richard
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Post by richard on Aug 16, 2021 16:08:52 GMT -6
I really didn't like the tone of blaming the Afghans. I wish we had more insight into the decision and evacuation. It feels sudden but must have been in the works for awhile. I would definitely be interested in more military perspectives. The cost of sending more Americans there is incredibly unpopular. There was no longer public support but that doesn't make this any less devastating. And fuck GWB. I think he fucked up by not distinguishing between Afghan leadership and Afghan people. Like, yes, it's true that the military's collapse was due to mass desertions...because they have families and historically have little to no trust in the country's government. I don't think 6 more months would've changed the result for the vast majority of people in the country but it could've protected US-allied refugees by getting them out. The fact that it wasn't done is the biggest fuck-up for me. Like even if our refugee system was completely upside-down and hallowed out due to the Trump administration, why are you just now negotiating with other countries for places for them to go? TBH, I also wonder about how much the deadline not moving had to do with the 20th anniversary of 9/11.
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Post by coffeeino on Aug 16, 2021 16:09:04 GMT -6
coffeeino i think those are fair questions. And i think the pointany of here are making is that we don't disagree with withdrawal, but it clearly wasn't well planned. We shouldn't have taken troops out to only have to swell numbers back to 6,000 troops to get our own people out safely. As the daughter of a veteran from a combat zone, i do understand the horrors and trauma that our service people can go through. It feels shitty that our current administration didn't make sure we did the withdrawal in a way that would protect the most lives, both US military and civilian (both US and other). It feels like he is being arrogant and not actually thinking of the safety of our troops. And no worries i don't expect an answer, but berating Biden and not expressly discussing the traumas of US forces in these situations doesn't mean we think risking more military lives is the answer either. Replied before I saw. I know you guys donβt think thatβs the answer. I really do. I donβt feel that at all. Emotions are high and Iβm just coming at it with a different perspective in the forefront. And just wanted to offer a different viewpoint. They did have troops prepositioned in case of this happening. As remote as they thought the need would be. Obviously incorrectly. There are always troops on standby at literally all times to deploy within 18 hours to anywhere in the world. For situations such as this. I wish they werenβt needed and the planning shouldβve been adequate enough to make the current situation not happen. I truly think everyone thought the Afghan military wouldβve fought. At least to slow them down. But I am not near important enough to be privy to that information!
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Post by coffeeino on Aug 16, 2021 16:10:03 GMT -6
Thank you. I appreciate the validation. It truly does help. Just maybe (for the general everyone) when talking about this situation please remember the other side of this and the people around you that are suffering at home. They are not okay today. Even with this thread as an example- nobody talks about the flip side of the people who are supposed to stay and sacrifice with no end in sight. The 2300+ people who never came home and left behind a wake of loss that never ends. Not saying you arenβt because you are all obviously incredibly caring and aware people. Just a PSA from a tired military spouse. Not to take away from the sheer devastation over there. Seems to be plenty of heartbreak to go around in this world today. To be fair, there has been discussion about veterans and service families. I mentioned it as did cnf, specifically. Valid point. I admit to probably not reading everything closely and likely missed things.
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richard
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Post by richard on Aug 16, 2021 16:11:35 GMT -6
Ok, this nation-building debate is directly in my area of expertise. The UN-mandated NATO mission ISAF (later RSM) did have a focus on the security sector but it was deliberately set up to complement the UN mission there, UNAMA, and UNAMA's mission was a 100% nation-building one: unama.unmissions.org/mission-statementSo if you want to get super technical about it, the US was involved in the NATO mission and that was to train and assist Afghan security forces and not nation-building per se. But it is totally disingenuous to claim that nation-building wasn't the goal, because of course the US played the leading role in determining UNAMA's mission, delegating the 'softer' nation-building areas to it.
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Post by coffeeino on Aug 16, 2021 16:14:40 GMT -6
Also the interpreter who worked with my husband had to work for years to get a visa to get to the US. He had to have my husband write multiple letters and help him even with proof of direct threats to himself and his family. That is so fucked. An absolute failure of the government.
