Teen defiance

[justbecause]

My 13 year old is very defiant and often tells me to “go fuck yourself, Karen” when I limit screen time to not every waking second and ask them to read their required 20 minutes for class.
Try to take them anywhere and they cry and carry on that it’s “boring” and proceed to be a PITA if “forced” to go.
(They are too nervous to stay home alone).

They’ve lost all devices for the foreseeable future.

So now they wander around the house being a jerk and making the 6 year old scream by calling him a baby or otherwise annoying him.
Can’t put them in their room because they won’t stay in there.
I’ve got a call in to the pediatrician and have an appointment next week.
But I’m really at my wit’s end. They get the 11 year old starting to act similar and I can’t stand them both.

I don’t know what I want but I’m hiding in my room trying not to cry about the whole situation.

[nevertoomanyshoes]

I’m sorry, that sounds challenging

My first thought was around their gender identity and now at this age, sexuality. Are they struggling with what that looks like or are they struggling socially at school? What are the friendships like?

Are they also ND? I only ask because most of the young folk I’ve encountered who are trans or nb are also ND and if they’re struggling with peers or social stuff and don’t have a close group of friends who get them it can be an even rougher time.

[justbecause]

Sept 22, 2024 14:58:40 GMT -6 nevertoomanyshoes said:

I’m sorry, that sounds challenging

My first thought was around their gender identity and now at this age, sexuality. Are they struggling with what that looks like or are they struggling socially at school? What are the friendships like?

Are they also ND? I only ask because most of the young folk I’ve encountered who are trans or nb are also ND and if they’re struggling with peers or social stuff and don’t have a close group of friends who get them it can be an even rougher time.

A few good friends moved on to 9th grade and I know they miss them.
Not sure about ND. Never been diagnosed with anything.

We were having issues over the summer too.

[coffeecake]

Anxiety and/or depression? I would bet that they don’t even know how to articulate how they’re feeling or what’s exactly wrong. I’d say you’re on the right track with the doctor and would look into therapy.

[peachesncream]

I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. I'm going through something similar with my 8 year old so I'm just going to word vomit what I am doing so far in hopes that it helps you.

Definitely start with a therapist. Psychology Today is a quick and easy way to find someone without a waiting list who is in network.

My daughter had an established therapist but noticed some worsening behaviors so we are now kind of delving into some diagnoses. My ex husband and I each filled out a Vanderbilt scale that we are bringing to a parent meeting with the therapist next week. Our scoring both indicated atypical/mixed ADHD as well as possible ODD. There's a few depression/anxiety questions on that scale but there's probably a better one out there specifically for depression in teens if you suspect that. Your PCP and therapist may be able to help guide you as to whether further testing and an official diagnosis is needed or if it can be addressed without going down that road. I know a lot of people in here are way more knowledgeable than me but just wanted to share since we are going through a defiant behavior stage ourselves. My daughter's behaviors happen as a perceived loss of control, it is an atypical ADHD presentation that I was previously unaware of.

[trueblue]

We’re there too, at 14. No advice. Just commiseration.

[adelbert]

Hmm being too nervous to stay home alone at 13, and crying before having to go to activities would be reasons for me to set up an appointment with the pediatrician. My 3 all have ADHD and while they normally aren't enthusiastic about family events they grudgingly come and often are enjoyable to be around once we're out and about. The older two sometimes push it with how they talk to us and we remind them of what is acceptable speech with friends isn't necessarily OK with parents etc. But overall it sounds like maybe there are some deeper issues that might be affecting how your 13 year old is feeling and a professional could be really helpful with figuring out what's going on.

[leahcar]

Therapy. I'll echo Psychology Today; it was super helpful in finding both my kids' and my own therapist.

[almostfamous]

Sorry you're going through this. It sounds like your teen may be frustrated with their anxiety about staying home alone and taking it out on you. I can imagine that being "forced" to tag along at mundane errands can be teen torture. I think having that option to stay home will give them the autonomy they need. I deal with disrespectful teens as well but their ability to stay home alone and exclude themselves from boring errands certainly helps with their mood. Here is a resource for helping children stay home alone
www.pennstatehealth.org/childrens/services-treatments/trauma-program/injury-prevention-program/staying-home-alone

[roselab]

I think some amount of defiance in teens is normal, because kids that age are full of emotions they have trouble expressing in appropriate ways, but I think it's important to identify where the emotions are coming from and deal with that if necessary, and teach them ways to express themselves appropriate ways to respond (to an extent at least...we've accepted that my 15 year old ds will respond with an exasperated-sounding WHAT??? when we call out for him, but as have accepted that as long as he DOES answer. Similarly, I don't mind overhearing him swearing while on a call with his friends while playing video games, but we have a 'no swearing AT people, especially parents or other adults' rule).

