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Post by Nonniedee on May 22, 2018 15:57:46 GMT -6
For me, no. I'll cop to being a person that likes clear lines tho. I guess I’m confused by this. Two separate reasons - acknowledging that many don’t like ripper for their own various reasons (myself included) Do we allow ourselves to continue to interact with R as normal because of our retroactive (collective) mistakes in dealing with racists? And, separately, I guess I don’t exactly get the comparison drawn between ripper and others here, as we are told by Kirkette (and others at gbcn) that not only did R do the sly racism thing but also basically actively followed Kirkette around boards/threads for years harassing her. That’s different level to me. I also may just not be understanding what you’re saying so I apologize if that’s the case. I don't understand the metrics being used. Historically black women HAVEN'T been believed here. Threads go on for pages and pages with us educating and explaining. At one point I divested because I was tired of arguing my humanity. Please understand that the sane type of racists are here. That's just what that is. I've been posting with some of you damn near 6 years. I've seen some shit. Idc whether y'all fuck with Ripper or not. I really don't. Just don't expect me to be all in on this "new day".
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Post by shan-ah-doo on May 22, 2018 15:59:16 GMT -6
I completely missed what happened with @ctg. Recently? What thread? She had basically said let’s not pull the race card but I’m paraphrasing. And like thisbitch continued to post like nothing and none of us called her out.
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Post by Nonniedee on May 22, 2018 15:59:23 GMT -6
I am having a hard time accepting that my friends have said problematic things and even harder time calling them racist. It's not hard for me to write-off ripper because i don't like her. That's the honest answer. It's harder for me to write-off people like thisbitch or ctg because I do like them. I also have a lot in common with them. It's a weird feeling. I am very comfortable with the fact that everyone has implicit biases. I know I'm not perfect in this regard. I cut myself no slack. I would be so angry at myself if I wrote the things they wrote here, but I somehow want to forgive others. I cut other people slack and it's difficult to come face to face with that. It's not ok and I need to grow. This is what I'm looking for. It feels convenient that someone disliked brought about all this change
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pobre
Ruby
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Post by pobre on May 22, 2018 16:00:26 GMT -6
I completely missed what happened with @ctg. Recently? What thread? The UO I linked.
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Post by shan-ah-doo on May 22, 2018 16:02:07 GMT -6
I am having a hard time accepting that my friends have said problematic things and even harder time calling them racist. It's not hard for me to write-off ripper because i don't like her. That's the honest answer. It's harder for me to write-off people like thisbitch or ctg because I do like them. I also have a lot in common with them. It's a weird feeling. I am very comfortable with the fact that everyone has implicit biases. I know I'm not perfect in this regard. I cut myself no slack. I would be so angry at myself if I wrote the things they wrote here, but I somehow want to forgive others. I cut other people slack and it's difficult to come face to face with that. It's not ok and I need to grow. This is what I'm looking for. It feels convenient that someone disliked brought about all this change I get this. Definitely makes sense to me.
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Post by miawallace on May 22, 2018 16:02:46 GMT -6
For me it depends where I am in headspace to call sometbing out. That's my privilege no doubt. I notice stuff more because of my background. It gets exhausting at times though. But I try to speak up when i can.
For me, problematic comes from all colors. I've seen many black folks and poc say stuff that has me tilting my head. Here and in real life. I'm speaking for myself and how i see people in general. I don't like to be told how to think and feel about anyone. I'm usually pretty good at discerning people and problematic stuff. I'm not defending anyone on racists matters. Let me be clear on this. I also know how fucked up woc have been with the black community so I don't give grace on that front.
And Im not talking about doubting black folks' word on racists things done to them. I believe it man. People are the worst, especially here on the internets where they hide behind a keyboard. hopefully I make sense because I'm not as eloquent with my words. I'm just rambling where I'm at here.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 16:03:31 GMT -6
I am having a hard time accepting that my friends have said problematic things and even harder time calling them racist. It's not hard for me to write-off ripper because i don't like her. That's the honest answer. It's harder for me to write-off people like thisbitch or ctg because I do like them. I also have a lot in common with them. It's a weird feeling. I am very comfortable with the fact that everyone has implicit biases. I know I'm not perfect in this regard. I cut myself no slack. I would be so angry at myself if I wrote the things they wrote here, but I somehow want to forgive others. I cut other people slack and it's difficult to come face to face with that. It's not ok and I need to grow. This is what I'm looking for. It feels convenient that someone disliked brought about all this change this and your response to me makes sense. Just quoting once instead of twice.
