brux
Diamond
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Post by brux on May 22, 2018 13:40:45 GMT -6
geekygirly, I appreciate you sharing that. I really, really don't think you're alone in that misunderstanding as it is rooted in so many years of pervasive prejudice in all areas of American life.
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brux
Diamond
Posts: 35,448 Likes: 283,480
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Post by brux on May 22, 2018 13:41:58 GMT -6
I appreciate your reflection and study of this geekygirly . No shade. It is a common story that was spread and my friends and I always wondered who this happened to because it just wasn’t our experience. There are certain activities that are predominantly white and that we sometimes heard called white people stuff but it never was ties to academics or speech. socioeconomic differences between various schools or districts could explain it, maybe?
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Post by lucilleaustero on May 22, 2018 13:47:03 GMT -6
I appreciate your reflection and study of this geekygirly . No shade. It is a common story that was spread and my friends and I always wondered who this happened to because it just wasn’t our experience. There are certain activities that are predominantly white and that we sometimes heard called white people stuff but it never was ties to academics or speech. I taught in Queens for 4 years and I had some of my honors students talk to me about being told this. But, their perspective was that of 13 year olds. I was out of my depth and was never sure if I handled it the way I should have. It was beyond my scope of experience as a new teacher.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 13:48:52 GMT -6
I struggle with my Father-in-law and his generation (baby boomers), particularly the white males which my FIL is. This is sort of off topic, but sort of not as we were talking about racism/classism in different generations. It's just had me thinking a lot lately about that generation. He was at our house 2 weeks ago, talking about how Trump is a blowhard idiot. My FIL is a Republican, he absolutely hated Barack Obama - his reasoning is the Affordable Care Act. He talks about it all.the.time. How terrible it was, it was a handout, government shouldn't be getting that involved in healthcare, it's socialism, it's unfair to him, etc. etc.
I was in the throws of morning sickness and not in a good mood, he was at my house with MIL helping my H with our son. I was feeling a little better and decided to join them downstairs. They were talking about Trump being an idiot and of course that spiraled into more politics, healthcare came up. My FIL doesn't think he should have to pay what he had to for healthcare because he says he is paying for other people who make less money than him to have it too. He said "why should I have to pay for the guy at McDonalds to have health care?"
I looked at him square in the face and said "So he works in fast food, that means he doesn't deserve to have health care? Why the fuck then should I have to pay for you to have access to medicare when you and all of the other entitled white 60 year old men in this country vote for politicians who want to take it away from me and your son and countless hard working Americans in our generation?"
He got up, and walked out. Not saying a word. Got in his car and drove home. Maybe I was out of line in my delivery, but I am fucking sick of the entitlement.
I feel like that people like him, their opinions are toxic. They don't truly care about other people. It is me, me, me and I see this mentality be handed down to other generations and it plays out in many forms through racism, classism, sexism, etc, etc. It festers. He was so angry when he was talking about it, too. The look on his face. The guy at McDonalds having healthcare made him that angry.
