|
Post by wesleycrusher on Apr 18, 2018 10:59:32 GMT -6
Thoughts? Anecdotes?
Brief synopsis: K teacher and guidance counselor have brought up holding DS (End of July Bday with Sep cutoff) back for K. He is on target academically, although the teacher has to sit down one-to-one with him and explain the concepts, then he gets it no problem. He does not get it when she explains to the class as a whole. Lots of issue being silly with friends and not listening to rules. Teacher does not think he has anything else going on (ADHD or something like that) just immaturity. Teacher and I have come up with strategies that work most of the time to manage him in her class, but he has issues outside the class- Lunch, bathroom, gym class. I called to speak to the guidance counselor after DS got in trouble in gym to ask what can I be doing at home to help. Guidance counselor immediately suggested having him evaluated, so I thought the school had just been waiting for me to ask. But when I told teacher that she was surprised because she only sees DS as lacking maturity and said she'd speak to the counselor and she'd follow whatever I wanted to do. Both conversations holding back was brought up.
Big issue is that DD will be starting K this year, and we really talked up to them that he is older and such to separate them when we started K. They are 10 weeks apart in age (virtual twins) so they did everything together up until then. Teacher and counselor know DD's coming to K and that it's the biggest issue- But if it's truly best for DS then I guess we'd need to work around it? Like how do we walk back a years worth of conversations about it all?
Ugh, I wished I listened to my gut and redshirted him last year and kept them together from the beginning. I'm mad at myself and feel like I made the wrong decision then.
|
|
crunch
Sapphire
Posts: 3,475 Likes: 18,095
|
Post by crunch on Apr 18, 2018 11:14:18 GMT -6
Our ECE group (prek3-K) does not hold back because of immaturity. So personally I would not be okay with that.
But I know it’s school district specific. Both that I have taught in try very very very hard NOT (forgot that word) to retain.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 11:17:31 GMT -6
Have you talked to the AP/Principal? Usually one, if not both, would be involved in this conversation.
IME, educators don't suggest these types of things lightly because they know how big of a deal it is. I would be inclined to follow their recommendation as long as I trusted that all parties involved had done their research/diligence and not just looking for an "easy" answer. It sounds like you trust the teacher/counselor for the most part.
|
|
|
Post by sheilathetank on Apr 18, 2018 11:19:53 GMT -6
I would do it. I was held back in 8th grade for similar reasons, but we switched schools. It would have been easier socially if it was done earlier. The fact that he can only get the concepts one on one is a red flag for me. Since one on one instruction is not something that can be maintained as he gets older it's most likely going to snowball and he could fall behind.
|
|
shadows
Sapphire
Posts: 3,391 Likes: 8,518
|
Post by shadows on Apr 18, 2018 11:22:35 GMT -6
I don’t have any advice, but anecdotally, a family friend decided to have her son repeat kindergarten (this was 40uears ago) for similar reasons. He had an October birthday, so he was already older. Her daughter was exactly a year younger, so she held her back, so they weren’t in the same grade (not at all suggesting you do this), and it turned out really well for them. Both of her kids excelled in school, and have really good jobs.
Because your kids are so close in age, I don’t think it’s weird for them to be in the same grade.
|
|
|
Post by shellbell on Apr 18, 2018 11:23:45 GMT -6
Are you planning to have him evaluated?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 11:27:08 GMT -6
Mine will be repeating and I’m relieved.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 11:28:13 GMT -6
Also I would make it v v v clear to school that it's important that DS and DD not be in the same class. I think that would create an issue since he'd feel like he already knows the ropes and she might not benefit from that.
I know many schools allow parents of twins to request their kids be together so this is just something I'd mention, personally.
|
|
regal
Sapphire
Posts: 3,506 Likes: 9,638
|
Post by regal on Apr 18, 2018 11:29:47 GMT -6
Is it a small school and they could end up in the same class?
Are there combined classes and he could be put in a K/1? this is what we often do if a kid could use a little practice with the previous years expectations.