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mack
Amethyst
Posts: 6,437 Likes: 49,767
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Post by mack on May 22, 2018 16:04:01 GMT -6
I guess I’m confused by this. Two separate reasons - acknowledging that many don’t like ripper for their own various reasons (myself included) Do we allow ourselves to continue to interact with R as normal because of our retroactive (collective) mistakes in dealing with racists? And, separately, I guess I don’t exactly get the comparison drawn between ripper and others here, as we are told by Kirkette (and others at gbcn) that not only did R do the sly racism thing but also basically actively followed Kirkette around boards/threads for years harassing her. That’s different level to me. I also may just not be understanding what you’re saying so I apologize if that’s the case. I don't understand the metrics being used. Historically black women HAVEN'T been believed here. Threads go on for pages and pages with us educating and explaining. At one point I divested because I was tired of arguing my humanity. Please understand that the sane type of racists are here. That's just what that is. I've been posting with some of yippy damn near 6 years. I've seen some shit. Idc whether y'all fuck with Ripper or not. I really don't. Just don't expect me to be all in on this "new day". This makes complete sense to me. I didn’t mean to make it sound all kumbaya. I meant that I accept that it’s not fair for me to crucify Ripper. But that I appreciate being called out on my bullshit (not that it’s anyone’s job to teach me) and I want to continue to grow. Like I don’t want to say well because I have fucked up in the past, I shouldn’t do the right thing in the future. shan-ah-doo I tried so hard to not use “know better do better”
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 16:06:39 GMT -6
I am having a hard time accepting that my friends have said problematic things and even harder time calling them racist. It's not hard for me to write-off ripper because i don't like her. That's the honest answer. It's harder for me to write-off people like thisbitch or ctg because I do like them. I also have a lot in common with them. It's a weird feeling. I am very comfortable with the fact that everyone has implicit biases. I know I'm not perfect in this regard. I cut myself no slack. I would be so angry at myself if I wrote the things they wrote here, but I somehow want to forgive others. I cut other people slack and it's difficult to come face to face with that. It's not ok and I need to grow. In regards to ripper, what I am struggling with most is the years of harassment, the purposeful constant targeting that was talked about. For me, it’s about the going beyond what is normal on a message board, like the personal boundaries that were crossed. I side eyed her comment hard core in the IG thread, as well as her confession about hacking her friends SM account. Couple that with stories of years of harassment? I’m not fucking with you. Period. Fuck that.
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ripper
Opal
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Post by ripper on May 22, 2018 16:06:50 GMT -6
For me, no. I'll cop to being a person that likes clear lines tho. I guess I’m confused by this. Two separate reasons - acknowledging that many don’t like ripper for their own various reasons (myself included) Do we allow ourselves to continue to interact with R as normal because of our retroactive (collective) mistakes in dealing with racists? And, separately, I guess I don’t exactly get the comparison drawn between ripper and others here, as we are told by Kirkette (and others at gbcn) that not only did R do the sly racism thing but also basically actively followed Kirkette around boards/threads for years harassing her. That’s different level to me. I also may just not be understanding what you’re saying so I apologize if that’s the case. Frank, this is simply not true. I didn’t follow her around. I barely interacted with her in “8 years” as we did not frequent the same boards (for the most part). You can remain not liking me, but the gossip mill is problematic in these situations. Hate me for my actual transgressions, not the urban legends.
