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Post by greykitty on Feb 26, 2020 10:36:16 GMT -6
I guess my idealistic dreamer ideal is that any politician/candidate - from the tiniest library board to the presidency of the US) could be evaluated on their ideas and ability to execute for all the people they represent. And that there no longer would be the need to worry about what they look like on the exterior. White men will never and have never had to worry about what they look like on the exterior because they are white. I wonder if Al Smith would agree. Or JFK in his presidential campaign. Of course, I will say JFK got a big bonus in looking young and energetic during that first televised debate. US history is fascinating.
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Post by ladybrienne on Feb 26, 2020 10:40:23 GMT -6
White men will never and have never had to worry about what they look like on the exterior because they are white. I wonder if Al Smith would agree. Or JFK in his presidential campaign. Of course, I will say JFK got a big bonus in looking young and energetic during that first televised debate. US history is fascinating. Are you honestly and confidently saying that they (white men) are held to the same standards as everyone else? Seriously asking.
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Feb 26, 2020 10:42:01 GMT -6
My family is all far right and they think I've gone crazy over the past 5 years as I've raced to the middle.
Here, I am not as left as most(?) and sometimes the comments (not made at me but in general) about moderates not getting it or being too incremental makes me feel like I'm too far right for this ecosystem.
Life in the middle is weird.
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athn64
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Post by athn64 on Feb 26, 2020 10:42:04 GMT -6
I was already feeling oddly defensive of our board/group after a comment yesterday in GD and now I feel like I am overthinking everything. I suppose I need to take a breather and a Xanax. What did they say this time? I don't GD, but I know they aren't all fans of us. ETA I see you've answered this already.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Feb 26, 2020 10:45:27 GMT -6
White men will never and have never had to worry about what they look like on the exterior because they are white. I wonder if Al Smith would agree. Or JFK in his presidential campaign. Of course, I will say JFK got a big bonus in looking young and energetic during that first televised debate. US history is fascinating. Whats the saying? FDR wouldn't have been elected if tv had been the means of news back in the day because we wouldn't have elected someone in a wheelchair?
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Post by greykitty on Feb 26, 2020 10:45:35 GMT -6
I wonder if Al Smith would agree. Or JFK in his presidential campaign. Of course, I will say JFK got a big bonus in looking young and energetic during that first televised debate. US history is fascinating. Are you honestly and confidently saying that they (white men) are held to the same standards as everyone else? Seriously asking. I'm saying that it seems overly simplistic to me to say 'all' white men have 'all' the advantages.
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Post by ladybrienne on Feb 26, 2020 10:45:48 GMT -6
My family is all far right and they think I've gone crazy over the past 5 years as I've raced to the middle. Here, I am not as left as most(?) and sometimes the comments (not made at me but in general) about moderates not getting it or being too incremental makes me feel like I'm too far right for this ecosystem. Life in the middle is weird. waves hello from same middle.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Feb 26, 2020 10:46:35 GMT -6
I would add, I'm pretty sure that we can see that Bernie and Joe got more coverage than Booker or Castro did from the onset of this cycle (and I would point out Joe hadnt even announced and was getting positive coverage). They certainly get more airtime than elizabeth, amy or even Kamala.
Mia made the comment last night about all the yelling and could you IMAGINE what this mornings news cycle would have looked like if that had been Liz & Amy instead of Bernie, Joe and Pete? Shrill and emotional are the top two words I can see being in the headlines. Instead it was a 'raucous', 'contentious' and 'lively'.
The playing field at this time is not level and until it is, I will sit with lets point out that a certain demographic is getting a whole lot more regardless of qualifications
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Feb 26, 2020 10:46:36 GMT -6
Honestly the comments that you were all alarmist weirdos drew me here. Like what are they saying that's so crazy on politics? I was curious.
And now you have to deal with me so take that as you will lol
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Feb 26, 2020 10:47:36 GMT -6
Honestly the comments that you were all alarmist weirdos drew me here. Like what are they saying that's so crazy on politics? I was curious. And now you have to deal with me so take that as you will lol Welcome to Hotel Politics, you can check out but you can never leave.
