thatgolfb
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Post by thatgolfb on Mar 19, 2019 16:12:35 GMT -6
I'm trying to figure out the difference between "helping" and helping. Helping is okay, "helping" means they are doing the work for their kid, yes? ETA: I would like to be clear that I fully recognize the privilege that was afforded to me growing up and as it pertains to college admissions. In case that needs to be stated. IMO, yes, that's why I put the quotation marks. I helped my students - sat down next to them and walked them through every question on their applications, told them where to find the info from their transcripts and what it all meant, went through everything they needed to get from their parents for the FAFSA and how to fill it in. But that's different from mom saying she'll take a look at your essay and then completely rewriting it instead of giving suggestions on how you can improve it yourself, or whatever. I mean... yes. It is different. I don't recall anyone here saying that this occurred in their lives. The only person that mentioned proofreading was me, unless I missed something, and this is certainly not what I said. |
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Post by stayingblonde on Mar 19, 2019 16:13:58 GMT -6
And this is all why my students, 1st gen, minority and/or low-income kids, are at such a huge disadvantage. They all desperately want to go to college, and they are SMART and work their asses off, but they are up against: ~Aunt Becky/Felicity Huffman ~Grandpa Moneybags buying a library for his mediocre progeny ~Parents dropping $$$ for college counselor ~College-educated parents completing or "helping" with applications/essays/etc These kids obviously aren't bribing anyone, but they also don't even have someone who has done it before helping them though the process. They have to figure it all out on their own and do it all themselves. Well, they have me, because this is my literal job, but I have 60 of them this year and there is only one of me. And I'm obviously teaching them to do it themselves and not doing it for them. But FFS, this is like having your kid do his science project all on his own and then getting to the science fair and seeing that a bunch of scientist parents did the projects for everyone else and your kid gets a D even though he did his own damn work. I know you guys know this, I'm just so fired up about it right now. I am so with you on this! I was not at all disadvantaged financially. I was certainly privileged in that sense. But nobody was checking up on my work or applications or testing or anything like that. Neither of my parents went to school in this country. Neither of them could write themselves out of a paper bag. Proofread an essay? Not happening. Please. It was the other way around. My brother and I were writing business letters for our parents. Your students are so lucky to have you, even if there is only one you for 60 of them. I still feel so incredibly beholden to my high school counselor, who suggested that I apply to private schools instead of just the UC schools that I'd originally thought were my only option, and my senior English teacher, who not only wrote my recommendations but guided me through the general admissions process along with my counselor. So many kids don't have parents who are able to oversee or aid in this process. And so many kids also don't have people at school who can help either. (I got so lucky in this regard.) This is why this admissions scheme infuriates me so much. It's not a victimless crime.How many kids didn't get into college because of all these dishonest rich cheaters? I am just so angry. Thanks, friend. I'm so glad I had the opportunity to take over this class because it means so much to me to be able to help these kids in any way I can. I have one of them up for a HUGE scholarship that I was able to nominate her for - she just made it to an interview round and I literally dreamed about it all night last night because I'm so excited for her. And I think the bolded is why there is some disconnect on reactions to this college admissions scheme. Some people are really not seeing who the true victims in this story are. |
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Post by stayingblonde on Mar 19, 2019 16:14:43 GMT -6
IMO, yes, that's why I put the quotation marks. I helped my students - sat down next to them and walked them through every question on their applications, told them where to find the info from their transcripts and what it all meant, went through everything they needed to get from their parents for the FAFSA and how to fill it in. But that's different from mom saying she'll take a look at your essay and then completely rewriting it instead of giving suggestions on how you can improve it yourself, or whatever. I mean... yes. It is different. I don't recall anyone here saying that this occurred in their lives. The only person that mentioned proofreading was me, unless I missed something, and this is certainly not what I said. Oh, gosh, not calling you out at all. I just mean out there in the world in general. Not anything anyone on this board said. |
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Post by angelashly on Mar 19, 2019 16:16:07 GMT -6
IMO, yes, that's why I put the quotation marks. I helped my students - sat down next to them and walked them through every question on their applications, told them where to find the info from their transcripts and what it all meant, went through everything they needed to get from their parents for the FAFSA and how to fill it in. But that's different from mom saying she'll take a look at your essay and then completely rewriting it instead of giving suggestions on how you can improve it yourself, or whatever. I mean... yes. It is different. I don't recall anyone here saying that this occurred in their lives. The only person that mentioned proofreading was me, unless I missed something, and this is certainly not what I said. No one here personally but we did mention that the rewriting and filling out by parents happens a lot. Sure not all students but yes a lot of parents are very involved with the application process |
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thatgolfb
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Post by thatgolfb on Mar 19, 2019 16:17:00 GMT -6