I don't even know how to talk to him anymore and quite frankly, I don't want to. It's one thing to have political differences, it's another and very telling to me when you make statements like that one. The judgment. The fucking entitlement. And I really want him to go eat dirt now.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 13:59:56 GMT -6
I've hesitated on posting for a long time, but I feel like I should post because I have a confession to make, and maybe other people who are staying silent are the same as me. I'm not even sure I'm going to word this properly so forgive me if I don't. When thisbitch talked about "acting white" as a term used primarily by POC to put down other POC, I was somewhat of the same belief. In my life, I had been fed and believed anecdotes about black kids and adults being accused of "acting white" if they tried to "better themselves." (I feel so awful even typing that now, but it is the truth.) I never understood why it was the case ("why would you want to keep your own people down?"), but I bought into it. And I was raised in a supposedly liberal, democratic family in a major, diverse city. I think I must have missed a lot of what happened in the original thread, but after the "I'm here" thread, I thought about what you all said, and then thought about the true implications of "better" being associated with "acting white" and was horrified. I had never really put two and two together before. Then I did some research online, and discovered that there were researchers in the 80s who concluded that black children were held back by their peers accusing them of "acting white" if they were successful in school. They even wrote books on this! Obviously, later research proved the original research to be full of crap, but that didn't stop the insidiousness of the narrative. And it is still being used to justify not spending resources on black schools, because "Obviously they are the ones holding themselves back, it couldn't possibly be the lack of resources we give them. Why should we bother giving them resources if they won't use them anyway?" (full sarcasm font there, in case you can't tell) I hit me like a ton of bricks that this whole "acting white" thing was a bunch of bullcrap being used to keep POC down. One article I read also addressed some of the anecdotes you still hear about it (like thisbitch's supposed story about the girl in school), and it was so obvious that kids are dumb-asses and there are always bullies. If they weren't using "acting white," they'd be using "nerd" or some other criticism -- but we don't have a narrative about white kids keeping themselves down. And the newest research even showed that teasing/bullying among POC has even less of an effect than on white kids...but no one talks about that...because people don't want to hear that. So here is my confession of being a total idiot and being unintentionally racist. I'm sure lots of you are shaking your heads at me right now. (I know I am at myself.) Also here are the articles I read in case anyone else is interested: www.theroot.com/the-acting-white-theory-doesn-t-add-up-1790895058www.vox.com/identities/2017/1/5/14175116/acting-white-myth-black-kids-academics-school-achievement-gap-debunkedI appreciate you sharing this and hope you don't mind me quoting it, because I agree many people are probably reading along (like me) and looking to learn and I like the way you summarized this particular issue.
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rvasc
Emerald
Posts: 14,421 Likes: 83,501
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Post by rvasc on May 22, 2018 14:08:41 GMT -6
One of my friends in high school definitely encountered the “acting white” narrative, but it was from white kids. It was racist then, and it’s racist now. She walked a really difficult path being the only black kid in the honors program in our grade, and she was one of two black cheerleaders on a team of 20. This was in no way representative of the demographics of the school. I didn’t know anything about systemic racism at the time, and looking back it makes me really angry.
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sterling
Global Moderator
GD
Posts: 15,068 Likes: 130,504
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Post by sterling on May 22, 2018 14:13:09 GMT -6
So there are two pieces of this in my head, the big picture of what will I as an individual stand for, do, and see in my life. What are my values at my core (macro scale) and how do those values manifest, be it at work, at home, on a message board, wherever (micro scale). For me, this micro scale is where the hard work happens. What do I do when my family or friend do/does something racist? Do I defend them? Or do I confront them? Do I slink away and take the easy road?
I slink too often. I don’t as much as I used to. I’ve had to relearn a lot. I was raised by low key racists who don’t think they’re racist, but really truly are. It’s not an excuse but here I am. So I’m trying to match my actions and call outs and suck up hard situations to match the macro version of myself I have in my head, of who I want to be. Even on a message board where I think I write it off a lot as “not worth it.” But the truth is posting here has shaped me tremendously, and it’s so worth it.
I am not looking for accolades or way to goes. I am sharing to admit how I’ve routinely fucked up here and IRL. And to say I appreciate you all bearing with me.
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Post by bearfootzcontinued on May 22, 2018 14:30:06 GMT -6
So there are two pieces of this in my head, the big picture of what will I as an individual stand for, do, and see in my life. What are my values at my core (macro scale) and how do those values manifest, be it at work, at home, on a message board, wherever (micro scale). For me, this micro scale is where the hard work happens. What do I do when my family or friend do/does something racist? Do I defend them? Or do I confront them? Do I slink away and take the easy road? I slink too often. I don’t as much as I used to. I’ve had to relearn a lot. I was raised by low key racists who don’t think they’re racist, but really truly are. It’s not an excuse but here I am. So I’m trying to match my actions and call outs and suck up hard situations to match the macro version of myself I have in my head, of who I want to be. Even on a message board where I think I write it off a lot as “not worth it.” But the truth is posting here has shaped me tremendously, and it’s so worth it. I am not looking for accolades or way to goes. I am sharing to admit how I’ve routinely fucked up here and IRL. And to say I appreciate you all bearing with me. Can I say "ditto" to this since I'm not sure how to put my thoughts into words right now? I've come to realize that while I may be quick to call out blatant racism IRL, that is not enough and I have failed at recognizing my own faults.
