gimmeaQ
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Post by gimmeaQ on Sept 10, 2018 9:47:02 GMT -6
There's also been some emerging evidence lately that Serena gets drug screened with greater frequency than other players. It's more than just this one event. this is fairly consistent with what I have seen, though this is now several years ago... in my experience, the "more muscular" or "more mature looking for their age" (i.e. black) athletes get "randomly selected" more often than white athletes. it was gross. ETA: DISCLAIMER: I worked in team sports. I do not know how testing works for individual sports like tennis. |
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Sept 10, 2018 9:48:10 GMT -6
There's also been some emerging evidence lately that Serena gets drug screened with greater frequency than other players. It's more than just this one event. So? Target testing is standard in most international sports. The better you are, the more you get tested. She's tested way more often than the other top females, tho. Like up to 5x as often. To me, that seems like a big discrepancy. I'm not hugely into sports so if that doesn't seem like a big gap to you, ok. But for me it's striking. |
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Sept 10, 2018 9:49:23 GMT -6
So? Target testing is standard in most international sports. The better you are, the more you get tested. She's tested way more often than the other top females, tho. Like up to 5x as often. To me, that seems like a big discrepancy. I'm not hugely into sports so if that doesn't seem like a big gap to you, ok. But for me it's striking. Expounding on this, it's far more than the top men as well. |
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Post by GhoatMonket on Sept 10, 2018 9:55:17 GMT -6
So? Target testing is standard in most international sports. The better you are, the more you get tested. She's tested way more often than the other top females, tho. Like up to 5x as often. To me, that seems like a big discrepancy. I'm not hugely into sports so if that doesn't seem like a big gap to you, ok. But for me it's striking. It's really not. Her ability and build make her a easy pick. I can introduce you to men and women tested far more often than she is. One had to do one during a pregnancy. She's claiming drug tests are random. No they aren't. They do not random test- they target test based on performance and athlete build. She checks both columns. That is her claim. Stats show she is incorrect. There are multiple men that have been tested as many times as she has been this year. |
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Post by GhoatMonket on Sept 10, 2018 9:55:43 GMT -6
She's tested way more often than the other top females, tho. Like up to 5x as often. To me, that seems like a big discrepancy. I'm not hugely into sports so if that doesn't seem like a big gap to you, ok. But for me it's striking. Expounding on this, it's far more than the top men as well. No. Unless you know how to look up test results (I just did), she's way off base. |
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Sept 10, 2018 9:58:09 GMT -6
Expounding on this, it's far more than the top men as well. No. Unless you know how to look up test results (I just did), she's way off base. I mean WaPo and others are reporting it's more often? But if you have a resource to look it up and it's even by USTA ok. |
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McBenny
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Post by McBenny on Sept 10, 2018 9:58:20 GMT -6
I also cringed when she said he would never be on her side line again or something to that effect but she has said that before to someone else so. and that umpire specifically has had that same thing said to him by male players (in the Twitter thread linked above). I'm not saying it's not a little OTT. but he reacted differently to her saying it than Rafa Nadal. I don't care who says it, I would cringe. It comes off entitled to me. I did also note she has said it before to someone else and no issues, I think I read it was in 2016. |
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McBenny
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Post by McBenny on Sept 10, 2018 10:00:00 GMT -6
She's tested way more often than the other top females, tho. Like up to 5x as often. To me, that seems like a big discrepancy. I'm not hugely into sports so if that doesn't seem like a big gap to you, ok. But for me it's striking. It's really not. Her ability and build make her a easy pick. I can introduce you to men and women tested far more often than she is. One had to do one during a pregnancy. She's claiming drug tests are random. No they aren't. They do not random test- they target test based on performance and athlete build. She checks both columns. That is her claim. Stats show she is incorrect. There are multiple men that have been tested as many times as she has been this year. this has been my experience as well with people in sports. If you are top in your sport and outperform you will get tested more.
It is known I thought.
