starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Aug 16, 2021 14:30:14 GMT -6
Fareed Sakaria has some good points IMO. I missed most of his comments moving from one room to another. What did he say that resonated with you most?
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Aug 16, 2021 14:31:16 GMT -6
Clarissa Ward seems to be in agreement with us. calls it a catastrophic disaster of a withdrawal. She's such an incredible journalist. I have been so worried about her the past few days. her reporting earlier about having to change her clothes and the men pushing her to a wall and refusing to talk to her makes me very scared for her
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Aug 16, 2021 14:38:53 GMT -6
I understand his reasoning that we can't ask Americans to stand up and fight and die for a country whose own people won't, but we have to own the consequences of our failures there and those failures extend to the same service members we asked to give life and limb for this mission that we now say was never the mission..... I'm just raging. Well I don't think nation building ever was the mission. It was retaliation for 9/11 and stopping another attack on US soil. Correct me if I'm wrong though
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Aug 16, 2021 14:39:35 GMT -6
Tapper with sobering but accurate commentary: I suppose it's possible, and I'm not advocating for this, that if no American's die during this withdrawal, a certain swath of Americans will be happy and won't care what happens to the Afghan people.
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Aug 16, 2021 14:40:56 GMT -6
and those failures extend to the same service members we asked to give life and limb for this mission that we now say was never the mission..... I'm just raging. Well I don't think nation building ever was the mission. It was retaliation for 9/11 and stopping another attack on US soil. Correct me if I'm wrong though I always felt like once we got in there for our retaliation it was like "uhhh what now" and the way they felt they could prevent another attack was both through continuing the ground war and nation building because if we could just make them more like the US of course they would be grateful forever.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Aug 16, 2021 14:41:21 GMT -6
Tapper with sobering but accurate commentary: I suppose it's possible, and I'm not advocating for this, that if no American's die during this withdrawal, a certain swath of Americans will be happy and won't care what happens to the Afghan people. thats why Dana kept using domestic consumption I think. Because the general public gives no fucks about whats going to happen as long as we dont lose lives.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Aug 16, 2021 14:41:49 GMT -6
Tapper with sobering but accurate commentary: I suppose it's possible, and I'm not advocating for this, that if no American's die during this withdrawal, a certain swath of Americans will be happy and won't care what happens to the Afghan people. That is really, really gross but he's probably not wrong.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Aug 16, 2021 14:42:10 GMT -6
Well I don't think nation building ever was the mission. It was retaliation for 9/11 and stopping another attack on US soil. Correct me if I'm wrong though I always felt like once we got in there for our retaliation it was like "uhhh what now" and the way they felt they could prevent another attack was both through continuing the ground war and nation building because if we could just make them more like the US of course they would be grateful forever. Or continuing to limit the reach of the Taliban
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Aug 16, 2021 14:42:39 GMT -6
This is very unsettling. I am not feeling any better about any of this whatsoever. Be kind to yourself. I'm thinking of you.
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Post by blurnette989 on Aug 16, 2021 14:43:35 GMT -6
and those failures extend to the same service members we asked to give life and limb for this mission that we now say was never the mission..... I'm just raging. Well I don't think nation building ever was the mission. It was retaliation for 9/11 and stopping another attack on US soil. Correct me if I'm wrong though But to say that spreading democracy and creating stability was never touted as why we were still there seems disingenuous.
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Post by greykitty on Aug 16, 2021 14:45:05 GMT -6
Fareed Sakaria has some good points IMO. I missed most of his comments moving from one room to another. What did he say that resonated with you most? For me, the context he supplied to the realities of the hard decisions that had to be made, the actual realities of what was happening< both years ago and now, and what the intent of the speech was. I keep thinking what could the President, or anyone, have been expected to say - realistically. And who knows what's happening behind the scenes. This is maybe the time I hate the entire 24/7 news cycle and people leaping to analysis without even taking 30 seconds to review speeches or actions the most. I don't exempt myself here either. And who knows what else is happening behind the scenes.
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jkjacq
Ruby
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Post by jkjacq on Aug 16, 2021 14:46:29 GMT -6
We were absolutely there to nation build. its semantics at this point. that may have not have been the 'mission' but its what we were doing.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Aug 16, 2021 14:47:49 GMT -6
Foreign policy is not my lane, but I always hoped they were pulling people out there all along but just doing it quietly for OpSec purposes. That does not appear to be the case.
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Aug 16, 2021 14:49:25 GMT -6
The Pentagon briefing is going into greater detail about evacuations and SIVs. They are looking at a few sites and want to set up capacity for 22k.
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Aug 16, 2021 14:49:56 GMT -6
I keep thinking about the women and girls. Some young women have never lived under the Taliban. They've been educated and working. And now...
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beatch
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Post by beatch on Aug 16, 2021 14:51:35 GMT -6
I really didn't like the tone of blaming the Afghans. I wish we had more insight into the decision and evacuation. It feels sudden but must have been in the works for awhile.
I would definitely be interested in more military perspectives. The cost of sending more Americans there is incredibly unpopular. There was no longer public support but that doesn't make this any less devastating.
And fuck GWB.