(because we'll find you and bring you back)
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dc2london
Admin
Press Secretary
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Post by dc2london on Feb 26, 2020 10:48:10 GMT -6
My family is all far right and they think I've gone crazy over the past 5 years as I've raced to the middle. Here, I am not as left as most(?) and sometimes the comments (not made at me but in general) about moderates not getting it or being too incremental makes me feel like I'm too far right for this ecosystem. Life in the middle is weird. I hear you. It's why I supported HRC over Bernie in 2016. Because I often favor incremental progress bc, in my view, it's more pragmatic.
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Post by greykitty on Feb 26, 2020 10:48:17 GMT -6
I wonder if Al Smith would agree. Or JFK in his presidential campaign. Of course, I will say JFK got a big bonus in looking young and energetic during that first televised debate. US history is fascinating. Whats the saying? FDR wouldn't have been elected if tv had been the means of news back in the day because we wouldn't have elected someone in a wheelchair?
Definitely, IMO - there was even controversy on the statue at the memorial in DC (ended with chair, covered by blanket, so not as evident - but more reflective of his appearance in real life). And, JFK wouldn't have been elected either, just for health concerns, let alone anything else, if the media was the same as today.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Feb 26, 2020 10:49:57 GMT -6
Are you honestly and confidently saying that they (white men) are held to the same standards as everyone else? Seriously asking. I'm saying that it seems overly simplistic to me to say 'all' white men have 'all' the advantages. They most certainly have a head start and yes that is an advantage.
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Post by ladybrienne on Feb 26, 2020 10:53:46 GMT -6
Are you honestly and confidently saying that they (white men) are held to the same standards as everyone else? Seriously asking. I'm saying that it seems overly simplistic to me to say 'all' white men have 'all' the advantages. I don't find it overly simplistic at all given who built our constructs, and who is still overwhelmingly in charge of said constructs. Agree to disagree I guess.
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Feb 26, 2020 10:54:12 GMT -6
Whats the saying? FDR wouldn't have been elected if tv had been the means of news back in the day because we wouldn't have elected someone in a wheelchair?
Definitely, IMO - there was even controversy on the statue at the memorial in DC (ended with chair, covered by blanket, so not as evident - but more reflective of his appearance in real life). And, JFK wouldn't have been elected either, just for health concerns, let alone anything else, if the media was the same as today.  Ok, but the chances of a man of color, much less a woman, in those days even having a viable candidacy was zero. So we're just talking about shades of privilege. JFK could have had a third arm grow out of his butt and give the Pope the finger and he would have handily won against any woman or person of color.
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Post by punker1212 on Feb 26, 2020 10:54:55 GMT -6
I’ll second this actually. It’s not easy for me to always stick around. I’m just 1. Stubborn AF and 2. Think I have a bit of a duty to demonstrate that bernie Bros are not the norm, they’re just grossly vocal. DC I really respect your ability to interact respectfully and I envy your ability to think critically about issues and statements. I think that while maybe I don’t agree with sweetpea’s managing of her perspective, I do get it, and it’s okay if that pushes us to think critically and strive for better. Agree with you, and I have enjoyed reading your perspective on issues. It works both ways! I’ve been so grateful for this group sharing different perspectives. It’s helped me be more critical of Sanders, even though I haven’t *yet* changed my vote. It’s taken me to a place of push harder where he is weak, something we should probably be striving for with all our elected officials. And ourselves.
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Post by blurnette989 on Feb 26, 2020 10:55:12 GMT -6
My family is all far right and they think I've gone crazy over the past 5 years as I've raced to the middle. Here, I am not as left as most(?) and sometimes the comments (not made at me but in general) about moderates not getting it or being too incremental makes me feel like I'm too far right for this ecosystem. Life in the middle is weird. It's cool I often feel too left! But honestly to the incremental point I think some of it is what we define individually as incremental. Incremental is subjective. In my mind we need to ask BIG so we are more like to move the needle a little bit more than if we started our negotiations further to the center. This is a big reason I believe that the center as a whole has shifted right. Because the GOP has effectively pushed us that way. I often see my desires as course correction, not so crazy.