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ripper
Opal
Posts: 8,601 Likes: 30,205
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Post by ripper on May 22, 2018 14:33:00 GMT -6
Not being perfect doesn’t make one a failure.
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Post by veganontuesdays on May 22, 2018 14:50:30 GMT -6
I struggle with posting if I am not here for a problem in real time (that's being called out) and not wanting it to come off as disingenuous, but then also with the fucked up notion of silently sitting back and letting shit happen without addressing it ever myself. This then manifests into the issue I have with barging in with an apology about not standing up, or shutting up and listening. Know better, do better. Etc. Because I try hard to not make moments like these about ME and what I need to learn. I recognize that it's no one's responsibility but my own to do better. I just hope that my silence in that sense doesn't come off as zero fucks because that is not the case. I have learned a lot from everyone here and I know that it's not even the tip of the iceberg. sterling said it beautifully with matching the person who I am even online with the version of myself that I have built in my head.
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Post by Nonniedee on May 22, 2018 15:07:29 GMT -6
okay so people reacted right away is very different than "nothing was said".... yes? You are not following. People reacted to the post and poster and asked questions. Person left and came back and never addressed anything that was said at all.
People have also not followed up with it either or asked anything when poster came back.
It's just floating in the universe.
This is my biggest issue with the ripper callout, and why maybe some of my comments read as a defense. Ripper isn't a vitrolic epithet spewing racist. She's racist in the same way several of y'all are. And yet, through the years, there's been patience and lessons handed out for others. So is it because she's an asshole in other ways? Maybe. But l couldn't "burn the witch" when others got a slap on the wrist. It feels disingenuous.
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sterling
Global Moderator
GD
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Post by sterling on May 22, 2018 15:15:01 GMT -6
You are not following. People reacted to the post and poster and asked questions. Person left and came back and never addressed anything that was said at all.
People have also not followed up with it either or asked anything when poster came back.
It's just floating in the universe.
This is my biggest issue with the ripper callout, and why maybe some of my comments read as a defense. Ripper isn't a vitrolic epithet spewing racist. She's racist in the same way several of y'all are. And yet, through the years, there's been patience and lessons handed out for others. So is it because she's an asshole in other ways? Maybe. But l couldn't "burn the witch" when others got a slap on the wrist. It feels disingenuous. This is similar to where I have landed, and seeing this thread side by side with what was imo actually vitriolic shit (aka thisbitch) has provided this perspective for me. But kirkette/any black woman also doesn’t owe me a dossier on someone’s racism in order for me to trust them, so I’m still feeling pretty torn.
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McBenny
Unicorn
#sickomode
Posts: 52,412 Likes: 297,405
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Post by McBenny on May 22, 2018 15:16:49 GMT -6
I mean I think if you step back no matter your race and think about this topic of race. It's the same people talking.
We have people who will never comment or participate. There could be a multitude of reasons but to me, that says something too.
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Post by veganontuesdays on May 22, 2018 15:20:50 GMT -6
I mean I think if you step back no matter your race and think about this topic of race. It's the same people talking. We have people who will never comment or participate. There could be a multitude of reasons but to me, that says something too. You're right. And I think for some people it stems from the fear of saying the "wrong" thing. It's a cop out and I have been there too. It's been said here a million times but if you aren't willing to say something behind your fake name and avatar then there is doubt of it being done IRL. I am taking that to heart and will be keeping that in mind for future interactions here and my real life.
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Post by Nonniedee on May 22, 2018 15:22:44 GMT -6
This is my biggest issue with the ripper callout, and why maybe some of my comments read as a defense. Ripper isn't a vitrolic epithet spewing racist. She's racist in the same way several of y'all are. And yet, through the years, there's been patience and lessons handed out for others. So is it because she's an asshole in other ways? Maybe. But l couldn't "burn the witch" when others got a slap on the wrist. It feels disingenuous. This is similar to where I have landed, and seeing this thread side by side with what was imo actually vitriolic shit (aka thisbitch) has provided this perspective for me. But kirkette/any black woman also doesn’t owe me a dossier on someone’s racism in order for me to trust them, so I’m still feeling pretty torn. I'm sold on her being a racist. I've no doubts. BUT she's the same flavor racist of people we've experienced here, and their actions have been tolerated. Is the a new day or is this Ripper is cancelled because we hated that bitch anyway* *also racism.