I would say my 15 year old ds's defiance comes from him thinking spending time talking to/playing video games with his friends is his one and only priority, and so we'd get attitude any time we'd ask him to do something that took away from that time. We've had to have lots of talks about how that can be a priority, but it can't be his ONLY priority and setting expectations for chores/behavior/time spent with family.

My 13 year old's defiance comes more from her wanting more independence than we are willing to give her at the moment/wanting to make decisions for herself even if she doesn't make the best ones/wanting the same rules as her older brother. So we talk a lot about how fair doesn't mean equal, they are different kids who need parented to meet their own individual needs, etc. But honestly, DD will talk back about not wanting to do stuff like clean her room or that 'I'm giving her too much to do at once!' but after giving some space, she calms down and apologizes, so I find that easier to ignore at the time. Ds will keep arguing and making excuses and whining.

[lucilleaustero]

DD is 13. She can be a pain in the ass. There is typical teen crap and defiance. I do not think telling a parent to go fuck themself is typical teen crap. I think most of what you are describing falls outside the realm of typical teenage dickiness.

It seems like he is struggling with something. Has his friend group changed lately? Have you contacted the school to see if things are going okay there? I don't really know what you can do in the immediate except try to get keep the lines of communication open with him until you get into the doc and a therapist. In the meantime, gathering as much info from teachers/ coaches/ him, so that when you do see the doctor you can give a complete picture.

[justbecause]

The whining isn’t just mundane errands but stuff like go to a craft show (one of their interests).
I can see not wanting to go to the 1st grade soccer games!

They quit cross country after being excited to join and then not wanting to participate (per the coach).

School seems to be going well. We just had open house and no one had anything negative to say.

My father took C yesterday and they decorated the cemetery for fall and then hit up McDonald’s. And apparently was pleasant and helpful.

Another piece of the puzzle would be their father and his general poor behavior of late.
They’ve never had a good relationship.

It’s been sinking into the rest of us. As an adult with better emotional control, it’s even difficult for me.

[ponyhairs]

So much commiseration. Mine is going to be 13 in a week and I already want to trade her in for something easier to deal with like a mountain lion or polar bear cub. I would echo finding a good therapist for them to talk to. I know for mine, even though I tell her she can come to me with whatever, she often feels safer expressing some of her thoughts and feelings to someone neutral. I also heard a really great line on a random TikTok today - It's ok to be mad, but it's not ok to be mean, and I intend to start using it ASAP.

[STP]

My daughter is 13, I get eye rolls and the occasional sass but tbh what you are writing here sounds much more extreme than your average teenage attitude issues.

I think getting them into a counselor as soon as you can arrange it is wise. What you're describing reads, to me, like depression. And I would not in any way be comforted by a positive open house, teachers are too in the weeds to be clued in to potential social troubles or bullying or any of the other stuff our kids deal with but don't share with us. Add in your later point of the father component, and it seems to me that getting a professional involved asap would be the best course of action.

I hope you can find someone they are comfortable with, who can help. And that insurance will work with you.

[babybean]

I believe ‘traumas aren’t your fault but they’re your responsibility’ and regardless of what someone is dealing with they don’t get a pass to be a shitty to others. The level of back talk you’re dealing with isn’t okay. I’m genuinely sorry. One of my kids deeply triggers me and it feels like an impossible battle sometimes, on top of everything else I have to manage alone.

I agree something may be going on.( Mental health, social circle, school stuff, personal relationships etc.) Open dialogue and being consistent with them is important, even when it feels like it’s useless. Are there any activities they might be interested in to keep them busy? Therapy can be good but it’s also exhausting and a multifaceted approach helps IMO. Do they have moments of clarity where they can communicate well after lashing out or is this a consistent state?

