dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Aug 16, 2021 15:10:46 GMT -6
Cliche, but true. Plans don't always survive first contact. And how awful it is to think that we should have planned that that Afghani military, and men, failing to apparently even try to protect their own mothers, wives, sisters, daughters was the most possible of all alternatives. I don't think it's unfair to come to that realization. Whhhooooaaaaa again, I'm not trying to be a keyboard warrior outside my lane, but this does not remotely align with what I've been reading about the situation. The Afghan army were often hundreds of miles away from their families, with unreliable access to money, fuel and food.As the Taliban took over .ore and more of the cou try, some of these men probably had to choose between being with their wives and daughters or being hundreds of miles away, possibly dying, while their wives and daughters risk horrific treatment. I don't think simple 'desertion' is what's at play here at all
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clucky
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Post by clucky on Aug 16, 2021 15:10:50 GMT -6
Thanks for recapping Biden everyone. I appreciate it.
Okay, this Kirby guy is saying that he understands this Afghan woman reporter’s concern and hurt. No.
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Aug 16, 2021 15:12:36 GMT -6
I agree that it would have been terrific to be secretly moving allies out of the country in a methodical fashion. I now wonder if any such US plans would have been provided to the Taliban, though, by Ghani and his administration even as they would have been put into play. This is wild speculation. Woooow
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Aug 16, 2021 15:12:58 GMT -6
Nicolle Wallace is tripping all over herself to make excuses for Biden which doesn't at all surprise me
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Aug 16, 2021 15:14:25 GMT -6
I am perplexed at how proud they are at having control of the airspace/airport.
Great IF you can get to the airport. how they gonna get those people TO an actual aircraft absent armed tanks rolling down the street
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Post by notexactly on Aug 16, 2021 15:16:01 GMT -6
Because we all probably feel like we need to do something... the International Rescue Committee (IRC) is an organization that directly works with refugees (they resettled my family here), and they have an appeal going on right now to donate to help the Afghans. I know donating is not going to reach the people over there immediately, but it's definitely something to consider if you feel like you want to help in any way. The IRC also has a list of offices on their website where people can find volunteer opportunities.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Aug 16, 2021 15:16:56 GMT -6
I am perplexed at how proud they are at having control of the airspace/airport.
Great IF you can get to the airport. how they gonna get those people TO an actual aircraft absent armed tanks rolling down the street
People have been trying to get to Kabul for weeks, knowing that they could be left for dead
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clucky
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Post by clucky on Aug 16, 2021 15:18:46 GMT -6
Ok, this nation-building debate is directly in my area of expertise. The UN-mandated NATO mission ISAF (later RSM) did have a focus on the security sector but it was deliberately set up to complement the UN mission there, UNAMA, and UNAMA's mission was a 100% nation-building one: unama.unmissions.org/mission-statementSo if you want to get super technical about it, the US was involved in the NATO mission and that was to train and assist Afghan security forces and not nation-building per se. But it is totally disingenuous to claim that nation-building wasn't the goal, because of course the US played the leading role in determining UNAMA's mission, delegating the 'softer' nation-building areas to it. At the risk of sounding absurd, why is this all falling on the US and not the whole of the UN? Are we the last to leave? Or is it just that we had the largest presence? Yes, I googled, but things are popping up and I don’t want to spiral further today.
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Bookshelves
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Post by Bookshelves on Aug 16, 2021 15:19:08 GMT -6
PDQ -- Re. military perspectives: (Poofed some vaguely personal details) I'm not trying to center anyone over the Afghan people, who obviously deserve our attention and support right now. Just adding some perspective that these deployments had immense impacts and these are just two tiny examples.
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Post by treeofheaven on Aug 16, 2021 15:21:37 GMT -6
I keep thinking about the women and girls. Some young women have never lived under the Taliban. They've been educated and working. And now... I didn't even think of that. How terrifying.
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Ls2012
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Post by Ls2012 on Aug 16, 2021 15:26:25 GMT -6
Once, just once, I would like to see the persons in power to immediately own up to their fuck up when they do.