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Post by greykitty on Feb 26, 2020 10:55:31 GMT -6
I'm saying that it seems overly simplistic to me to say 'all' white men have 'all' the advantages. They most certainly have a head start and yes that is an advantage. Again, just saying it seems 'wrong' to say any given candidate shouldn't be evaluated on their own merits. Although, doesn't this start to sound like the old civil service exam (is it still the same?) where you get 'points' for certain characteristics other than the skill set? Can be helpful as a supplement in choosing someone, I can see that.
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Post by ladybrienne on Feb 26, 2020 10:56:51 GMT -6
I feel like I am in an existential crisis a lot of the time. I am moderate truth be told, but there are times I feel progressive AF, and I don't know if it's the Trump admin making me feel that way or what. Lol. I am a big Warren fan, but not Bernie at all. I like Amy Klobuchar a lot, and while I have issues with Pete too, I still feel he would be a good POTUS and I hear him on a lot of issues too. I'd vote for Joe and not hold my nose but I wouldn't be thrilled.
I am right now in a state of "we need to get this guy out of office" so it makes my political leanings feel skewed at times. If that makes any logical sense.
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Feb 26, 2020 10:58:03 GMT -6
I feel like I am in an existential crisis a lot of the time. I am moderate truth be told, but there are times I feel progressive AF, and I don't know if it's the Trump admin making me feel that way or what. Lol. I am a big Warren fan, but not Bernie at all. I like Amy Klobuchar a lot, and while I have issues with Pete too, I still feel he would be a good POTUS and I hear him on a lot of issues too. I'd vote for Joe and not hold my nose but I wouldn't be thrilled. I am right now in a state of "we need to get this guy out of office" so it makes my political leanings feel skewed at times. If that makes any logical sense. Oh, I'm a disaster right now. I get you.
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Post by ladybrienne on Feb 26, 2020 10:58:30 GMT -6
It me
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Post by Uncaripswife on Feb 26, 2020 11:00:14 GMT -6
Honestly the comments that you were all alarmist weirdos drew me here. Like what are they saying that's so crazy on politics? I was curious. And now you have to deal with me so take that as you will lol I'm definitely a weirdo. I don't think I'm an alarmist, but I've been called worse. 😂 You and I had a little back and forth last night (and greykitty too) and I wanted to say I respect you both and value your posts. We don't have to agree on everything. I can admit to having aggressive and argumentative tendencies, and hope I didn't cross a line.
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Post by greykitty on Feb 26, 2020 11:02:51 GMT -6
Definitely, IMO - there was even controversy on the statue at the memorial in DC (ended with chair, covered by blanket, so not as evident - but more reflective of his appearance in real life). And, JFK wouldn't have been elected either, just for health concerns, let alone anything else, if the media was the same as today. Ok, but the chances of a man of color, much less a woman, in those days even having a viable candidacy was zero. So we're just talking about shades of privilege. JFK could have had a third arm grow out of his butt and give the Pope the finger and he would have handily won against any woman or person of color. Well, is it always 'fair' to judge past eras by the standards of today? I mean, that stirs up an entirely new kettle of fish, but as I get older, I've come to think that it's easy to throw stones and say why didn't all those people think as I do today, and not really see how things have changed - sometimes for the worse, but, I think, generally for the better. It was a huge political change that JFK won (thanks, Mayor Daley! LOL) - but from today's perspective many people would, as seems evident, only see a rich white guy. Well, he was - and more in many ways. And LBJ, as much as the very very young greykitty loathed him, probably set up, and implemented, more societal changes than most presidents before, and after, him. And how would he be seen as a candidate today? Times do change.
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Feb 26, 2020 11:04:42 GMT -6
It is fascinating to me that we have people of all leanings in here saying that at times we all feel fringe-y.