[babybean]

Does your child have a supportive community outside of the home regarding their gender identity? I’m not sure where you live or how LGBT friendly your area is. Having or not having a healthy space to just *exist* can be make or break.

[pobre]

Someone else mentioned it but my first thought was that not being ok to stay home alone at 13 is a pretty big red flag to me for anxiety.

[addymac]

Your initial post reminded me a lot of what we are going through with our 7yo DS. Anxiety up the wazoo. He’s in therapy and we finally started him on the smallest dosage of Zoloft bc his explosions and meltdowns were becoming so intense that we couldn’t get through a day or an activity without him falling apart.

We’re currently on the waiting list for a neuropsychiatric assessment, which both his child development specialist and his talk therapist separately recommended. I foresee a likely adhd diagnosis coming but I also wonder a LOT about ODD based on a lot of his defiance and anger reactions.

The latest post with more info to me points to depression. Particularly the not wanting to go to events for their own interests. Sometimes DS will say things that trigger a “this sounds like depression and low self esteem / self worth issues” so I asked the Dr about depression vs anxiety and he did point out that many of the symptoms for anxiety and depression overlap and that’s why he was picking Zoloft bc it could help with any possible depression as well.

I’m so sorry. It’s so draining and exhausting and maddening and hurtful when they act like this.

[sherminator]

Look up PDA and see if it applies to your situation. It’s called pervasive demand avoidance- II see it in my ND teen (turned 14 on Sunday) and there are some things that have been helpfull in reading more about it and asking in different ways as well

[jamboree]

My kids are older now -- fully launched adults now, and this phase passes, I promise. These two books were life altering for me and I still recommend them all the time. FTR I like my kids now, genuinely. Not like I had to pretend to when they were that age.

Get Out of My Life, but First Could You Drive Me & Cheryl to the Mall
www.amazon.com/Life-First-Could-Drive-Cheryl/dp/0374528535/ref=sr_1_1?crid=23EQ58V9CP003&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.tQ-kkbwiBd9g3SklnWwLf4_j32ZQAj6x2bkXKBAI6PcqoZ6iQ98sEdUSmohuhcCpPMxpRdAr_IxmBzaIXiC0sw.AJYFY_xXDQLpjdU1zohToLJpAycvRWYAZZvR7QG0oLk&dib_tag=se&keywords=get+out+of+my+life+but+first+drive+me+and+cheryl+to+the+mall&qid=1727241645&sprefix=First+drive+me+to+the+mall%2Caps%2C89&sr=8-1

Parenting with love and Logic
www.amazon.com/Parenting-Love-Logic-Essential-Relationship/dp/B0DC5QKVJY/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=2L8BY4OZ64AP2&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.J_P3wmlHvTCMRyJfQ-tWkuQjKEizWXAegps68o-StyFxKYJS9xQ6az8718SzlhRl3rAMyJL7yDS41Aqdy9bDSirMXREr91rwgvY1dl_RTOgqbRBYveLz7ijCHcbjAS_1nheC3j5_At0wlLU4rzD95nPxBm2KhFFbO3YltBojvubzEc4bimNRkSoiWj2v1MpwX7CyeKQTk10Gt5UpLgKAKrYfjf48W5ApEOHEjEk1r3s.pDhqScg17Syeu_anyfeltdxqojRmqCl18xG4rCtb6uY&dib_tag=se&keywords=love+and+logic&qid=1727241683&sprefix=Love+and+logic%2Caps%2C118&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1

[justbecause]

The appointment is today. Unfortunately his father has to be the one to take them.
I’m going to try and zoom in and I sent a sheet of questions with him.

[STP]

Sept 30, 2024 8:14:54 GMT -6 justbecause said:

The appointment is today. Unfortunately his father has to be the one to take them.
I’m going to try and zoom in and I sent a sheet of questions with him.

Are you able to call ahead and express concerns? 

[nevertoomanyshoes]

Hope the appointment goes well and you get some options or paths to go forward with.

[McBenny]

Sept 23, 2024 9:31:54 GMT -6 roselab said:

I think some amount of defiance in teens is normal, because kids that age are full of emotions they have trouble expressing in appropriate ways, 

I think this is an excuse used when people don't know what else to say. People say this about biting toddlers. By the time they are a teen they should know how to communicate their wants, needs, and emotions with you. Like seriously, that ship should have sailed long ago. 