This is so upsetting.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Aug 16, 2021 15:26:31 GMT -6
Ok, this nation-building debate is directly in my area of expertise. The UN-mandated NATO mission ISAF (later RSM) did have a focus on the security sector but it was deliberately set up to complement the UN mission there, UNAMA, and UNAMA's mission was a 100% nation-building one: unama.unmissions.org/mission-statementSo if you want to get super technical about it, the US was involved in the NATO mission and that was to train and assist Afghan security forces and not nation-building per se. But it is totally disingenuous to claim that nation-building wasn't the goal, because of course the US played the leading role in determining UNAMA's mission, delegating the 'softer' nation-building areas to it. At the risk of sounding absurd, why is this all falling on the US and not the whole of the UN? Are we the last to leave? Or is it just that we had the largest presence? Yes, I googled, but things are popping up and I don’t want to spiral further today. wellllllll we kinda started it. i mean its more than that but we definitely had the largest presence there and drug our NATO allies along for the ride.
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Aug 16, 2021 15:27:02 GMT -6
Not to make light of everything, but if Bob Woodward was wondering what his next book will be, this cluster fuck is it.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Aug 16, 2021 15:28:18 GMT -6
Not to make light of everything, but if Bob Woodward was wondering what his next book will be, this cluster fuck is it. Lol he just announced a new book with Robert Costa this afternoon
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Aug 16, 2021 15:28:53 GMT -6
Not to make light of everything, but if Bob Woodward was wondering what his next book will be, this cluster fuck is it. I heard something earlier he has another book coming out about trump admin (i think).
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Aug 16, 2021 15:29:18 GMT -6
Not to make light of everything, but if Bob Woodward was wondering what his next book will be, this cluster fuck is it. I heard something earlier he has another book coming out about trump admin (i think). Oh ya, and apparently he is bringing the dirt on Jan 6
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Post by crimsonandclover on Aug 16, 2021 15:30:25 GMT -6
Ok, this nation-building debate is directly in my area of expertise. The UN-mandated NATO mission ISAF (later RSM) did have a focus on the security sector but it was deliberately set up to complement the UN mission there, UNAMA, and UNAMA's mission was a 100% nation-building one: unama.unmissions.org/mission-statementSo if you want to get super technical about it, the US was involved in the NATO mission and that was to train and assist Afghan security forces and not nation-building per se. But it is totally disingenuous to claim that nation-building wasn't the goal, because of course the US played the leading role in determining UNAMA's mission, delegating the 'softer' nation-building areas to it. At the risk of sounding absurd, why is this all falling on the US and not the whole of the UN? Are we the last to leave? Or is it just that we had the largest presence? Yes, I googled, but things are popping up and I don’t want to spiral further today. The UN mission was kind of established to help "clean up the mess" or rather, the power vacuum, left after the US invasion, but it was still very much a US-supported mission (even though the US never sends troops as part of a UN mission, as they'd possibly be under the command of a foreign officer). So the Afghanistan missions, both NATO and UN, were more or less led /directed / supported by the US. What has happened and is happening in Afghanistan is due foremost to US policy and actions there. Of course other countries played a role, but the US is directly, and I would say primarily, responsible for what is going on right now.
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clucky
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Post by clucky on Aug 16, 2021 15:30:48 GMT -6
At the risk of sounding absurd, why is this all falling on the US and not the whole of the UN? Are we the last to leave? Or is it just that we had the largest presence? Yes, I googled, but things are popping up and I don’t want to spiral further today. wellllllll we kinda started it. i mean its more than that but we definitely had the largest presence there and drug our NATO allies along for the ride. So did we not only abandon the Afghan’s, but other countries too…in addition to our own people?
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Aug 16, 2021 15:33:20 GMT -6
wellllllll we kinda started it. i mean its more than that but we definitely had the largest presence there and drug our NATO allies along for the ride. So did we not only abandon the Afghan’s, but other countries too…in addition to our own people? I think other countries have evac'd their people. I saw a snip earlier that Angela Merkel told her people to be ready to accept at least 10k refugees. so I dont know that they abandoned their people, they may have pulled most of them out when we started drawing troops earlier this year. NOT A FOREIGN POLICY EXPERT.
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Aug 16, 2021 15:33:34 GMT -6
wellllllll we kinda started it. i mean its more than that but we definitely had the largest presence there and drug our NATO allies along for the ride. So did we not only abandon the Afghan’s, but other countries too…in addition to our own people? Remember the Kurds. Not the first time, and I bet it won't be the last time.