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Aug 16, 2021 14:54:52 GMT -6
It looks like if you are not in Kabul you are fucked.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Aug 16, 2021 14:55:25 GMT -6
that was a good question about protecting women who served special forces and the taliban entering their houses.
word salad answer but good question.
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Aug 16, 2021 14:56:10 GMT -6
Barbara Starr to Pentagon: stop saying you planned for everything. You didn't fucking plan for this we've all seen the scenes at the airport. So tell me about more your failure to plan here.
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Post by notexactly on Aug 16, 2021 14:56:57 GMT -6
This is very unsettling. I am not feeling any better about any of this whatsoever. Be kind to yourself. I'm thinking of you. Thanks. 💛 I don't mean to center myself at all; I know everyone in here finds it very upsetting, too. It's just like...what is next? How much worse can it get?
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Post by crimsonandclover on Aug 16, 2021 14:57:42 GMT -6
Ok, this nation-building debate is directly in my area of expertise. The UN-mandated NATO mission ISAF (later RSM) did have a focus on the security sector but it was deliberately set up to complement the UN mission there, UNAMA, and UNAMA's mission was a 100% nation-building one: unama.unmissions.org/mission-statementSo if you want to get super technical about it, the US was involved in the NATO mission and that was to train and assist Afghan security forces and not nation-building per se. But it is totally disingenuous to claim that nation-building wasn't the goal, because of course the US played the leading role in determining UNAMA's mission, delegating the 'softer' nation-building areas to it.
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jkjacq
Ruby
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Post by jkjacq on Aug 16, 2021 14:58:10 GMT -6
Be kind to yourself. I'm thinking of you. Thanks. 💛 I don't mean to center myself at all; I know everyone in here finds it very upsetting, too. It's just like...what is next? How much worse can it get?
I think I speak for most of us that you can use this space however you want at the moment. We're all here to support you (and each other) however needed.
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Aug 16, 2021 14:58:45 GMT -6
Barbara Starr to Pentagon: stop saying you planned for everything. You didn't fucking plan for this we've all seen the scenes at the airport. So tell me about more your failure to plan here. The answer, from John Kirby: we planned for evacuation at this airport! Look how quick we called up 6k troops! It's not perfect but we got this! Barbara: was one of your scenarios a complete take over of Kabul by the Taliban? Kirby: oh we planned. But didn't plan for how quickly Afghan forces capitulated
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Post by greykitty on Aug 16, 2021 14:59:51 GMT -6
Cliche, but true. Plans don't always survive first contact. And how awful it is to think that we should have planned that that Afghani military, and men, failing to apparently even try to protect their own mothers, wives, sisters, daughters was the most possible of all alternatives.
I don't think it's unfair to come to that realization.
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Post by blurnette989 on Aug 16, 2021 15:00:00 GMT -6
Barbara Starr to Pentagon: stop saying you planned for everything. You didn't fucking plan for this we've all seen the scenes at the airport. So tell me about more your failure to plan here. Yeah what's the old adage? Proper planning prevents piss poor performance?
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Post by blurnette989 on Aug 16, 2021 15:02:50 GMT -6
Cliche, but true. Plans don't always survive first contact. And how awful it is to think that we should have planned that that Afghani military, and men, failing to apparently even try to protect their own mothers, wives, sisters, daughters was the most possible of all alternatives. I don't think it's unfair to come to that realization. . Are you serious Clarke? Or perhaps those Afghani military and men wanted to ensure that their mothers wives and sisters and daughters had sons, husbands, brothers and fathers to even see again. We abandoned them. And yes their president also abandoned them, but when that was done. Those men knew there was nothing to fight for but their own lives. This is gross.
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Aug 16, 2021 15:03:52 GMT -6
Cliche, but true. Plans don't always survive first contact. And how awful it is to think that we should have planned that that Afghani military, and men, failing to apparently even try to protect their own mothers, wives, sisters, daughters was the most possible of all alternatives. I don't think it's unfair to come to that realization. I am absolutely surprised there wasn't much resistance to the Taliban sweeping the country, but I still think it is fair to criticize that we were not more aggressively getting people the fuck out of there, particularly the SIVs. I mean we were supposed to be out by end of August. That's 2 weeks. Most of our allies should have been out by now. Instead, we're in this mess.
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Aug 16, 2021 15:08:15 GMT -6
There's a female Afghan reporter talking to the Pentagon in the briefing. She's in tears.
"Where is my President?"
Afghans don't know what to do. Women have enjoyed success and now we have lost everything. Where is my President? Why isn't he speaking for his people?
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Post by greykitty on Aug 16, 2021 15:08:40 GMT -6
I agree that it would have been terrific to be secretly moving allies out of the country in a methodical fashion. I now wonder if any such US plans would have been provided to the Taliban, though, by Ghani and his administration even as they would have been put into play.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Aug 16, 2021 15:10:07 GMT -6
The exterior of Afghanistan has been falling to the Taliban for a couple of weeks now. It was obvious they were going to advance on the capitol.
the failure to accelerate withdrawal of our allies and our citizens in the past 3 weeks is most definitely on the US.
also this reporter just broke my heart with her question. Shes an Afghani reporter.
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