Personally, if kids are too immature for the grade they in, it's the expectations that need to change, not the kid. Unfortunately it's a system issue, and not one that parents can change.
|
|
|
Post by sheilathetank on Apr 18, 2018 11:33:15 GMT -6
Also I would make it v v v clear to school that it's important that DS and DD not be in the same class. I think that would create an issue since he'd feel like he already knows the ropes and she might not benefit from that. I know many schools allow parents of twins to request their kids be together so this is just something I'd mention, personally. I think also they would not want him in a class with someone he is familiar with, when being silly with friends is his problematic behavior.
|
|
crunch
Sapphire
Posts: 3,475 Likes: 18,095
|
Post by crunch on Apr 18, 2018 11:34:38 GMT -6
I am most focused on the fact that the teacher has found strategies that have worked. If the issues are happening in the cafeteria and gym, they will keep happening regardless of the grade (if those teachers don’t have classroom management strategies that work for him in place).
That’s what our school would focus on.
|
|
Minerva
Ruby
Posts: 15,381 Likes: 67,036
|
Post by Minerva on Apr 18, 2018 11:38:33 GMT -6
I’d have him evaluated and use that info to inform your decision. If there are underlying issues like an LD or ADHD, retaining him won’t necessarily solve the problem. That decision is so kid specific and I would want all of the info possible while making it.
If he needs one-on-one support right now, could you hire a tutor for the remainder of the year and maybe into summer to help him catch up academically?
|
|
|
Post by wesleycrusher on Apr 18, 2018 11:40:14 GMT -6
Are you planning to have him evaluated? Not sure- we're leaning towards it but haven't received the packet from the guidance counselor yet (they are in the middle of the state testing, so teacher said she's been busy).
FWIW though, DH and I have both looked at the ADHD parent checklist and it doesn't seem to match him and his teacher is saying the same (but will follow our lead).
@frank we haven't talked to the principal yet as I just spoke to the teacher in person this morning about what the counselor said and she's going to talk to the counselor herself and get back to me.
|
|
|
Post by wesleycrusher on Apr 18, 2018 11:48:52 GMT -6
Minerva When I say he needs one on one- the reason is that he is so busy goofing off with a friend (he has one specific BFF in class) or acting silly, or trying to think up sneaky kid things to do, he doesn't pay attention when she teaches. He could get it, if he wasn't so distracted by the other things (which teacher sees as more of a maturity thing, rather than a LD or ADHD). crunch For example one thing the teacher and I did- DS was going to breakfast when I dropped him off at school. But we feed him at home, so he doesn't need to do this. He was going to see his friends there and then getting riled up, he wasn't going to eat. We figured this out and now I have to walk him into school everyday(usually they only allow drop off at the door) and make sure he goes to class right away and the teacher doesn't let him go to breakfast. So since he's stopped getting all riled up in the morning, his classroom behavior has gotten better.
|
|
|
Post by justbecause on Apr 18, 2018 11:50:58 GMT -6
My oldest was the immature kid in K last year. He has a May birthday with a September cutoff.
He had a tough time. Not academically but with properly dealing with emotions/etc. He met with the counselor every week to work on the skills he was lacking.
I had him evaluated and it was determined to be immaturity.
He’s now kicking 1st grade’s butt and his teacher says he’s a great kid.
|
|
crunch
Sapphire
Posts: 3,475 Likes: 18,095
|
Post by crunch on Apr 18, 2018 11:53:01 GMT -6
Minerva When I say he needs one on one- the reason is that he is so busy goofing off with a friend (he has one specific BFF in class) or acting silly, or trying to think up sneaky kid things to do, he doesn't pay attention when she teaches. He could get it, if he wasn't so distracted by the other things (which teacher sees as more of a maturity thing, rather than a LD or ADHD). crunch For example one thing the teacher and I did- DS was going to breakfast when I dropped him off at school. But we feed him at home, so he doesn't need to do this. He was going to see his friends there and then getting riled up, he wasn't going to eat. We figured this out and now I have to walk him into school everyday(usually they only allow drop off at the door) and make sure he goes to class right away and the teacher doesn't let him go to breakfast. So since he's stopped getting all riled up in the morning, his classroom behavior has gotten better. Do you think this stuff would change if he was in K again?