[McBenny]

Sept 23, 2024 9:47:13 GMT -6 lucilleaustero said:

DD is 13. She can be a pain in the ass. There is typical teen crap and defiance. I do not think telling a parent to go fuck themself is typical teen crap.

I am not going to dwell on this too long because when I say this kind of thing is absolutely unacceptable then it gets turned onto me having an issue. Comments about my kids etc

I would definitely start here.

We cannot proceed anywhere until we address this shit here. I would nip this shit in the bud as soon as it happened. There is nothing in your life that happens normally, no privileges, no outings, no games until this is addressed.

[justbecause]

Therapy once a week and a list of expectations for them every day as a starting point.

[roselab]

Oct 1, 2024 13:43:14 GMT -6 McBenny said:

Sept 23, 2024 9:31:54 GMT -6 roselab said:

I think some amount of defiance in teens is normal, because kids that age are full of emotions they have trouble expressing in appropriate ways, 

I think this is an excuse used when people don't know what else to say. People say this about biting toddlers. By the time they are a teen they should know how to communicate their wants, needs, and emotions with you. Like seriously, that ship should have sailed long ago. 

I wasn't saying it was acceptable.  I was saying that some teens experience new and different emotions as they make the transition from childhood to young adulthood, and they might struggle with how to deal with and express those emotions.  As a parent, it's your job to teach them appropriate ways to cope, and if you need help doing that, then seeking out therapy of some sort (like the OP did) is a good first step.  

My DD is one of the most well-behaved, responsible, and rule following kids I know (and her anxiety and desire to people-please plays into that).  Before she hit puberty, I would have said she didn't have it in her to be defiant.  But when she is spiraling about something not going the way she expects it to and fixated on how upset she is, she can let loose with all the teen cliches like 'you don't understand me/my life!' and 'I hate you, you're ruining my life!'  and when asking her to do a simple task like clean her room, if it's at the wrong time, being met with something like 'it's too much!' 

These were definitely new for her.  It wasn't something we dealt with when she was a younger kid, so it had to be dealt with now.  It's not like you parent kids when they're little and then they've learned everything they need to know and you're done- parenting doesn't stop.  And from what I've heard from parents of kids my dd's age, this isn't uncommon (which is why I said SOME defiance is normal).  But how you address it will depend on parenting style, your relationship with your kids, and the severity of what your kid is dealing with.

For my DD, we do therapy, anxiety meds, and ignoring outbursts in the moment (because addressing it at that point doesn't work) but instead giving her time to calm down using methods we've gone over in therapy, and then addressing it (and to be honest, my DD hits a phase of 'omg I can't believe I said that to you, I'm so sorry, I'm the worst' that needs to then be addressed as well).  

My DS, who is older and doesn't have anxiety, gets an immediate response and/or consequence if he tries to 'mouth off' to an adult, but that doesn't happen often with him.  He is more likely to say OK to anything you ask him to do, and then just ignore/forget what you said immediately, which is its own issue that we address with him.  

OP, I'm glad you have a plan in place to start moving forward.  

[almostfamous]

Oct 1, 2024 13:43:14 GMT -6 McBenny said:

Sept 23, 2024 9:31:54 GMT -6 roselab said:

I think some amount of defiance in teens is normal, because kids that age are full of emotions they have trouble expressing in appropriate ways, 

I think this is an excuse used when people don't know what else to say. People say this about biting toddlers. By the time they are a teen they should know how to communicate their wants, needs, and emotions with you. Like seriously, that ship should have sailed long ago. 

This is so closed minded and feels very judgy. The most well behaved and respectful child raised by good parents can turn into a snot nosed teen. And I will make excuses for it...raging hormones, a changing body, new insecurities, exposure to drugs and alcohol, huge increase in school workload (ime), negative influences from social media, newfound anxiety and depression, etc. We can't expect children to turn into adults seamlessly. While we shouldn't allow ourselves as parents to be punching bags, we should absolutely expect a little backlash, rebellion and attitude. And it IS normal. And not a reflection of failed parenting.

[McBenny]

Oct 2, 2024 6:01:19 GMT -6 roselab said:

Oct 1, 2024 13:43:14 GMT -6 McBenny said:

I think this is an excuse used when people don't know what else to say. People say this about biting toddlers. By the time they are a teen they should know how to communicate their wants, needs, and emotions with you. Like seriously, that ship should have sailed long ago. 