I mean... yes. It is different. I don't recall anyone here saying that this occurred in their lives. The only person that mentioned proofreading was me, unless I missed something, and this is certainly not what I said. Oh, gosh, not calling you out at all. I just mean out there in the world in general. Not anything anyone on this board said. No worries. I think I am taking this too personally. I saw the comment about proofreading from soup as well and made assumptions, which I shouldn't have done. I'm sorry for misinterpreting. Today has been a mentally exhausting day at work, and I think it is trickling over to here. |
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soup
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Post by soup on Mar 19, 2019 16:27:54 GMT -6
Oh, gosh, not calling you out at all. I just mean out there in the world in general. Not anything anyone on this board said. No worries. I think I am taking this too personally. I saw the comment about proofreading from soup as well and made assumptions, which I shouldn't have done. I'm sorry for misinterpreting. Today has been a mentally exhausting day at work, and I think it is trickling over to here. I'm not calling you out either. My point is that what many people think is the norm is not in fact the norm for so many kids in America. Something seemingly simple like proofreading (which my own children will likely get from me when the time comes) is a luxury that many kids do not have. And stayingblonde's bolding of my statement that this is not a victimless crime is truly the most important part that many people don't seem to understand. When all these students got in fraudulently, other students who were actually deserving were rejected. That is what incenses me so. |
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thatgolfb
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Post by thatgolfb on Mar 19, 2019 16:58:14 GMT -6
No worries. I think I am taking this too personally. I saw the comment about proofreading from soup as well and made assumptions, which I shouldn't have done. I'm sorry for misinterpreting. Today has been a mentally exhausting day at work, and I think it is trickling over to here. I'm not calling you out either. My point is that what many people think is the norm is not in fact the norm for so many kids in America. Something seemingly simple like proofreading (which my own children will likely get from me when the time comes) is a luxury that many kids do not have. And stayingblonde's bolding of my statement that this is not a victimless crime is truly the most important part that many people don't seem to understand. When all these students got in fraudulently, other students who were actually deserving were rejected. That is what incenses me so. I completely agree with you. |
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inthekitty
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Post by inthekitty on Mar 19, 2019 17:14:27 GMT -6
And this is all why my students, 1st gen, minority and/or low-income kids, are at such a huge disadvantage. They all desperately want to go to college, and they are SMART and work their asses off, but they are up against: ~Aunt Becky/Felicity Huffman ~Grandpa Moneybags buying a library for his mediocre progeny ~Parents dropping $$$ for college counselor ~College-educated parents completing or "helping" with applications/essays/etc These kids obviously aren't bribing anyone, but they also don't even have someone who has done it before helping them though the process. They have to figure it all out on their own and do it all themselves. Well, they have me, because this is my literal job, but I have 60 of them this year and there is only one of me. And I'm obviously teaching them to do it themselves and not doing it for them. But FFS, this is like having your kid do his science project all on his own and then getting to the science fair and seeing that a bunch of scientist parents did the projects for everyone else and your kid gets a D even though he did his own damn work. I know you guys know this, I'm just so fired up about it right now. I would say this idea is a recent eye-opener for most here. It was quite a long time ago, but in a UO or FFFC I brought up something about proof-reading HS-aged kids essays and I thought it was inappropriate. The majority of responses were basically that of course they will help their kids with their homework and why wouldn't I. This is why. At HS kids are more than old enough to do their own damn work. Their grades should be a reflection of their ability alone and not their ability plus their parent's oversight. If they want peer feedback or take the time to go to the teacher's office for questions that's fine. Or if they want my feedback about a specific part of their work--fine. But going through all of their essays with the red pen is an unfair advantage. |
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Post by GhoatMonket on Mar 19, 2019 17:31:46 GMT -6
And this is all why my students, 1st gen, minority and/or low-income kids, are at such a huge disadvantage. They all desperately want to go to college, and they are SMART and work their asses off, but they are up against: ~Aunt Becky/Felicity Huffman ~Grandpa Moneybags buying a library for his mediocre progeny ~Parents dropping $$$ for college counselor ~College-educated parents completing or "helping" with applications/essays/etc These kids obviously aren't bribing anyone, but they also don't even have someone who has done it before helping them though the process. They have to figure it all out on their own and do it all themselves. Well, they have me, because this is my literal job, but I have 60 of them this year and there is only one of me. And I'm obviously teaching them to do it themselves and not doing it for them. But FFS, this is like having your kid do his science project all on his own and then getting to the science fair and seeing that a bunch of scientist parents did the projects for everyone else and your kid gets a D even though he did his own damn work. I know you guys know this, I'm just so fired up about it right now. I would say this idea is a recent eye-opener for most here. It was quite a long time ago, but in a UO or FFFC I brought up something about proof-reading HS-aged kids essays and I thought it was inappropriate. The majority of responses were basically that of course they will help their kids with their homework and why wouldn't I. This is why. At HS kids are more than old enough to do their own damn work. Their grades should be a reflection of their ability alone and not their ability plus their parent's oversight. If they want peer feedback or take the time to go to the teacher's office for questions that's fine. Or if they want my feedback about a specific part of their work--fine. But going through all of their essays with the red pen is an unfair advantage. So I shouldn't have had my mom or teachers proofread my essays before turning them in (scholarships, term papers, what have you)? LOL. Tough. Them redoing it for me would be overstepping. You can't expect everyone to be perfect and be able to perfectly proofread their own work. Adults don't do that- I run things through other people before sending out to a group even now. I see you are ok with a teacher and not a parent. So parents can't be involved in the process because that's cheating, but another adult is hunky dory? Why is that a line? |