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Post by Nonniedee on May 22, 2018 16:07:48 GMT -6
This is my biggest issue with the ripper callout, and why maybe some of my comments read as a defense. Ripper isn't a vitrolic epithet spewing racist. She's racist in the same way several of y'all are. And yet, through the years, there's been patience and lessons handed out for others. So is it because she's an asshole in other ways? Maybe. But l couldn't "burn the witch" when others got a slap on the wrist. It feels disingenuous. I don’t know. Harassing a woman for years because you can’t believe a black girl can be rich? I agree with you when it comes to avatar. I think the kirkette thing was another world for me. Yes, ripper I know You disagree with that. On various iterations of this message board I've had someone Shade my daughter's name Call me angry and aggressive to shut down an argument Question the knowledge I have on my actual. factual profession Tell me I'm poor because I don't try hard enough This isn't new.
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Post by shan-ah-doo on May 22, 2018 16:09:21 GMT -6
I don’t know. Harassing a woman for years because you can’t believe a black girl can be rich? I agree with you when it comes to avatar. I think the kirkette thing was another world for me. Yes, ripper I know You disagree with that. On various iterations of this message board I've had someone Shade my daughter's name Call me angry and aggressive to shut down an argument Question the knowledge I have on my actual. factual profession Tell me I'm poor because I don't try hard enough This isn't new. Damn.
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McBenny
Unicorn
#sickomode
Posts: 52,412 Likes: 297,405
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Post by McBenny on May 22, 2018 16:11:25 GMT -6
I mean I think if you step back no matter your race and think about this topic of race. It's the same people talking. We have people who will never comment or participate. There could be a multitude of reasons but to me, that says something too. See for me, I get confused. I don’t know why or how to explain it, but the posts that are all “I’m sorry, know better, do better” make me cringe a bit. I honestly am not articulate enough to explain why. So I really don’t want to jump on the apology tour, but I don’t want to not participate either. I love tit to show I’m here and reading but worry that’s not enough. I honestly don’t know how to show I’m here or listening without doing the very thing that makes me cringe. I don’t want to come off as just following suit. I’m positive I’m not making sense here. I don't think people need to apologize or anything unless there is a thing that happened.
A like is participation for me. I just feel some people stay miles away always.
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ripper
Opal
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Post by ripper on May 22, 2018 16:11:36 GMT -6
This is my biggest issue with the ripper callout, and why maybe some of my comments read as a defense. Ripper isn't a vitrolic epithet spewing racist. She's racist in the same way several of y'all are. And yet, through the years, there's been patience and lessons handed out for others. So is it because she's an asshole in other ways? Maybe. But l couldn't "burn the witch" when others got a slap on the wrist. It feels disingenuous. I don’t know. Harassing a woman for years because you can’t believe a black girl can be rich? I agree with you when it comes to avatar. I think the kirkette thing was another world for me. Yes, ripper I know You disagree with that. I maintain she was projecting. I don’t doubt people didn’t believe she had the background she has and I don’t doubt that people in her life have been incredulous over it but that was not my issue. It just wasn’t. I have revisited those old threads and feel like my position was well documented.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 16:12:28 GMT -6
I guess I’m confused by this. Two separate reasons - acknowledging that many don’t like ripper for their own various reasons (myself included) Do we allow ourselves to continue to interact with R as normal because of our retroactive (collective) mistakes in dealing with racists? And, separately, I guess I don’t exactly get the comparison drawn between ripper and others here, as we are told by Kirkette (and others at gbcn) that not only did R do the sly racism thing but also basically actively followed Kirkette around boards/threads for years harassing her. That’s different level to me. I also may just not be understanding what you’re saying so I apologize if that’s the case. Frank, this is simply not true. I didn’t follow her around. I barely interacted with her in “8 years” as we did not frequent the same boards (for the most part). You can remain not liking me, but the gossip mill is problematic in these situations. Hate me for my actual transgressions, not the urban legends. Thing is, your post history over there is scrubbed. You lied to us about who you were. You have beyond questionable stories about hacking a friend’s SM account for years and you made that eye raising comment in the IG thread. I’m sorry but you’re not giving us a whole lot to take you on your word, along with everything else.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 16:18:47 GMT -6
