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Post by enchanted on Sept 27, 2019 8:02:23 GMT -6
One thing I think people really miss when they point to Republicans eventually turning in Nixon is that Nixon didn't have multiple propaganda outlets spinning the wheels all day every day. When did the rule about fair and balanced news coverage stop? Because I'm trying to remember seeing something about how when we only had 3 stations, the news had to present a nonslanted story and it was an FCC rule?
Did I dream that?
The Fox News channel is listed as an entertainment channel, not news, which is one way they get around it. They're also on cable, not network, which I think means different rules. The big three network stations are still supposed to offer equal time.
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Minerva
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Post by Minerva on Sept 27, 2019 8:17:45 GMT -6
I'm not disagreeing with any of whats been said here.
And I think you really hit the nail with her privilege. But I can also see the division that started with the election (I know it was much earlier/deeper prior but as a starting point) will continue and widen the chasm with these proceedings. Most people dont see the whole picture. The trust that we've had in norms and institutions has really been broken.
As relieved as I am to finally get to this point, it IS a sad time in our history
One thing I think people really miss when they point to Republicans eventually turning in Nixon is that Nixon didn't have multiple propaganda outlets spinning the wheels all day every day. The propaganda machine is such a huge part of the problem. When you have 30% of voters buying in to xenophobic propaganda and another 15% willing to elect someone they recognize as an amoral lawbreaker in order to achieve political goals, it’s hard for a democratic government to actually function. I think impeachment is seen as a potential political tool to thwart democracy (as defined by the will of the voters) by a lot of people who I’d describe as apathetic moderates. I know consensus here is that Trump doesn’t have the will of the voters because he didn’t win the popular vote, but he did win the election under the current rules of our government. The Clinton impeachment and the constant calls by the extremes on both sides against Bush and Obama over the past few decades have contributed to current popular views on impeachment. I think Pelosi has to walk a very fine line to demonstrate the criminality and destructiveness of Trump’s actions without making impeachment seem like a personal vendetta in order to gain GOP support in the senate and popular support in purple and red states. And honestly, I think a lot of us on the progressive side of things do see impeachment as very personal and political. I know I do. I want him out before he hurts more of my friends and family with his terrible policies. Ukraine is just the latest reason I want him removed. And that emotion muddies the waters for Pelosi, whose goal is to actually remove Trump in a GOP controlled senate.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Sept 27, 2019 8:19:16 GMT -6
New: GOP Rep @kycomer tells me he believes WH use of a codeword-protected server for presidential phone records should be investigated by Congress.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Sept 27, 2019 8:25:27 GMT -6
As you know, I love me some Pelosi. But I agree she is wrong on this. I think she is speaking from a position of privilege when she says stuff like this. She is harkening back to some perceived good ole days of political civility and harmony in the country which never really existed for non-rich people of color. Now if she wants to make more of a legal or procedural argument that the ducks have to be in a row and double counted before you say the word, while I don’t entirely agree with that, I respect it more than this division nonsense. I'm not disagreeing with any of whats been said here.
And I think you really hit the nail with her privilege. But I can also see the division that started with the election (I know it was much earlier/deeper prior but as a starting point) will continue and widen the chasm with these proceedings. Most people dont see the whole picture. The trust that we've had in norms and institutions has really been broken.
As relieved as I am to finally get to this point, it IS a sad time in our history
I completely agree that it is very sad for our country. Impeachment should be rare and it really shouldn’t come to this. I think the sad part began way before he was even elected and now we have to clean up our mess through impeachment and voting.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Sept 27, 2019 9:08:58 GMT -6
Nice of them to just admit all the crimes in public, saves us some legwork
WH acknowledges for first time that the Ukraine transcript was filed in a separate classified system. WH official tells @pamelabrowncnn it was done under the direction of NSC attorneys. Source said: "NSC lawyers directed that the classified document be handled appropriately.”
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Sept 27, 2019 9:34:00 GMT -6
New: House Intel Cmte likely to call AG Barr, Rudy Giuliani and WH officials to testify in impeachment inquiry - @repmikequigley told me just now.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Sept 27, 2019 9:43:44 GMT -6
New: House Intel Cmte likely to call AG Barr, Rudy Giuliani and WH officials to testify in impeachment inquiry - @repmikequigley told me just now. They are saying Barr needs to recuse himself from anything related to Ukraine.
Im sitting over here buying a coat because hell will freeze over first.