Also the people who directly voted against issuing them visas recently going on Twitter and criticizing the situation now are rage inducing.
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jkjacq
Ruby
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Post by jkjacq on Aug 16, 2021 16:15:08 GMT -6
coffeeino i think those are fair questions. And i think the pointany of here are making is that we don't disagree with withdrawal, but it clearly wasn't well planned. We shouldn't have taken troops out to only have to swell numbers back to 6,000 troops to get our own people out safely. As the daughter of a veteran from a combat zone, i do understand the horrors and trauma that our service people can go through. It feels shitty that our current administration didn't make sure we did the withdrawal in a way that would protect the most lives, both US military and civilian (both US and other). It feels like he is being arrogant and not actually thinking of the safety of our troops. And no worries i don't expect an answer, but berating Biden and not expressly discussing the traumas of US forces in these situations doesn't mean we think risking more military lives is the answer either. Replied before I saw. I know you guys donβt think thatβs the answer. I really do. I donβt feel that at all. Emotions are high and Iβm just coming at it with a different perspective in the forefront. And just wanted to offer a different viewpoint. They did have troops prepositioned in case of this happening. As remote as they thought the need would be. Obviously incorrectly. There are always troops on standby at literally all times to deploy within 18 hours to anywhere in the world. For situations such as this. I wish they werenβt needed and the planning shouldβve been adequate enough to make the current situation not happen. I truly think everyone thought the Afghan military wouldβve fought. At least to slow them down. But I am not near important enough to be privy to that information! We appreciate your voice in here as well. I know it looks like we were hyper focusing on only the Afghani people but I truly think that isnt the case. We failed on so many levels that its gonna take some time for us to get through it all. Please take care of you and your family and know that my thoughts are with you and yours.
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Post by crimsonandclover on Aug 16, 2021 16:16:27 GMT -6
I just remembered a discussion I was in once with a former high-up officer in the German military that might be interesting in the context of this discussion. He was talking about the numbers of troops in Kosovo vs Afghanistan. The missions were very similar, and both were also combined NATO/UN missions, but Kosovo had like 200x the density of troops to territory compared to Afghanistan. He said if we wanted to get Afghanistan as stable as Kosovo (which isn't perfect but definitely ok), we would need 200x the troops currently there, and this was at a time when there were around 16000 NATO troops there already. So he was basically saying that it would take 3 million troops to stabilize Afghanistan sustainably. Don't quote me on those exact numbers, but the dimensions are right.
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richard
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Post by richard on Aug 16, 2021 16:19:31 GMT -6
Also the interpreter who worked with my husband had to work for years to get a visa to get to the US. He had to have my husband write multiple letters and help him even with proof of direct threats to himself and his family. That is so fucked. An absolute failure of the government. Also the people who directly voted against issuing them visas recently going on Twitter and criticizing the situation now are rage inducing. I'm so sorry. Personally, I honestly don't think the failure here is a military one. I think it's a bureaucratic one re: refugees and visas. Those were never going to help anything but a sliver of the population, but it's a sliver of the population that we owe much to. And we fucked it.
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richard
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Post by richard on Aug 16, 2021 16:21:47 GMT -6
Today's really been a Jonah day for me on many, many fronts. And I think we're out of beer.
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Post by coffeeino on Aug 16, 2021 16:24:53 GMT -6
Also the interpreter who worked with my husband had to work for years to get a visa to get to the US. He had to have my husband write multiple letters and help him even with proof of direct threats to himself and his family. That is so fucked. An absolute failure of the government. Also the people who directly voted against issuing them visas recently going on Twitter and criticizing the situation now are rage inducing. I'm so sorry. Personally, I honestly don't think the failure here is a military one. I think it's a bureaucratic one re: refugees and visas. Those were never going to help anything but a sliver of the population, but it's a sliver of the population that we owe much to. And we fucked it. It really is. I have seen many posts on military members pages today of Afghans who helped them asking them for help to get them out. On Facebook. Awful.