I am having a hard time accepting that my friends have said problematic things and even harder time calling them racist. It's not hard for me to write-off ripper because i don't like her. That's the honest answer. It's harder for me to write-off people like thisbitch or ctg because I do like them. I also have a lot in common with them. It's a weird feeling. I am very comfortable with the fact that everyone has implicit biases. I know I'm not perfect in this regard. I cut myself no slack. I would be so angry at myself if I wrote the things they wrote here, but I somehow want to forgive others. I cut other people slack and it's difficult to come face to face with that. It's not ok and I need to grow. This is what I'm looking for. It feels convenient that someone disliked brought about all this change I have spent a lot of time thinking about what I would personally change in my behavior in all three situations because my perceptions and willingness to engage were different, so I need to explore that. I'm worried that this will blow over and things will keep on keeping on. I really don't want that. I do have a question and I don't want to burden our WOC posters to educate us, but since we are here maybe it can be productive to discuss. So let's use the ctg example. It was called out day of. (Not debating the quality or depth of the call out) Then life moved on. I felt there wasn't an effort to address it or apologize by OP. And I never said anything. However, in thinking of my own participation, is it appropriate for me to say "hey, i think you need to apologize for what you said"? Because that feels awkward on a number of levels: (1) and most importantly, maybe the party that was targeted doesn't want the apology or really any more interaction with OP and so I shouldn't force that and make the situation worse for the person hurt (2) maybe the OP isn't really sorry, so am I setting the stage for a fake apology and more issues When we as a board say we are going to do better, let's put some concrete words behind that. What can we do better in this recent example?
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McBenny
Unicorn
#sickomode
Posts: 52,412 Likes: 297,405
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Post by McBenny on May 22, 2018 16:21:50 GMT -6
For me, no. I'll cop to being a person that likes clear lines tho. I guess I’m confused by this. Two separate reasons - acknowledging that many don’t like ripper for their own various reasons (myself included) Do we allow ourselves to continue to interact with R as normal because of our retroactive (collective) mistakes in dealing with racists? And, separately, I guess I don’t exactly get the comparison drawn between ripper and others here, as we are told by Kirkette (and others at gbcn) that not only did R do the sly racism thing but also basically actively followed Kirkette around boards/threads for years harassing her. That’s different level to me. I also may just not be understanding what you’re saying so I apologize if that’s the case. See I am so confused with you because you defended her so much in the past. (not that you should or should not have)
I feel each person has to decide for themselves how they want to interact with her or any other person.
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Post by yoginikiki on May 22, 2018 16:23:00 GMT -6
Sometimes I feel like I end up deferring to the "Grown ups." I don't internet from the gut like I do IRL. Sometimes this is because I have a hard time reading and writing language without nonverbal cues, sometimes because I am way out of the loop and by the time I get here it is no longer a thing, and sometimes because I feel like my voice is just noise. That isn't fair to the grownups --- and I suspect there are other less frequent posters who do the same.
I'm not saying this for any other reason than to maybe ask those other posters who identify with this post to think about what next steps may be. ETA: and then do something
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McBenny
Unicorn
#sickomode
Posts: 52,412 Likes: 297,405
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Post by McBenny on May 22, 2018 16:26:52 GMT -6
Maybe if I develop the Nonniedee and McBenny approach to casual racism, I will be able to tolerate more than 2 people in MH’s family. I have to stay away from 🍍 🍊 Fineapple 🍍 🍊 though... I am actually harder on family though. If there is a chance you are around my kids, there is a stronger line for me.
I feel that I too am learning and exploring how I want my role to be. I don't remember ever in life so much conversations among people about race. Right now I am case by case. I will get some things right and I will get some things wrong.