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starbuck
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Post by starbuck on Sept 27, 2019 9:50:58 GMT -6
CNN reported that Pelosi has tapped Schiff to lead impeachment inquiry, focusing on Ukraine.
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sctiger
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Post by sctiger on Sept 27, 2019 9:51:26 GMT -6
I'm not disagreeing with any of whats been said here.
And I think you really hit the nail with her privilege. But I can also see the division that started with the election (I know it was much earlier/deeper prior but as a starting point) will continue and widen the chasm with these proceedings. Most people dont see the whole picture. The trust that we've had in norms and institutions has really been broken.
As relieved as I am to finally get to this point, it IS a sad time in our history
One thing I think people really miss when they point to Republicans eventually turning in Nixon is that Nixon didn't have multiple propaganda outlets spinning the wheels all day every day. For sure. It's so frustrating to see his supporters just not give a fuck and make excuses but they really do like in a bubble which furthers the narrative. In the Nixon Era they didn't have Fox News and other such outlets spewing propaganda. Because of that Republicans can really control the narrative.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Sept 27, 2019 10:06:32 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 10:11:39 GMT -6
This is where I’m keeping up to date on impeachment news. Thanks everyone 🙏🏻
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Sept 27, 2019 10:16:19 GMT -6
I'm trying to figure out why would they toss this to Schiff instead of Nadler? Because of the sole Ukraine focus? But the articles have to come out of Judiciary, dont they?
I'm ok with more Schiff, I just thought they were letting J cmte take the lead.
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elle
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Post by elle on Sept 27, 2019 10:18:46 GMT -6
One thing I think people really miss when they point to Republicans eventually turning in Nixon is that Nixon didn't have multiple propaganda outlets spinning the wheels all day every day. When did the rule about fair and balanced news coverage stop? Because I'm trying to remember seeing something about how when we only had 3 stations, the news had to present a nonslanted story and it was an FCC rule?
Did I dream that?
The Fairness doctrine was eliminated in 1987 under Reagan. I was just a little kid but I remember my dad ranting about how this was the beginning of the end. Sadly, I don't think he was wrong.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Sept 27, 2019 10:42:44 GMT -6
Rudy was in contact at 'least 10 times' with the former Ukrainian prosecutor. Rudy is gonna be disbarred
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Sept 27, 2019 10:51:06 GMT -6
I'm trying to figure out why would they toss this to Schiff instead of Nadler? Because of the sole Ukraine focus? But the articles have to come out of Judiciary, dont they? I'm ok with more Schiff, I just thought they were letting J cmte take the lead. This falls under HPSCI jurisdiction, but impeachment belongs to HJC. So HPSCI will conduct the investigation, Schiff will draft articles of impeachment, then HJC will vote on whether to refer those articles to the full House for a vote
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roloma
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Post by roloma on Sept 27, 2019 10:52:08 GMT -6
Rudy was in contact at 'least 10 times' with the former Ukrainian prosecutor. Rudy is gonna be disbarred I think disbarment might be the least of his worries at this point.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Sept 27, 2019 10:52:52 GMT -6
Popping in bc it seems that the WH is arguing that moving the call logs to Code Word wasn't bad bc they are already classified.
That's not how any of this works.
I can go into more detail if anyone wants but their argument here is complete fallacy
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Post by cakewench on Sept 27, 2019 11:00:20 GMT -6
This could go in a few threads but putting it here - Tulsi flipped on supporting impeachment:
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Sept 27, 2019 11:03:37 GMT -6
Someone reminded Tulsi that she's tryna be the "national security " democrat
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Sept 27, 2019 11:03:59 GMT -6
I'm trying to figure out why would they toss this to Schiff instead of Nadler? Because of the sole Ukraine focus? But the articles have to come out of Judiciary, dont they? I'm ok with more Schiff, I just thought they were letting J cmte take the lead. This falls under HPSCI jurisdiction, but impeachment belongs to HJC. So HPSCI will conduct the investigation, Schiff will draft articles of impeachment, then HJC will vote on whether to refer those articles to the full House for a vote Ok that makes sense.
Does this mean the other committees stop what they are doing if its solely focused on this single issue?
I need a venn diagram or some sort of flow chart.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Sept 27, 2019 11:06:22 GMT -6
Popping in bc it seems that the WH is arguing that moving the call logs to Code Word wasn't bad bc they are already classified. That's not how any of this works. I can go into more detail if anyone wants but their argument here is complete fallacy They were talking about this on MSNBC last night when I posted I was uncomfortable with them giving out what the names of the servers/locations
It basically Code Word is supposed to be reserved for completely covert actions, correct? Like Bin Ladens takedown. I know they sent a thing to the White House to preserve documents but if its on that server how do they prevent the destruction?