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Post by crimsonandclover on Aug 16, 2021 15:37:08 GMT -6
wellllllll we kinda started it. i mean its more than that but we definitely had the largest presence there and drug our NATO allies along for the ride. So did we not only abandon the Afghan’s, but other countries too…in addition to our own people? Well, the other countries in the NATO mission were also planning to withdraw soon, I believe, and are now also launching missions to retrieve their troops and citizens still in the country, so I wouldn't say we're failing them. I just listened to the German news, and they're calling it a serious misjudgement on the part of the Americans - apparently we didn't consult with the NATO allies but just informed them, and they said the allies then also made a mistake in just accepting that and not questioning whether the plan was appropriate. The UN mission will likely continue in some fashion. It only has about 300 troops anyway.
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Post by coffeeino on Aug 16, 2021 15:46:49 GMT -6
I’m new but want to offer a military perspective. My husband is in the military and deployed during the height of the war. He has a Purple Heart and lost many friends in Afghanistan. Obviously this is something that is close to home.
It’s heartbreaking. Everyone who has served there is struggling. What was it all for? That’s the question being asked.
This is very personal and I’m a wreck and have walked away from this thread many times. The images are heartbreaking. I feel for the Afghan people. Truly. I’ve cried tears for their pain. So I’m not heartless.
But from my perspective: what more were we supposed to do? How many more friends do we need to lose? Both in combat and to suicide from the after struggles. How many more years of my children’s lives need to be lived without their father? What could more years change? I’m not willing to sacrifice more of our lives. Possibly his whole life ended.
I feel a way about how our military and veterans are being put in the back seat in many ways in this situation. Where are the discussions about their trauma? Their pain?
He spent so much time training the Afghanistan forces. If they aren’t willing to fight then why should it be us? I agree with what the president said. It can’t go on forever.
I don’t know the answer. My heart breaks for the women and children and this absolutely could’ve been handled better.
I might not answer because I need to stay away from the internet and help my husband somehow. Even though really nothing will help.
Sorry this is much a disjointed mess.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Aug 16, 2021 15:48:41 GMT -6
Ben Sasse is making sense and being an ass at the same time.
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Post by notexactly on Aug 16, 2021 15:49:07 GMT -6
Have you seen the picture showing the inside of the US plane? Ian Bremmer on Twitter/FB. Just wow.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Aug 16, 2021 15:52:04 GMT -6
I’m new but want to offer a military perspective. My husband is in the military and deployed during the height of the war. He has a Purple Heart and lost many friends in Afghanistan. Obviously this is something that is close to home. It’s heartbreaking. Everyone who has served there is struggling. What was it all for? That’s the question being asked. This is very personal and I’m a wreck and have walked away from this thread many times. The images are heartbreaking. I feel for the Afghan people. Truly. I’ve cried tears for their pain. So I’m not heartless. But from my perspective: what more were we supposed to do? How many more friends do we need to lose? Both in combat and to suicide from the after struggles. How many more years of my children’s lives need to be lived without their father? What could more years change? I’m not willing to sacrifice more of our lives. Possibly his whole life ended. I feel a way about how our military and veterans are being put in the back seat in many ways in this situation. Where are the discussions about their trauma? Their pain? He spent so much time training the Afghanistan forces. If they aren’t willing to fight then why should it be us? I agree with what the president said. It can’t go on forever. I don’t know the answer. My heart breaks for the women and children and this absolutely could’ve been handled better. I might not answer because I need to stay away from the internet and help my husband somehow. Even though really nothing will help. Sorry this is much a disjointed mess. Your concerns are real and valid. I don't want your spouse over there in danger, away from you and your children either. And I'm sorry that the withdrawal process has felt disrespectful toward your and your family's sacrifices.
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Post by blurnette989 on Aug 16, 2021 15:57:21 GMT -6
coffeeino i think those are fair questions. And i think the pointany of here are making is that we don't disagree with withdrawal, but it clearly wasn't well planned. We shouldn't have taken troops out to only have to swell numbers back to 6,000 troops to get our own people out safely. As the daughter of a veteran from a combat zone, i do understand the horrors and trauma that our service people can go through. It feels shitty that our current administration didn't make sure we did the withdrawal in a way that would protect the most lives, both US military and civilian (both US and other). It feels like he is being arrogant and not actually thinking of the safety of our troops. And no worries i don't expect an answer, but berating Biden and not expressly discussing the traumas of US forces in these situations doesn't mean we think risking more military lives is the answer either.