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McBenny
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Post by McBenny on Sept 10, 2018 10:02:03 GMT -6
I got a little uncomfortable when she started saying "I'm a mother" as if that was a universal blanket for never doing anything bad. Again, why I can't articulate all of my feelings on this. I feel awful for Osaka. I didn't like that either. I am consistently against using the whole parent thing in the workplace. I am not sure how to explain my thoughts. |
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Post by GhoatMonket on Sept 10, 2018 10:02:59 GMT -6
No. Unless you know how to look up test results (I just did), she's way off base. I mean WaPo and others are reporting it's more often? But if you have a resource to look it up and it's even by USTA ok. All of their reports are off her claim, not actual data from the testing organization. Most of the women (that you have never heard of most likely) have been tested 2 or 3 times this year. She's at 5. There are multiple men at 5. Last year her sister had the same number of tests (3). Several people had more than that, some twice as many. Claiming 5 times as many when it's one test for a relative unknown vs 5 for a well known top performer is ridiculous. That would be like my friend screaming that she has been tested 7 times more often that I have been tested this year (which is 1 test vs 7 in case you are interested). She's better than I am. Of course she is tested more. |
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McBenny
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Post by McBenny on Sept 10, 2018 10:04:43 GMT -6
Also bringing up the testing is moot for me cause it had nothing to do with the match we are talking about IMO.
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Post by whoopster on Sept 10, 2018 10:10:06 GMT -6
McBenny, I'm just going to +1 everything you're saying
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Sept 10, 2018 10:11:31 GMT -6
I mean WaPo and others are reporting it's more often? But if you have a resource to look it up and it's even by USTA ok. All of their reports are off her claim, not actual data from the testing organization. Most of the women (that you have never heard of most likely) have been tested 2 or 3 times this year. She's at 5. There are multiple men at 5. Last year her sister had the same number of tests (3). Several people had more than that, some twice as many. Claiming 5 times as many when it's one test for a relative unknown vs 5 for a well known top performer is ridiculous. That would be like my friend screaming that she has been tested 7 times more often that I have been tested this year (which is 1 test vs 7 in case you are interested). She's better than I am. Of course she is tested more. She's been out there talking about it, yes. But the original claim was made in a Deadspin article that cited testing numbers. It's not just her making a baseless claim that's being repeated. McBenny I think it's relevant because it speaks to the larger issue of how USTA and other tennis organizations treat her. |
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Post by GhoatMonket on Sept 10, 2018 10:13:18 GMT -6
Also bringing up the testing is moot for me cause it had nothing to do with the match we are talking about IMO. Yes. This particular umpire has been accused of trying to steal the spotlight and make himself the focal point. And he managed to do that in exquisite fashion in this match. He's done it before, and with similar inconsistencies between players for the same actions. So is it sexist? Possibly. Was is based on race? Possibly. Was it based on nationality? Possibly. Was it the actions of a self centered ass that can't play and wanted his fame on the big stage? Possibly. |
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Post by GhoatMonket on Sept 10, 2018 10:19:17 GMT -6
All of their reports are off her claim, not actual data from the testing organization. Most of the women (that you have never heard of most likely) have been tested 2 or 3 times this year. She's at 5. There are multiple men at 5. Last year her sister had the same number of tests (3). Several people had more than that, some twice as many. Claiming 5 times as many when it's one test for a relative unknown vs 5 for a well known top performer is ridiculous. That would be like my friend screaming that she has been tested 7 times more often that I have been tested this year (which is 1 test vs 7 in case you are interested). She's better than I am. Of course she is tested more. She's been out there talking about it, yes. But the original claim was made in a Deadspin article that cited testing numbers. It's not just her making a baseless claim that's being repeated. McBenny I think it's relevant because it speaks to the larger issue of how USTA and other tennis organizations treat her. And it mirrors everything I just explained to you and shows that you aren't listening to at all. You said yourself you know nothing about this. You literally have someone that does telling you that you (and the article writer and the athlete) are misinterpreting shit. She is far from the only person being tested more frequently than others. |
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Post by GhoatMonket on Sept 10, 2018 11:14:12 GMT -6
and that umpire specifically has had that same thing said to him by male players (in the Twitter thread linked above). I'm not saying it's not a little OTT. but he reacted differently to her saying it than Rafa Nadal. I don't care who says it, I would cringe. It comes off entitled to me. I did also note she has said it before to someone else and no issues, I think I read it was in 2016. It is. And she doesn't get that say anyway. Athletes don't get to choose which officials they get. They are officials that they may want to avoid, but they don't get to set up the work schedule and should not be allowed to have any influence on it. They were both out of line. I get her frustration given the officiating issues she has had in the past, but when the official shows their ass and seems intent on making himself (or herself) part of the match, you stop toeing the line and bitch about them after the match when they no longer have any control. The treatment between the actions of a male and female athlete is perceived differently. I won't attempt to tell you that it isn't because I've been on that end of it and have had to call people out on it. To me, this just doesn't feel like it has to do with that as much as people are making it out to be. |
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Ls2012
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Post by Ls2012 on Sept 10, 2018 15:04:59 GMT -6
The chair ump drew first blood and started an escalating chain of events that was entirely preventable- by him.