I guess yes we can go into the detail
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Sept 27, 2019 11:08:45 GMT -6
This falls under HPSCI jurisdiction, but impeachment belongs to HJC. So HPSCI will conduct the investigation, Schiff will draft articles of impeachment, then HJC will vote on whether to refer those articles to the full House for a vote Ok that makes sense.
Does this mean the other committees stop what they are doing if its solely focused on this single issue?
I need a venn diagram or some sort of flow chart.
The other committees are working to "wrap up" their investigations but I would expect the investigations to continue because they are legitimate government oversight. They just may not result in articles of impeachment . (Although from a Constitutional standpoint, I think they could impeach him again if the Senate don't convict)
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byjove
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Post by byjove on Sept 27, 2019 11:14:04 GMT -6
Popping in bc it seems that the WH is arguing that moving the call logs to Code Word wasn't bad bc they are already classified. That's not how any of this works. I can go into more detail if anyone wants but their argument here is complete fallacy I think this just emphasizes how it’s amateur hour over there.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Sept 27, 2019 11:16:27 GMT -6
jkjacq basically, anything that is Top Secret or higher is highly highly compartmentalized so a person only sees the stuff they need to see to do their job. The server in question here is locked down tight and nothing goes outside the White House complex. It's so sensitive that beyond the normal compartmentalization, there are code words attached to keep the viewing audience very very small. The administration argument is that they got burned by leaks in 2017. Fine. So they started distributing hard copies and Eyes Only copies of these memoranda, keeping a writ chain of custody, etc to avoid leaks and even be able to identify from where a leak came, should one occur. This is a completely reasonable change in protocol. What they did with the Zelensky call was to not just restrict who could see it and where and when, it was to lock it away where it would basically never see the light if day. If your kid gets into the cookies, you move the cookie jar to a higher shelf. You don't move your child to Istanbul. It's just a gross abuse of a system designed to protect the most sensitive national security information and there's no reasonable argument for this call, based on the memo about it, to be locked down like that unless it was part of a cover up.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Sept 27, 2019 11:19:01 GMT -6
Destruction of anything on that server would prooooobably be a violation of the presidential records act but anyway. Adam Schiff is Gang of Eight. He has (or can easily be granted!( the authority to Demand and view some of the stuff on that server.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Sept 27, 2019 11:23:11 GMT -6
What they did with the Zelensky call was to not just restrict who could see it and where and when, it was to lock it away where it would basically never see the light if day. If your kid gets into the cookies, you move the cookie jar to a higher shelf. You don't move your child to Istanbul. It's just a gross abuse of a system designed to protect the most sensitive national security information and there's no reasonable argument for this call, based on the memo about it, to be locked down like that unless it was part of a cover up. Right so if ALL those calls are now on that server/code word protected. How does anyone know whether or not they exist?
And how do we know they didn't Enron them all in the last 3 days?
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Sept 27, 2019 11:31:35 GMT -6
What they did with the Zelensky call was to not just restrict who could see it and where and when, it was to lock it away where it would basically never see the light if day. If your kid gets into the cookies, you move the cookie jar to a higher shelf. You don't move your child to Istanbul. It's just a gross abuse of a system designed to protect the most sensitive national security information and there's no reasonable argument for this call, based on the memo about it, to be locked down like that unless it was part of a cover up. Right so if ALL those calls are now on that server/code word protected. How does anyone know whether or not they exist?
And how do we know they didn't Enron them all in the last 3 days?
Anyone at the WH, NSC, State etc. that was on the call knows the content of the memos. Producing the memos is standard, the thing that changed is where they are stored. I guess we can't prove nobody did / could destroy them but their existence is required by law so trying to say they don't exist and never did would be reeeeeeally dumb
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Sept 27, 2019 11:46:05 GMT -6
lol I love how my phone just automatically capitalizes Demand now
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Post by oreobitsy on Sept 27, 2019 11:52:18 GMT -6
He makes good points about focusing solely on Ukraine to avoid the Republicans trying to muddy the waters.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Sept 27, 2019 12:03:09 GMT -6
I just remembered that the chief counsel for the House Judiciary committee left...last week.
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