|
|
|
Post by wesleycrusher on Apr 18, 2018 11:53:03 GMT -6
Is it a small school and they could end up in the same class? Are there combined classes and he could be put in a K/1? this is what we often do if a kid could use a little practice with the previous years expectations. Personally, if kids are too immature for the grade they in, it's the expectations that need to change, not the kid. Unfortunately it's a system issue, and not one that parents can change. There are 3 K classes and right now 2 classes for every other grade (k-8). There is no K/1 but I wish there was.
|
|
|
Post by cdnfarmgirl on Apr 18, 2018 11:58:09 GMT -6
Honestly- I wouldn’t hold him back. He will mature. As an early years teacher, I see this lots. The kid seems so far behind their peers and really it’s immaturity. They catch up. I think you’d still be seeing those issues whether he is in k again or grade 1. Especially with your daughter coming into K, I’d move him up. Teacher should be working on strategies to help him be successful.
|
|
McBenny
Unicorn
#sickomode
Posts: 52,189 Likes: 296,706
|
Post by McBenny on Apr 18, 2018 12:00:17 GMT -6
If he needs one on one instructions to get new concepts then he is not really on target academically.
I don't feel immaturity is a reason to hold a child back.
Did the guidance counselor explain why she thought an evaluation was needed? And for what? Cognitive or emotional something?
I may be in the minority but I do feel educators recommend holding children back pretty commonly especially with K and especially with boys than girls. However, I look at IEPs all day so.
|
|
regal
Sapphire
Posts: 3,506 Likes: 9,638
|
Post by regal on Apr 18, 2018 12:01:54 GMT -6
Just a thought, if he's doing alright academically could he have a harder time next year since he'll be bored? If he knows the stuff, will he be even more likely to goof off or not pay attention? Since he knows he's older, will he try and take on the "cool" kid persona and impress the younger students with his goofiness?
DS1 hated his senior K year. It was the same classroom, same teachers, half the same kids, and it was basically just a repeat. He fought me every single day because he was bored and already knew everything. Fortunately he's not a disruptive kid.
This teacher needs to be differentiating her teaching. If group lessons aren't working then she needs to find something that does. Give him a job, give him a fidget toy, let him stand up behind the group, teach in small groups, have him review the lesson every few steps. It's not on your kid to repeat a grade, it's on the teachers to find things that work.
(Signed, a teacher who is tired of hearing her colleagues complain about "kids these days" when they haven't changed a thing about their teaching since 1994)
|
|
regal
Sapphire
Posts: 3,506 Likes: 9,638
|
Post by regal on Apr 18, 2018 12:02:04 GMT -6
Just a thought, if he's doing alright academically could he have a harder time next year since he'll be bored? If he knows the stuff, will he be even more likely to goof off or not pay attention? Since he knows he's older, will he try and take on the "cool" kid persona and impress the younger students with his goofiness?
DS1 hated his senior K year. It was the same classroom, same teachers, half the same kids, and it was basically just a repeat. He fought me every single day because he was bored and already knew everything. Fortunately he's not a disruptive kid.
This teacher needs to be differentiating her teaching. If group lessons aren't working then she needs to find something that does. Give him a job, give him a fidget toy, let him stand up behind the group, teach in small groups, have him review the lesson every few steps. It's not on your kid to repeat a grade, it's on the teachers to find things that work.
(Signed, a teacher who is tired of hearing her colleagues complain about "kids these days" when they haven't changed a thing about their teaching since 1994)
|
|
McBenny
Unicorn
#sickomode
Posts: 52,189 Likes: 296,706
|
Post by McBenny on Apr 18, 2018 12:02:29 GMT -6
I don't understand how he can be so distractible and lack the ability to attend to instruction but the ADHD sheet was so far off?
|
|
regal
Sapphire
Posts: 3,506 Likes: 9,638
|
Post by regal on Apr 18, 2018 12:03:02 GMT -6
If he needs one on one instructions to get new concepts then he is not really on target academically. I don't feel immaturity is a reason to hold a child back. Did the guidance counselor explain why she thought an evaluation was needed? And for what? Cognitive or emotional something? I may be in the minority but I do feel educators recommend holding children back pretty commonly especially with K and especially with boys than girls. However, I look at IEPs all day so. Depends, does he need it repreated because he doesn't understand? Or because he didn't care to listen the first time?