There's a reason they don't issue warnings or penalize for coaching, despite it being very common- it is incredibly difficult to prove the player on the court saw the coaching. They don't make that call unless it's blatant. This was not. In fact, if you watched the match and the tape afterward, it was very clear she wasn't even looking in his direction.
So he made a shit call, for whatever motivation, that was not just wrong but questioned her integrity.
Serena had every right to be pissed as hell. She had every right to suggest he owed her an apology. I dare anyone to get the criticism she gets regularly, walk in her shoes, and then get handed that flaming pile of crap during the Final, and not get worked up.
Docking her a game? Total dick move.
I feel so badly for Naomi Osaka in all this. She was robbed of what may have been the greatest moment of her career.
No professional athlete's career is guaranteed, and certainly not in womens tennis. The field is so much more competitive than the men's- the top seeds are always changing.
Naomi handled it as well as she could, but she's got to be devastated. She'll never truly know if she would have won without all that drama. And that's a shame because she was playing amazing tennis. But the shadow will forever be there. No one wants to win on those terms.
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ripper
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Post by ripper on Sept 10, 2018 15:16:49 GMT -6
Ls2012 - I agree with everything you've said. I'm also of the opinion that while Serena could have waited until the match was over to cause a stink, she is by no means required to. Sexism, racism, any-ism, waits for no one - so why should she have to wait for a more convenient time to address it? A lot of my anger and disgust is cumulative. I am pissed that she was told she can't wear the catsuit that had medical benefits. I am pissed that Alize Cornet was penalized for fixing her top - when players like Djokovic are allowed to hang out on the court with his shirt off. To anyone saying that Saturday's incident was just unfortunate for Serena and a direct result of her behavior, I say BULLSHIT.
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betches
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Post by betches on Sept 10, 2018 18:50:12 GMT -6
I can't adequately articulate my feelings on this I have been around some very very high level athletes, male and female, and male and female coaches/staff. There IS a different standard. Anyone who says otherwise is naive or misinformed. I think Naomi would have won regardless. This may be controversial, I don't know. It just didn't seem to be Serena's best day (and she is the best female tennis player ever, just to get that straight). Those days happen. They're difficult for athletes on many levels. But I don't know how anyone can look at the Twitter thread linked above and not realize that the umpire was acting like a buffoon who had to over power the best tennis player ever just because she's a woman. I think that Naomi would have won too and I feel for her that she is now not even going to be able to enjoy her win because everyone is doubting it. Yes to all of this. My heart broke for her when everyone was booing during the trophy ceremony, 20 year old me would have been devastated |
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rvasc
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Post by rvasc on Sept 10, 2018 19:00:05 GMT -6
I’m strongly staunchly team Serena. 🤷🏿♀️ Goooo offf sis. I’m here. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2018 20:07:04 GMT -6
I’ve played and followed tennis for 40 years. I watch a massive amount as well as travel to tournaments to watch live. Martina Navratilova wrote an OpEd for the NYT that pretty much sums up my thoughts on it. www.nytimes.com/2018/09/10/opinion/martina-navratilova-serena-williams-us-open.htmlThere is a great deal of cherry picking and misinformation floating around twitter and woven into articles from writers who rarely (if ever) cover sports in general let alone tennis specifically. I’ve read many times in the last couple of days for instance that McEnroe was only ever penalized points once in his career - absolutely untrue. Even in his thread McEnroe is brought up as being lauded for his on court actions in his heyday. Nope. He was booed and vilified as he got to the latter stages of his career when his temper got the better of him and he lashed out. Now, 25 years removed are his actions regarded with nostalgic fondness. Alize Cornet was not given a code violation for taking her shirt off. The code violation was for doing it on court and not at the chair. It’s an odd if not obscure rule but applied equally for men and women. And it didn’t cost Alize anything, she certainly wasn’t fined for it (as Serena asserted in her post match press conference). After smashing her racquet early in the second set to go down a break, Serena was assessed a point penalty. It was at this point that Serena had a decision to make. Further argue the code violation or put it behind her and get on with the business of playing he match. Right here is where I get stuck. Serena is a 20+ year veteran on the tour. She full well knew what was at stake and it is frankly insulting to Serena to say otherwise. She took her position knowing what the consequences would be not only to the score line but how the crowd in Arthur Ashe react. That’s a big damn crowd. It’s difficult to be critical of Serena and not be labelled racist (and now sexist) but she held more control over what happened on court than Twitter et al might lead you to believe. Her post match presser was a mix of insight and cringeworthy comments. Tennis is a great game and hands down the most lucrative pro sport for women to compete in. The men and women are awarded equal prize money at the Slams. Naomi earned exactly what Novak won the next day for lifting the trophy - $3.8M USD. Whatever comes of this event, I hope Naomi thrives in her career. She’s an exciting young player with a steady nerve. I look forward to watching her career grow. |