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Post by yoginikiki on May 22, 2018 16:27:38 GMT -6
As far as ripper goes, I noted above that I do not go after people I know I have a bias against. Impartial juries and all that. This would be the first case of that though so I can't use that excuse on any other circumstance.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 16:30:16 GMT -6
I guess I’m confused by this. Two separate reasons - acknowledging that many don’t like ripper for their own various reasons (myself included) Do we allow ourselves to continue to interact with R as normal because of our retroactive (collective) mistakes in dealing with racists? And, separately, I guess I don’t exactly get the comparison drawn between ripper and others here, as we are told by Kirkette (and others at gbcn) that not only did R do the sly racism thing but also basically actively followed Kirkette around boards/threads for years harassing her. That’s different level to me. I also may just not be understanding what you’re saying so I apologize if that’s the case. See I am so confused with you because you defended her so much in the past. (not that you should or should not have)
I feel each person has to decide for themselves how they want to interact with her or any other person.
to be clear I defended her on principle (ie not being treated unfairly by admins). Frankly I don’t excuse myself for not seeing her as racist after the avatar incident. I should have just stopped interacting with her then, but I couldn’t or didn’t see past my whiteness/my privilege.
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ripper
Opal
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Post by ripper on May 22, 2018 16:32:00 GMT -6
Frank, this is simply not true. I didn’t follow her around. I barely interacted with her in “8 years” as we did not frequent the same boards (for the most part). You can remain not liking me, but the gossip mill is problematic in these situations. Hate me for my actual transgressions, not the urban legends. Thing is, your post history over there is scrubbed. You lied to us about who you were. You have beyond questionable stories about hacking a friend’s SM account for years and you made that eye raising comment in the IG thread. I’m sorry but you’re not giving us a whole lot to take you on your word, along with everything else. I’m quoted many many times. You can get info from that. I had to scrub bc of irl shit. I would be surprised if others wouldn’t do the same. My IG comment was a result of experience, and I was not wrong. Someone posted my IG and real name here just days ago. As I said, cancel me if you want but stop the spreading of shit that ain’t true.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 16:32:58 GMT -6
Well, that's a third problem with asking for an apology. You can't force someone to make a good one. I appreciate you sharing your point of view, 🍍 🍊 Fineapple 🍍 🍊
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 16:37:03 GMT -6
Thing is, your post history over there is scrubbed. You lied to us about who you were. You have beyond questionable stories about hacking a friend’s SM account for years and you made that eye raising comment in the IG thread. I’m sorry but you’re not giving us a whole lot to take you on your word, along with everything else. I’m quoted many many times. You can get info from that. I had to scrub bc of irl shit. I would be surprised if others wouldn’t do the same. My IG comment was a result of experience, and I was not wrong. Someone posted my IG and real name here just days ago. As I said, cancel me if you want but stop the spreading of shit that ain’t true. And hey for what it’s worth, I didn’t agree with your IG being outed. That’s fucked up. That’s not a “receipt” if you will. Honestly the lengths this all has gotten to has made me uncomfortable because on all fronts it feels like people’s privacy and sense of security was invaded. It made me question whether or not I want to post anymore and I’m still on the fence. But with that said, my other comments still stand, a lot of your post history is gone, and you lied to us. Shit like that makes it really tough to ignore. So, yeah, it’s a cancel for me.
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ripper
Opal
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Post by ripper on May 22, 2018 16:38:41 GMT -6
Also, you can’t extend grace on gbcn. You get tossed. Right or wrong (and to me, it is dependent on the individual circumstances of a situation). There Are many who can vouch for me, but they aren’t allowed to publicly say so, which is fucked up beyond reason. This place is different and why I have stuck around through previous missteps. I could have taken a page from thisbitch’s playbook and peaced out but that helps nothing to slow the snowball of misinformation.