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Post by Uncaripswife on Feb 26, 2020 11:04:56 GMT -6
Ok, but the chances of a man of color, much less a woman, in those days even having a viable candidacy was zero. So we're just talking about shades of privilege. JFK could have had a third arm grow out of his butt and give the Pope the finger and he would have handily won against any woman or person of color. Well, is it always 'fair' to judge past eras by the standards of today? I mean, that stirs up an entirely new kettle of fish, but as I get older, I've come to think that it's easy to throw stones and say why didn't all those people think as I do today, and not really see how things have changed - sometimes for the worse, but, I think, generally for the better. It was a huge political change that JFK won (thanks, Mayor Daley! LOL) - but from today's perspective many people would, as seems evident, only see a rich white guy. Well, he was - and more in many ways. And LBJ, as much as the very very young greykitty loathed him, probably set up, and implemented, more societal changes than most presidents before, and after, him. And how would he be seen as a candidate today? Times do change. LBJ was both good and terrible. Great Society vs. Vietnam War.
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Feb 26, 2020 11:05:50 GMT -6
Honestly the comments that you were all alarmist weirdos drew me here. Like what are they saying that's so crazy on politics? I was curious. And now you have to deal with me so take that as you will lol I'm definitely a weirdo. I don't think I'm an alarmist, but I've been called worse. 😂 You and I had a little back and forth last night (and greykitty too) and I wanted to say I respect you both and value your posts. We don't have to agree on everything. I can admit to having aggressive and argumentative tendencies, and hope I didn't cross a line. And I can be stubborn and dismissive. We good.
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Post by greykitty on Feb 26, 2020 11:07:24 GMT -6
Well, is it always 'fair' to judge past eras by the standards of today? I mean, that stirs up an entirely new kettle of fish, but as I get older, I've come to think that it's easy to throw stones and say why didn't all those people think as I do today, and not really see how things have changed - sometimes for the worse, but, I think, generally for the better. It was a huge political change that JFK won (thanks, Mayor Daley! LOL) - but from today's perspective many people would, as seems evident, only see a rich white guy. Well, he was - and more in many ways. And LBJ, as much as the very very young greykitty loathed him, probably set up, and implemented, more societal changes than most presidents before, and after, him. And how would he be seen as a candidate today? Times do change. LBJ was both good and terrible. Great Society vs. Vietnam War.
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Post by greykitty on Feb 26, 2020 11:10:14 GMT -6
Well, is it always 'fair' to judge past eras by the standards of today? I mean, that stirs up an entirely new kettle of fish, but as I get older, I've come to think that it's easy to throw stones and say why didn't all those people think as I do today, and not really see how things have changed - sometimes for the worse, but, I think, generally for the better. It was a huge political change that JFK won (thanks, Mayor Daley! LOL) - but from today's perspective many people would, as seems evident, only see a rich white guy. Well, he was - and more in many ways. And LBJ, as much as the very very young greykitty loathed him, probably set up, and implemented, more societal changes than most presidents before, and after, him. And how would he be seen as a candidate today? Times do change. LBJ was both good and terrible. Great Society vs. Vietnam War. I often think that reading about the 1968 Democratic Convention should be required for anyone interested in politics. One of my first, very young age, political memories is literally dropping my turkey sandwich on my lap while my mom and I watched LBJ decline to run for reelection.
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Post by greykitty on Feb 26, 2020 11:23:06 GMT -6
ladybrienne, from chatting around me (blue district, blue senators), a lot of 'old' voters think both Biden and Sanders (and Warren for that matter) are on the pretty old to be running side. I myself said a long time ago that I wish Biden were 10-15 years younger. And, I've said more recently that Sanders should be pressed hard for his current health records, and his refusal seems Trumpian to me. I wasn't horrified by the shunt surgery - a lot of patients are in far better health post surgery than before. I am very suspicious about the refusal to provide records now, though.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Feb 26, 2020 11:25:19 GMT -6
Well, is it always 'fair' to judge past eras by the standards of today? I mean, that stirs up an entirely new kettle of fish, but as I get older, I've come to think that it's easy to throw stones and say why didn't all those people think as I do today, and not really see how things have changed - sometimes for the worse, but, I think, generally for the better.
I think we can look at history and say that was really fucked up and we need to change it and I dont think its throwing stones.
Changemakers worked within the systems they could, yes. The good doesnt excuse the bad imo. There were entire swaths of people who were literally not counted in those decisions. And the establishment has worked to keep those same people from participating today. Voter suppression, reproductive justice, etc.
We are so much more transparent today and its still not transparent enough.
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