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rvasc
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Post by rvasc on Sept 10, 2018 20:20:02 GMT -6
I’ve played and followed tennis for 40 years. I watch a massive amount as well as travel to tournaments to watch live. Martina Navratilova wrote an OpEd for the NYT that pretty much sums up my thoughts on it. www.nytimes.com/2018/09/10/opinion/martina-navratilova-serena-williams-us-open.htmlThere is a great deal of cherry picking and misinformation floating around twitter and woven into articles from writers who rarely (if ever) cover sports in general let alone tennis specifically. I’ve read many times in the last couple of days for instance that McEnroe was only ever penalized points once in his career - absolutely untrue. Even in his thread McEnroe is brought up as being lauded for his on court actions in his heyday. Nope. He was booed and vilified as he got to the latter stages of his career when his temper got the better of him and he lashed out. Now, 25 years removed are his actions regarded with nostalgic fondness. Alize Cornet was not given a code violation for taking her shirt off. The code violation was for doing it on court and not at the chair. It’s an odd if not obscure rule but applied equally for men and women. And it didn’t cost Alize anything, she certainly wasn’t fined for it (as Serena asserted in her post match press conference). After smashing her racquet early in the second set to go down a break, Serena was assessed a point penalty. It was at this point that Serena had a decision to make. Further argue the code violation or put it behind her and get on with the business of playing he match. Right here is where I get stuck. Serena is a 20+ year veteran on the tour. She full well knew what was at stake and it is frankly insulting to Serena to say otherwise. She took her position knowing what the consequences would be not only to the score line but how the crowd in Arthur Ashe react. That’s a big damn crowd. It’s difficult to be critical of Serena and not be labelled racist (and now sexist) but she held more control over what happened on court than Twitter et al might lead you to believe. Her post match presser was a mix of insight and cringeworthy comments. Tennis is a great game and hands down the most lucrative pro sport for women to compete in. The men and women are awarded equal prize money at the Slams. Naomi earned exactly what Novak won the next day for lifting the trophy - $3.8M USD. Whatever comes of this event, I hope Naomi thrives in her career. She’s an exciting young player with a steady nerve. I look forward to watching her career grow. I’d like to see stats on calling coaching violations IN A GRAND SLAM FINAL. Also, I very much disagree with this paragraph near the end: “We do need to take a hard look at our sport, without any rose-colored glasses, and root out any inconsistencies and prejudices that might be there. Tennis is a very democratic sport, and we need to make sure it stays that way.” |
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Post by GhoatMonket on Sept 10, 2018 20:23:30 GMT -6
I’ve played and followed tennis for 40 years. I watch a massive amount as well as travel to tournaments to watch live. Martina Navratilova wrote an OpEd for the NYT that pretty much sums up my thoughts on it. www.nytimes.com/2018/09/10/opinion/martina-navratilova-serena-williams-us-open.htmlThere is a great deal of cherry picking and misinformation floating around twitter and woven into articles from writers who rarely (if ever) cover sports in general let alone tennis specifically. I’ve read many times in the last couple of days for instance that McEnroe was only ever penalized points once in his career - absolutely untrue. Even in his thread McEnroe is brought up as being lauded for his on court actions in his heyday. Nope. He was booed and vilified as he got to the latter stages of his career when his temper got the better of him and he lashed out. Now, 25 years removed are his actions regarded with nostalgic fondness. Alize Cornet was not given a code violation for taking her shirt off. The code violation was for doing it on court and not at the chair. It’s an odd if not obscure rule but applied equally for men and women. And it didn’t cost Alize anything, she certainly wasn’t fined for it (as Serena asserted in her post match press conference). After smashing her racquet early in the second set to go down a break, Serena was assessed a point penalty. It was at this point that Serena had a decision to make. Further argue the code violation or put it behind her and get on with the business of playing he match. Right here is where I get stuck. Serena is a 20+ year veteran on the tour. She full well knew what was at stake and it is frankly insulting to Serena to say otherwise. She took her position knowing what the