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mack
Amethyst
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Post by mack on May 22, 2018 16:50:23 GMT -6
This is what I'm looking for. It feels convenient that someone disliked brought about all this change I have spent a lot of time thinking about what I would personally change in my behavior in all three situations because my perceptions and willingness to engage were different, so I need to explore that. I'm worried that this will blow over and things will keep on keeping on. I really don't want that. I do have a question and I don't want to burden our WOC posters to educate us, but since we are here maybe it can be productive to discuss. So let's use the ctg example. It was called out day of. (Not debating the quality or depth of the call out) Then life moved on. I felt there wasn't an effort to address it or apologize by OP. And I never said anything. However, in thinking of my own participation, is it appropriate for me to say "hey, i think you need to apologize for what you said"? Because that feels awkward on a number of levels: (1) and most importantly, maybe the party that was targeted doesn't want the apology or really any more interaction with OP and so I shouldn't force that and make the situation worse for the person hurt (2) maybe the OP isn't really sorry, so am I setting the stage for a fake apology and more issues When we as a board say we are going to do better, let's put some concrete words behind that. What can we do better in this recent example? I don’t think we can put words behind it. At this point, it’s all bullshit. Unless we actually demonstrate what we keep preaching.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 16:56:44 GMT -6
I have spent a lot of time thinking about what I would personally change in my behavior in all three situations because my perceptions and willingness to engage were different, so I need to explore that. I'm worried that this will blow over and things will keep on keeping on. I really don't want that. I do have a question and I don't want to burden our WOC posters to educate us, but since we are here maybe it can be productive to discuss. So let's use the ctg example. It was called out day of. (Not debating the quality or depth of the call out) Then life moved on. I felt there wasn't an effort to address it or apologize by OP. And I never said anything. However, in thinking of my own participation, is it appropriate for me to say "hey, i think you need to apologize for what you said"? Because that feels awkward on a number of levels: (1) and most importantly, maybe the party that was targeted doesn't want the apology or really any more interaction with OP and so I shouldn't force that and make the situation worse for the person hurt (2) maybe the OP isn't really sorry, so am I setting the stage for a fake apology and more issues When we as a board say we are going to do better, let's put some concrete words behind that. What can we do better in this recent example? I don’t think we can put words behind it. At this point, it’s all bullshit. Unless we actually demonstrate what we keep preaching. I guess I feel like if we can't even give some ideas of how we would handle an actual thing that happened here, things will not change. I'm not trying to be negative, but just real. Like every person who posts here should be thinking of what we would do differently next time.
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mack
Amethyst
Posts: 6,437 Likes: 49,767
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Post by mack on May 22, 2018 17:00:24 GMT -6
I don’t think we can put words behind it. At this point, it’s all bullshit. Unless we actually demonstrate what we keep preaching. I guess I feel like if we can't even give some ideas of how we would handle an actual thing that happened here, things will not change. I'm not trying to be negative, but just real. Like every person who posts here should be thinking of what we would do differently next time. I think you and I are on the same page. I agree. I am comfortable saying that we (myself included) have used racism conveniently. Given our friends grace when it was comfortable for us and crucified when we could use it against someone we don’t like. But us saying we are going to do better doesn’t mean anything at this point. We can say we know better now and things will change but our track record is shit. So yes, we have to do better. But it doesn’t make anything better until we stop talking and start putting it into practice consistently.
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McBenny
Unicorn
#sickomode
Posts: 52,412 Likes: 297,405
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Post by McBenny on May 22, 2018 17:00:47 GMT -6
See I am so confused with you because you defended her so much in the past. (not that you should or should not have)
I feel each person has to decide for themselves how they want to interact with her or any other person.
to be clear I defended her on principle (ie not being treated unfairly by admins). Frankly I don’t excuse myself for not seeing her as racist after the avatar incident. I should have just stopped interacting with her then, but I couldn’t or didn’t see past my whiteness/my privilege. See I don't think that's it. I asked her directly about the avatar. She gave me her answer. It wasn't strong but I was like ok. I didn't chalk it up to racism mbut racial insensitivity. I don't have white privileges.
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Post by Nonniedee on May 22, 2018 17:02:24 GMT -6
Maybe if I develop the Nonniedee and McBenny approach to casual racism, I will be able to tolerate more than 2 people in MH’s family. I have to stay away from 🍍 🍊 Fineapple 🍍 🍊 though... I'm not tolerant of casual racism, I'm just jaded by the bullshit. I operate in accordance with whatever arena I'm in. Fuck I look like stressing myself out over people doing the same shit they've been doing? I make my mental notation and keep it pushing. My life is pretty much populated by 99% black people. I revel in it, and guard that fiercely. This space isn't mine really. At times I'm the square peg wedged in a round hole. I'm not trying to plant my flag here. I'm comfortable coming and going as I please.
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