|
|
|
Post by wesleycrusher on Apr 18, 2018 12:03:53 GMT -6
Minerva When I say he needs one on one- the reason is that he is so busy goofing off with a friend (he has one specific BFF in class) or acting silly, or trying to think up sneaky kid things to do, he doesn't pay attention when she teaches. He could get it, if he wasn't so distracted by the other things (which teacher sees as more of a maturity thing, rather than a LD or ADHD). crunch For example one thing the teacher and I did- DS was going to breakfast when I dropped him off at school. But we feed him at home, so he doesn't need to do this. He was going to see his friends there and then getting riled up, he wasn't going to eat. We figured this out and now I have to walk him into school everyday(usually they only allow drop off at the door) and make sure he goes to class right away and the teacher doesn't let him go to breakfast. So since he's stopped getting all riled up in the morning, his classroom behavior has gotten better. Do you think this stuff would change if he was in K again? To be honest- no. But that is an excellent question to ask his teacher! I think it's definitely immaturity, as he is younger than many of the other kids, but it's also his personality. He is a suuuper confident and outgoing kid and not a natural rule follower. When the counselor first brought up holding him back, I was like "no" but when his teacher sadi it today it made me rethink because she is so good at working with him I trust her judgment.
Although it doesn't seem to effect him much now, he does get in trouble frequently and I just don't want that to turn into him disliking school.
|
|
sahara
New
Posts: 78 Likes: 106
|
Post by sahara on Apr 18, 2018 12:07:50 GMT -6
Like Minerva said, I’d get an evaluation before making the decision to hold him back. If there’s an underlying cause to his immaturity, you’re better off addressing that rather than just doing K again. FWIW, DD’s pre-K teacher recommended retention due to immaturity. We did hold her back, but also pursued a private eval that the teacher thought was unnecessary. She did get a diagnosis (ASD), so I’m glad we went forward with it.
|
|
McBenny
Unicorn
#sickomode
Posts: 52,189 Likes: 296,706
|
Post by McBenny on Apr 18, 2018 12:08:06 GMT -6
If he needs one on one instructions to get new concepts then he is not really on target academically. I don't feel immaturity is a reason to hold a child back. Did the guidance counselor explain why she thought an evaluation was needed? And for what? Cognitive or emotional something? I may be in the minority but I do feel educators recommend holding children back pretty commonly especially with K and especially with boys than girls. However, I look at IEPs all day so. Depends, does he need it repreated because he doesn't understand? Or because he didn't care to listen the first time? It doesn't really matter. This is practically an IEP modification he is receiving so that would imply that it's needed for him to even arrive to target.
|
|
|
Post by shellbell on Apr 18, 2018 12:26:10 GMT -6
I would have him evaluated. In my mind it seems like "can't hurt, might help."
I'm worried he would be bored in K again which would lead to bigger problems. Is he able to complete his work? Has he met the academic criteria to move up? I am leaning toward not holding him back at this point.
|
|
|
Post by wesleycrusher on Apr 18, 2018 12:32:33 GMT -6
shellbell yes academically he can move up. There's definitely been a big knowledge jump since starting K- he's doing addition and subtraction, knows sight words, reading simple things. We already enrolled him in a summer reading course, too, to make sure he's ready for 1st.
|
|
joy
Global Moderator
TTC, Pg, B&C
Posts: 9,195 Likes: 41,676
|
Post by joy on Apr 18, 2018 12:46:50 GMT -6
I would lean against holding back with this info here - but I’m not in the situation or know the players.
I worry that whatever gains you may make with maturity will backslide due to boredom. I’d rather him in a classroom of comparatively mature kids with material he can handle than a room of kids with his “same” maturity level and material he already knows.
But, generalizations abound in what I’m saying.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 12:48:31 GMT -6
I would lean against holding back with this info here - but I’m not in the situation or know the players. I worry that whatever gains you may make with maturity will backslide due to boredom. I’d rather him in a classroom of comparatively mature kids with material he can handle than a room of kids with his “same” maturity level and material he already knows. But, generalizations abound in what I’m saying. This is where I am. In your situation, I think I would talk to a professional (outside therapist) about an evaluation.
|
|