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Ls2012
Amethyst
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Post by Ls2012 on Aug 16, 2021 16:26:02 GMT -6
Just adding this here as the discussion continues.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Aug 16, 2021 16:28:20 GMT -6
To be fair, there has been discussion about veterans and service families. I mentioned it as did cnf, specifically. Valid point. I admit to probably not reading everything closely and likely missed things. Nobody is required to read every post! I was only trying to point out that we share your concerns. I could have worded that better.
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Post by coffeeino on Aug 16, 2021 16:28:32 GMT -6
Iβve also seen many service members writing about how the hope for a better life they gave the women and children by fighting for the past 20 years was something they were holding on to. That they gave them a chance to know better was out there for them. Even if it is tragically being destroyed at the moment. So maybe if you do see someone struggling that could be a life-raft for them too.
Obviously I have a lot of thoughts needing to escape!
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mathrun
Gold
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Post by mathrun on Aug 16, 2021 16:33:17 GMT -6
Ben Sasse is making sense and being an ass at the same time. So basically the status quo for him then. βΉοΈ
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Post by crimsonandclover on Aug 16, 2021 16:34:13 GMT -6
Iβve also seen many service members writing about how the hope for a better life they gave the women and children by fighting for the past 20 years was something they were holding on to. That they gave them a chance to know better was out there for them. Even if it is tragically being destroyed at the moment. So maybe if you do see someone struggling that could be a life-raft for them too. Obviously I have a lot of thoughts needing to escape! This is absolutely true. As pointed out upthread, there is now an entire generation of women who have grown up being educated and working. They are not going to be happy about being forced back into roles from before. There is hope that change will come, but it will have to come from within.
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Post by crimsonandclover on Aug 16, 2021 16:37:44 GMT -6
And I just heard on the news that the Kabul airport has opened again and planes are landing, filling up with people, and leaving again to make up for lost time. So hopefully, hopefully we can still save a lot of lives in the next few days.
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willow
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Post by willow on Aug 16, 2021 16:53:08 GMT -6
I absolutely have been thinking of the service members who have returned home and how all of this affects what is already an incredibly difficult and painful post-tour life. I can only imagine how demoralizing it is for them. And notexactly you donβt need to apologize for centering yourself. I am sure this is all super triggering for you so I hope youβre able to find time to get some internal peace as well. Thinking of you.
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richard
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Post by richard on Aug 16, 2021 17:19:34 GMT -6
This article pretty much hits the nail on the head for me:
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addymac
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Post by addymac on Aug 16, 2021 18:07:13 GMT -6
Because we all probably feel like we need to do something... the International Rescue Committee (IRC) is an organization that directly works with refugees (they resettled my family here), and they have an appeal going on right now to donate to help the Afghans. I know donating is not going to reach the people over there immediately, but it's definitely something to consider if you feel like you want to help in any way. The IRC also has a list of offices on their website where people can find volunteer opportunities. Thank you for this. Just donated because itβs one of the few things I can do right now. π
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Post by unheardof on Aug 16, 2021 18:49:07 GMT -6
Idk, I donβt think the plan was to leave these people behind, the interpreters, etc who wanted to leave. I just think they thought they had more time and thatβs why there wasnβt a rush to get people out. I think they anticipated the Afghan people they trained to continue the work the American troops were doing, and that the Taliban would remain quiet longer. Sunday changed it all in a way they didnβt anticipate.
I appreciate that heβs acting quickly and sending more troops to try and save the people that we can though. Maybe Iβm just being naive in believing that or maybe I just need to believe that to wrap my mind around it. Itβs all so overwhelming and heartbreaking.