I wasn't saying it was acceptable.  I was saying that some teens experience new and different emotions as they make the transition from childhood to young adulthood, and they might struggle with how to deal with and express those emotions.  As a parent, it's your job to teach them appropriate ways to cope, and if you need help doing that, then seeking out therapy of some sort (like the OP did) is a good first step.  

My DD is one of the most well-behaved, responsible, and rule following kids I know (and her anxiety and desire to people-please plays into that).  Before she hit puberty, I would have said she didn't have it in her to be defiant.  But when she is spiraling about something not going the way she expects it to and fixated on how upset she is, she can let loose with all the teen cliches like 'you don't understand me/my life!' and 'I hate you, you're ruining my life!'  and when asking her to do a simple task like clean her room, if it's at the wrong time, being met with something like 'it's too much!' 

These were definitely new for her.  It wasn't something we dealt with when she was a younger kid, so it had to be dealt with now.  It's not like you parent kids when they're little and then they've learned everything they need to know and you're done- parenting doesn't stop.  And from what I've heard from parents of kids my dd's age, this isn't uncommon (which is why I said SOME defiance is normal).  But how you address it will depend on parenting style, your relationship with your kids, and the severity of what your kid is dealing with.

For my DD, we do therapy, anxiety meds, and ignoring outbursts in the moment (because addressing it at that point doesn't work) but instead giving her time to calm down using methods we've gone over in therapy, and then addressing it (and to be honest, my DD hits a phase of 'omg I can't believe I said that to you, I'm so sorry, I'm the worst' that needs to then be addressed as well).  

My DS, who is older and doesn't have anxiety, gets an immediate response and/or consequence if he tries to 'mouth off' to an adult, but that doesn't happen often with him.  He is more likely to say OK to anything you ask him to do, and then just ignore/forget what you said immediately, which is its own issue that we address with him.  

OP, I'm glad you have a plan in place to start moving forward.  

Yes, I do agree with you that as a parent it is your job to teach them. I just think that lesson should have begun well before the teen years. 

That lesson would also consist of building a trust with your child. Being their safe place to fall. So, when emotions are all over the place there is no reason for you to lash out at mom. We are on the same team. Me, before anyone else. 

Teaching them to cope to me also means teaching them you don't get to be a dick cause your anxiety is unchecked. KWIM? Cause that is not how life works.

We just differ and won't agree in the how this is taught. I am not ignoring you having an outburst on me, ever. I did not entertain that when they were toddlers, and I am not entertaining it now. 

[McBenny]

Oct 2, 2024 10:14:26 GMT -6 almostfamous said:

Oct 1, 2024 13:43:14 GMT -6 McBenny said:

I think this is an excuse used when people don't know what else to say. People say this about biting toddlers. By the time they are a teen they should know how to communicate their wants, needs, and emotions with you. Like seriously, that ship should have sailed long ago. 

This is so closed minded and feels very judgy. The most well behaved and respectful child raised by good parents can turn into a snot nosed teen. And I will make excuses for it...raging hormones, a changing body, new insecurities, exposure to drugs and alcohol, huge increase in school workload (ime), negative influences from social media, newfound anxiety and depression, etc. We can't expect children to turn into adults seamlessly. While we shouldn't allow ourselves as parents to be punching bags, we should absolutely expect a little backlash, rebellion and attitude. And it IS normal. And not a reflection of failed parenting.

It is most definitely judgment. We don't agree and that's ok, we don't need to. That kind of behavior and language is not ok in our family. We don't get to treat people like shit because you are going through something. Teaching that should be first and foremost. Tapping into your tools and resources should happen before you talk to me like I am a dog in the street. 

If you hold that expectation for you and your family, that's your choice. A real expectation for me and mine is that you do not disrespect either of us, that's our choice. We don't handle our kids or talk to them no kind of way so it's not a leap that we would expect the same in return. 

While rebellion and defiance can be a norm for some. It is not in fact the norm for most. When you look at studies and stats it is actually way less than 1/3 of teens that go that route. That's not to say throw them all away or anything. Just saying most teens do not rebel. What IS actually normal as you put it, is not that. Just saying.