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Post by coffeeino on Aug 16, 2021 16:02:24 GMT -6
I’m new but want to offer a military perspective. My husband is in the military and deployed during the height of the war. He has a Purple Heart and lost many friends in Afghanistan. Obviously this is something that is close to home. It’s heartbreaking. Everyone who has served there is struggling. What was it all for? That’s the question being asked. This is very personal and I’m a wreck and have walked away from this thread many times. The images are heartbreaking. I feel for the Afghan people. Truly. I’ve cried tears for their pain. So I’m not heartless. But from my perspective: what more were we supposed to do? How many more friends do we need to lose? Both in combat and to suicide from the after struggles. How many more years of my children’s lives need to be lived without their father? What could more years change? I’m not willing to sacrifice more of our lives. Possibly his whole life ended. I feel a way about how our military and veterans are being put in the back seat in many ways in this situation. Where are the discussions about their trauma? Their pain? He spent so much time training the Afghanistan forces. If they aren’t willing to fight then why should it be us? I agree with what the president said. It can’t go on forever. I don’t know the answer. My heart breaks for the women and children and this absolutely could’ve been handled better. I might not answer because I need to stay away from the internet and help my husband somehow. Even though really nothing will help. Sorry this is much a disjointed mess. Your concerns are real and valid. I don't want your spouse over there in danger, away from you and your children either. And I'm sorry that the withdrawal process has felt disrespectful toward your and your family's sacrifices. Thank you. I appreciate the validation. It truly does help. Just maybe (for the general everyone) when talking about this situation please remember the other side of this and the people around you that are suffering at home. They are not okay today. Even with this thread as an example- nobody talks about the flip side of the people who are supposed to stay and sacrifice with no end in sight. The 2300+ people who never came home and left behind a wake of loss that never ends. Not saying you aren’t because you are all obviously incredibly caring and aware people. Just a PSA from a tired military spouse. Not to take away from the sheer devastation over there. Seems to be plenty of heartbreak to go around in this world today.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Aug 16, 2021 16:02:31 GMT -6
know whats nice about WFH? I can change the channel when Wolf comes on. its done wonders for my bp the past 2 weeks.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Aug 16, 2021 16:03:51 GMT -6
Your concerns are real and valid. I don't want your spouse over there in danger, away from you and your children either. And I'm sorry that the withdrawal process has felt disrespectful toward your and your family's sacrifices. Thank you. I appreciate the validation. It truly does help. Just maybe (for the general everyone) when talking about this situation please remember the other side of this and the people around you that are suffering at home. They are not okay today. Even with this thread as an example- nobody talks about the flip side of the people who are supposed to stay and sacrifice with no end in sight. The 2300+ people who never came home and left behind a wake of loss that never ends. Not saying you aren’t because you are all obviously incredibly caring and aware people. Just a PSA from a tired military spouse. Not to take away from the sheer devastation over there. Seems to be plenty of heartbreak to go around in this world today. To be fair, there has been discussion about veterans and service families. I mentioned it as did cnf, specifically.
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Post by crimsonandclover on Aug 16, 2021 16:08:51 GMT -6
Your concerns are real and valid. I don't want your spouse over there in danger, away from you and your children either. And I'm sorry that the withdrawal process has felt disrespectful toward your and your family's sacrifices. Thank you. I appreciate the validation. It truly does help. Just maybe (for the general everyone) when talking about this situation please remember the other side of this and the people around you that are suffering at home. They are not okay today. Even with this thread as an example- nobody talks about the flip side of the people who are supposed to stay and sacrifice with no end in sight. The 2300+ people who never came home and left behind a wake of loss that never ends. Not saying you aren’t because you are all obviously incredibly caring and aware people. Just a PSA from a tired military spouse. Not to take away from the sheer devastation over there. Seems to be plenty of heartbreak to go around in this world today. I'm so sorry, coffeeino. I tend to be rather analytical about this topic because it's what I studied and analyzed for years, so that's what I can bring to the table. In no way do I want to minimize the trauma and frustration US military members and families feel in this situation. I do not think we should stay there longer, I just wish our allies and their families could have been evacuated safely much earlier to avoid this chaos.
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