty. MH has also broken rackets. He also hits himself in the head with it. 😂
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stringy
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Post by stringy on Sept 11, 2018 11:28:29 GMT -6
I don't have an easy answer. Was she having a "tennis" argument at first, and then moved on to defending herself from discrimination as the whole thing escalated? I am not of the "this isn't the place" opinion. If that was her full on argument, then go for it. But if she was still focused on winning a tennis match, then she was out of line and knew it. Doesn't mean she could control it. Tennis is a mindf*ck of a sport. I've smashed my racket and been penalized for it in college - but its damn hard to not do it again. Its really hard to piece the intentions behind what happened apart
The cartoon and backlash are over the line, and I hope people within the sport and elsewhere continue to speak out against it. I'd fully support an official review of rules and code violations and their enforcement- especially for this ump, as it seems it was pretty darn easy to find lots of instances where players go off on him.
I mean, she was not going to win that match after the game penalty. MH has also broken rackets. He also hits himself in the head with it. 😂 I used to hit it against my sneakers when trying not to smash it. From a clay court habit. Except when I'd miss and hit the ball of my ankle. I wasn't too bright.
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Cher
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Post by Cher on Sept 11, 2018 11:34:17 GMT -6
The YouTube links were the fastest and easiest things to grab to demonstrate that ‘meltdown’ is commonly used and used to describe on court behaviour. It’s not just used to describe behaviour on the WTA or Serena. Obviously I’m not suggesting that anyone earning a living playing tennis has it hard. I mean, come on. I don’t think you’re understanding me.
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Post by GhoatMonket on Sept 11, 2018 11:48:04 GMT -6
Why are you so positive that is what happened? Are there articles about the official in question showing that he has that bias? Are you assuming all males are sexist? The stuff with the media- yes, absolutely happening. He has never penalized another player a game in a grand slam final, even when they broke racquets, yelled at him, name called, etc. He has absolutely penalized players for all the things you described. If they had multiple penalties, it would have wound up there for them. They get a warning, then lose a point, then lose the match, then forfeit. Some (in the tennis community) have said that he didn't handle the coaching call or the final call as well as he should have, however the calls were in line with the rules and he has called those penalties on others before.
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rvasc
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Post by rvasc on Sept 11, 2018 11:51:39 GMT -6
He has never penalized another player a game in a grand slam final, even when they broke racquets, yelled at him, name called, etc. He has absolutely penalized players for all the things you described. If they had multiple penalties, it would have wound up there for them. They get a warning, then lose a point, then lose the match, then forfeit. Some (in the tennis community) have said that he didn't handle the coaching call or the final call as well as he should have, however the calls were in line with the rules and he has called those penalties on others before. He has stopped giving code violations at grand slams every single time before it came to giving a game penalty. Even when Rafael Nadal was screaming at him. I understand he gives code violations. The fact remains that he has never let the violations get to a game penalty in a grand slam. But we can agree to disagree.
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