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origami
Amethyst
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Post by origami on Aug 16, 2021 19:01:34 GMT -6
I really like this take. They are a former combat medic who is very lefty but also very conflicted and talks about the complexities of all of this. vm.tiktok.com/ZMR8jjHA1/I do feel like it veers (mostly twitter but some here and other places) very close to making a bad guy out of our military. I know (I KNOW) that's not the intention here, but emotions are high and sometimes I think some takes miss the nuance and sheer complexity of this situation (again, mostly on Twitter but I've seen us, myself included, flirt with the line). And I'm very anti imperialism, but no one who actually fought chose to go. And our fucked up lack of any social safety net swells our ranks with kids with few options. It would be heartbreaking if this turned into another Vietnam with the way those vets were vilified for things outside of their control. Deep thoughts while I wait outside karate.
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richard
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Post by richard on Aug 16, 2021 19:14:12 GMT -6
Idk, I donβt think the plan was to leave these people behind, the interpreters, etc who wanted to leave. I just think they thought they had more time and thatβs why there wasnβt a rush to get people out. I think they anticipated the Afghan people they trained to continue the work the American troops were doing, and that the Taliban would remain quiet longer. Sunday changed it all in a way they didnβt anticipate. I appreciate that heβs acting quickly and sending more troops to try and save the people that we can though. Maybe Iβm just being naive in believing that or maybe I just need to believe that to wrap my mind around it. Itβs all so overwhelming and heartbreaking. I am no expert but what I've read is that essentially the options are the regular visa which takes on average 800 days to obtain or this new option that they added in early August that requires people to leave Afghanistan to be able to apply for and also takes a year or more (and that the easiest place to leave to is Iran where there is no US diplomatic presence). Those don't seem like great options even if it took 6 months for the Taliban to gain control like they were thinking back in June.
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richard
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Post by richard on Aug 16, 2021 19:18:03 GMT -6
This at least shows some insight and empathy.
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klw
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Post by klw on Aug 16, 2021 20:06:59 GMT -6
CNNs response to Cruz. π
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clucky
Opal
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Post by clucky on Aug 16, 2021 20:15:44 GMT -6
My thoughts are so scrambled right now, which mainly land in frustrated & helpless.
Edit to spoiler. I also realize this is happening in every city and town across more than this country.
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clucky
Opal
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Post by clucky on Aug 16, 2021 20:17:18 GMT -6
Ben Sasse is making sense and being an ass at the same time. Him and his stupid face with pursed lips. I was actually surprised to see him out speaking up.
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Post by blurnette989 on Aug 16, 2021 20:21:53 GMT -6
I really like this take. They are a former combat medic who is very lefty but also very conflicted and talks about the complexities of all of this. vm.tiktok.com/ZMR8jjHA1/I do feel like it veers (mostly twitter but some here and other places) very close to making a bad guy out of our military. I know (I KNOW) that's not the intention here, but emotions are high and sometimes I think some takes miss the nuance and sheer complexity of this situation (again, mostly on Twitter but I've seen us, myself included, flirt with the line). And I'm very anti imperialism, but no one who actually fought chose to go. And our fucked up lack of any social safety net swells our ranks with kids with few options. It would be heartbreaking if this turned into another Vietnam with the way those vets were vilified for things outside of their control. Deep thoughts while I wait outside karate. I also think it's very important to separate the military from the military leadership. The leadership over the last 20 years is responsible for all those missteps, not the general rank and file.
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mc13
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Post by mc13 on Aug 17, 2021 5:33:05 GMT -6
This at least shows some insight and empathy. I saw your post and asked MH if he got this email and he said no. So I asked him to look again and he said βOh yeah, itβs here I just deleted it without reading it.β π€¦π»ββοΈπ€¦π»ββοΈ
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dc2london
Admin
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Post by dc2london on Aug 17, 2021 6:53:19 GMT -6
It's very telling to me that there seems to be wall to wall MSM coverage about Afghanistan and very little on Haiti
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jkjacq
Ruby
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Post by jkjacq on Aug 17, 2021 7:01:18 GMT -6
It's very telling to me that there seems to be wall to wall MSM coverage about Afghanistan and very little on Haiti CNN had about a 6 minute spot earlier. talking about how they cant get into a lot of places because roads are blocked and they are having trouble getting people medical attention. Its very tragic.
But yes, I agree that 7000 people who might be injured/dead should warrant more than six minutes
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