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Post by shan-ah-doo on May 22, 2018 15:27:53 GMT -6
I mean I think if you step back no matter your race and think about this topic of race. It's the same people talking. We have people who will never comment or participate. There could be a multitude of reasons but to me, that says something too. See for me, I get confused. I don’t know why or how to explain it, but the posts that are all “I’m sorry, know better, do better” make me cringe a bit. I honestly am not articulate enough to explain why. So I really don’t want to jump on the apology tour, but I don’t want to not participate either. I love tit to show I’m here and reading but worry that’s not enough. I honestly don’t know how to show I’m here or listening without doing the very thing that makes me cringe. I don’t want to come off as just following suit. I’m positive I’m not making sense here.
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thatgolfb
Unicorn
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Post by thatgolfb on May 22, 2018 15:30:33 GMT -6
veganontuesdays you are speaking for me today. I tried to get into a race-related conversation once here (fairly recently, within the last few months) stemming from an article ripper shared. I went about it entirely the wrong way and stepped in shit, deservedly, and I know I said problematic things. I immediately regretted what I said and how I said it, and I think about it often. I know I said it then but I'm really sorry. Since then I have mainly tried to stay away from the tough conversations and that is on me. I have also not called other people out when I see them say problematic stuff (though I tend not to engage with them if i remember they have said it), because since I had that instance, I wonder if people will think I'm disingenuous for calling others out. Again, entirely on me for thinking this way and I will do better going forward. How I am viewed should absolutely not have any bearing on me calling others out. ETA: not try. I will do better.
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mack
Amethyst
Posts: 6,437 Likes: 49,767
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Post by mack on May 22, 2018 15:32:49 GMT -6
This is similar to where I have landed, and seeing this thread side by side with what was imo actually vitriolic shit (aka thisbitch) has provided this perspective for me. But kirkette/any black woman also doesn’t owe me a dossier on someone’s racism in order for me to trust them, so I’m still feeling pretty torn. I'm sold on her being a racist. I've no doubts. BUT she's the same flavor racist of people we've experienced here, and their actions have been tolerated. Is the a new day or is this Ripper is cancelled because we hated that bitch anyway* *also racism. Can it be both? Like can we acknowledge there is hypocrisy involved and also that ripper did other things to piss people off, but also that it is a new day and that we aren’t accepting this from any poster anymore. Period.
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Post by Nonniedee on May 22, 2018 15:34:07 GMT -6
I'm sold on her being a racist. I've no doubts. BUT she's the same flavor racist of people we've experienced here, and their actions have been tolerated. Is the a new day or is this Ripper is cancelled because we hated that bitch anyway* *also racism. Can it be both? Like can we acknowledge there is hypocrisy involved and also that ripper did other things to piss people off, but also that it is a new day and that we aren’t accepting this from any poster anymore. Period. For me, no. I'll cop to being a person that likes clear lines tho.
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rubysue
Amethyst
Posts: 7,203 Likes: 35,112
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Post by rubysue on May 22, 2018 15:35:33 GMT -6
I mean I think if you step back no matter your race and think about this topic of race. It's the same people talking. We have people who will never comment or participate. There could be a multitude of reasons but to me, that says something too. See for me, I get confused. I don’t know why or how to explain it, but the posts that are all “I’m sorry, know better, do better” make me cringe a bit. I honestly am not articulate enough to explain why. So I really don’t want to jump on the apology tour, but I don’t want to not participate either. I love tit to show I’m here and reading but worry that’s not enough. I honestly don’t know how to show I’m here or listening without doing the very thing that makes me cringe. I don’t want to come off as just following suit. I’m positive I’m not making sense here. I had a whole post typed out, but this is exactly where I am. So much of the “know better/do better” comes across as disingenuous to me and I don’t want to just “jump on the bandwagon”. I haven’t been around as much as I’d like lately and have missed the recent drama (thisbitch/ripper/booby/gbcn/etc) in real time. By the time I’m caught up, I feel like adding my thoughts is either beating a dead horse or resurrecting a dead thread. I’m reading, but I don’t want to add my voice just for the sake of adding my voice, if that makes any sense.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 15:38:03 GMT -6
Can it be both? Like can we acknowledge there is hypocrisy involved and also that ripper did other things to piss people off, but also that it is a new day and that we aren’t accepting this from any poster anymore. Period. For me, no. I'll cop to being a person that likes clear lines tho. I guess I’m confused by this. Two separate reasons - acknowledging that many don’t like ripper for their own various reasons (myself included) Do we allow ourselves to continue to interact with R as normal because of our retroactive (collective) mistakes in dealing with racists? And, separately, I guess I don’t exactly get the comparison drawn between ripper and others here, as we are told by Kirkette (and others at gbcn) that not only did R do the sly racism thing but also basically actively followed Kirkette around boards/threads for years harassing her. That’s different level to me. I also may just not be understanding what you’re saying so I apologize if that’s the case.