consequences would be not only to the score line but how the crowd in Arthur Ashe react. That’s a big damn crowd. It’s difficult to be critical of Serena and not be labelled racist (and now sexist) but she held more control over what happened on court than Twitter et al might lead you to believe. Her post match presser was a mix of insight and cringeworthy comments. Tennis is a great game and hands down the most lucrative pro sport for women to compete in. The men and women are awarded equal prize money at the Slams. Naomi earned exactly what Novak won the next day for lifting the trophy - $3.8M USD. Whatever comes of this event, I hope Naomi thrives in her career. She’s an exciting young player with a steady nerve. I look forward to watching her career grow. I’d like to see stats on calling coaching violations IN A GRAND SLAM FINAL. Also, I very much disagree with this paragraph near the end: “We do need to take a hard look at our sport, without any rose-colored glasses, and root out any inconsistencies and prejudices that might be there. Tennis is a very democratic sport, and we need to make sure it stays that way.” You disagree with looking at things objectively? I...what? |
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rvasc
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Post by rvasc on Sept 10, 2018 20:27:47 GMT -6
I’d like to see stats on calling coaching violations IN A GRAND SLAM FINAL. Also, I very much disagree with this paragraph near the end: “We do need to take a hard look at our sport, without any rose-colored glasses, and root out any inconsistencies and prejudices that might be there. Tennis is a very democratic sport, and we need to make sure it stays that way.” You disagree with looking at things objectively? I...what? Tennis is not a democratic sport. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2018 20:29:37 GMT -6
She's tested way more often than the other top females, tho. Like up to 5x as often. To me, that seems like a big discrepancy. I'm not hugely into sports so if that doesn't seem like a big gap to you, ok. But for me it's striking. Expounding on this, it's far more than the top men as well. Here’s a perfect example of misinformation that floats around. Federer was asked about drug tests this summer after Serena’s remarks came out. Here’s a quote: “I’ve had a lot of testing last month,” .....“I think I’ve had seven tests. It’s been quite heavy. Also blood and urine. Two in Stuttgart (tournament), (and) in Halle (at the tournament) » |
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rvasc
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Post by rvasc on Sept 10, 2018 20:29:38 GMT -6
It is maybe becoming more democratic, but... it’s not there.
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Post by GhoatMonket on Sept 10, 2018 20:38:01 GMT -6
It is maybe becoming more democratic, but... it’s not there. That was your only takeaway from that entire article. smh |
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Post by GhoatMonket on Sept 10, 2018 20:44:10 GMT -6
@lamp do you think her history of how she treats officials during tournaments could have been why he started off with giving her a warning for something that is usually more of an off-the-record type of warning?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2018 21:02:41 GMT -6
@lamp do you think her history of how she treats officials during tournaments could have been why he started off with giving her a warning for something that is usually more of an off-the-record type of warning? Maybe. Hard to say. Certainly a Nick Kyrgios is scrutinized differently than a Grigor Dimitrov for example - he has the fines and suspensions to prove it. Because women are permitted limited on court coaching on the regular WTA tour events but not the Slams, he may have been more tuned in to the coaches’ actions than usual. The ATP tour does not permit it at any tournament and to my knowledge Carlos primarily umpires for the ATP tour. He called the code in the second game of the second set. Not at a critical point by any stretch. As a stand alone call it would have no impact on the score. I’ll wager that in hindsight he probably wishes he had spoken to Serena at the changeover when he first noticed it. |
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McBenny
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Post by McBenny on Sept 10, 2018 21:17:46 GMT -6
@lamp do you think her history of how she treats officials during tournaments could have been why he started off with giving her a warning for something that is usually more of an off-the-record type of warning? Maybe. Hard to say. Certainly a Nick Kyrgios is scrutinized differently than a Grigor Dimitrov for example - he has the fines and suspensions to prove it. Because women are permitted limited on court coaching on the regular WTA tour events but not the Slams, he may have been more tuned in to the coaches’ actions than usual. The ATP tour does not permit it at any tournament and to my knowledge Carlos primarily umpires for the ATP tour. He called the code in the second game of the second set. Not at a critical point by any stretch. As a stand alone call it would have no impact on the score. I’ll wager that in hindsight he probably wishes he had spoken to Serena at the changeover when he first noticed it. this is why I was cringing at the on and on and her coach to say he wad coaching. I was like oof |
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