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Post by shan-ah-doo on May 22, 2018 15:40:06 GMT -6
Well I think not acknowledging Ripper anymore is a pretty good start.
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cribs
Sapphire
Posts: 4,276 Likes: 19,978
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Post by cribs on May 22, 2018 15:42:41 GMT -6
Well I think not acknowledging Ripper anymore is a pretty good start. I have just not further dealt with Ripper or others when they showed their true colors. I need to actively do more and not just act like I don't know them
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Post by shan-ah-doo on May 22, 2018 15:44:35 GMT -6
If I never hear “know better do better” again it’ll be too soon.
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Post by Nonniedee on May 22, 2018 15:47:08 GMT -6
For me, no. I'll cop to being a person that likes clear lines tho. I guess I’m confused by this. Two separate reasons - acknowledging that many don’t like ripper for their own various reasons (myself included) Do we allow ourselves to continue to interact with R as normal because of our retroactive (collective) mistakes in dealing with racists? And, separately, I guess I don’t exactly get the comparison drawn between ripper and others here, as we are told by Kirkette (and others at gbcn) that not only did R do the sly racism thing but also basically actively followed Kirkette around boards/threads for years harassing her. That’s different level to me. I also may just not be understanding what you’re saying so I apologize if that’s the case. I just typed 3 paragraphs and PB deleted. Hold on.
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Post by goldenbird on May 22, 2018 15:49:45 GMT -6
I am another person who usually reads things after the fact. I'm sorry for not speaking up and I know I should have. I read most of the threads but I never know what to say, which is part of the problem. Being silent isn't a good thing.
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Post by shan-ah-doo on May 22, 2018 15:51:34 GMT -6
Well I think not acknowledging Ripper anymore is a pretty good start. Wut? That means ignoring all the other posters with the same behavior right? Even your friends. Right? That was in response to @frank
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Post by angelashly on May 22, 2018 15:53:13 GMT -6
I mean I think if you step back no matter your race and think about this topic of race. It's the same people talking. We have people who will never comment or participate. There could be a multitude of reasons but to me, that says something too. See for me, I get confused. I don’t know why or how to explain it, but the posts that are all “I’m sorry, know better, do better” make me cringe a bit. I honestly am not articulate enough to explain why. So I really don’t want to jump on the apology tour, but I don’t want to not participate either. I love tit to show I’m here and reading but worry that’s not enough. I honestly don’t know how to show I’m here or listening without doing the very thing that makes me cringe. I don’t want to come off as just following suit. I’m positive I’m not making sense here. I agree with this and why I've been in here titting but not knowing what to say at the same time
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 15:54:17 GMT -6
I am having a hard time accepting that my friends have said problematic things and even harder time calling them racist. It's not hard for me to write-off ripper because i don't like her. That's the honest answer. It's harder for me to write-off people like thisbitch or ctg because I do like them. I also have a lot in common with them. It's a weird feeling. I am very comfortable with the fact that everyone has implicit biases. I know I'm not perfect in this regard. I cut myself no slack. I would be so angry at myself if I wrote the things they wrote here, but I somehow want to forgive others. I cut other people slack and it's difficult to come face to face with that. It's not ok and I need to grow.
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rubysue
Amethyst
Posts: 7,203 Likes: 35,112
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Post by rubysue on May 22, 2018 15:57:31 GMT -6
I completely missed what happened with @ctg. Recently? What thread?
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