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soup
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Post by soup on Mar 19, 2019 17:36:50 GMT -6
I would say this idea is a recent eye-opener for most here. It was quite a long time ago, but in a UO or FFFC I brought up something about proof-reading HS-aged kids essays and I thought it was inappropriate. The majority of responses were basically that of course they will help their kids with their homework and why wouldn't I. This is why. At HS kids are more than old enough to do their own damn work. Their grades should be a reflection of their ability alone and not their ability plus their parent's oversight. If they want peer feedback or take the time to go to the teacher's office for questions that's fine. Or if they want my feedback about a specific part of their work--fine. But going through all of their essays with the red pen is an unfair advantage. So I shouldn't have had my mom or teachers proofread my essays before turning them in (scholarships, term papers, what have you)? LOL. Tough. Them redoing it for me would be overstepping. You can't expect everyone to be perfect and be able to perfectly proofread their own work. Adults don't do that- I run things through other people before sending out to a group even now. I see you are ok with a teacher and not a parent. So parents can't be involved in the process because that's cheating, but another adult is hunky dory? Why is that a line? Well, I would argue that all students in a class have access to the teacher, whereas not all students have parents who can help. That's where the unfair advantage lies. Of course, even access to a helpful teacher isn't always available because not all teachers go above and beyond like this. |
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inthekitty
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Post by inthekitty on Mar 19, 2019 17:39:54 GMT -6
I would say this idea is a recent eye-opener for most here. It was quite a long time ago, but in a UO or FFFC I brought up something about proof-reading HS-aged kids essays and I thought it was inappropriate. The majority of responses were basically that of course they will help their kids with their homework and why wouldn't I. This is why. At HS kids are more than old enough to do their own damn work. Their grades should be a reflection of their ability alone and not their ability plus their parent's oversight. If they want peer feedback or take the time to go to the teacher's office for questions that's fine. Or if they want my feedback about a specific part of their work--fine. But going through all of their essays with the red pen is an unfair advantage. So I shouldn't have had my mom or teachers proofread my essays before turning them in (scholarships, term papers, what have you)? LOL. Tough. Them redoing it for me would be overstepping. You can't expect everyone to be perfect and be able to perfectly proofread their own work. Adults don't do that- I run things through other people before sending out to a group even now. I see you are ok with a teacher and not a parent. So parents can't be involved in the process because that's cheating, but another adult is hunky dory? Why is that a line? Everyone has access to the teacher and presumably the teacher will offer similar help to students across the board. And I didn't say no help whatsoever, but regularly taking the red pen to your kid's work is too much. They need to learn to do it on their own. I also said peer assistance (similar to an adult running their work by others) is normal, but I stand by having your parents read through all your work is overkill. ETA: I realize there are some circumstances where perhaps a student has no time outside of class if there isn't time during class to talk to the teacher, but in most cases it's a much more equilateral situation. |
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Post by GhoatMonket on Mar 19, 2019 17:47:47 GMT -6
So parents can't help ever.
What in the hell.
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Post by GhoatMonket on Mar 19, 2019 17:48:36 GMT -6
I am never on board with parents having to 100% check out of their child's education. You should want to build up and provide resources for those that are missing that, not tying the hands of kids that do.
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inthekitty
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Post by inthekitty on Mar 19, 2019 17:52:31 GMT -6
So parents can't help ever. What in the hell. I'm assuming your referring to me. No one said that. I even specifically said I'm perfectly okay with focused help. But go way out in left field if you wish. |
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inthekitty
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Post by inthekitty on Mar 19, 2019 17:54:42 GMT -6
I don't know how people can gasp at the helicoptering in college and beyond but not understand that you can't wait until a kid should be a fully functioning adult out on their own before letting them do some things on their own even if that means struggling some. HS homework is a very simple place to start.
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thatgolfb
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Post by thatgolfb on Mar 19, 2019 17:55:56 GMT -6
And this is all why my students, 1st gen, minority and/or low-income kids, are at such a huge disadvantage. They all desperately want to go to college, and they are SMART and work their asses off, but they are up against: ~Aunt Becky/Felicity Huffman ~Grandpa Moneybags buying a library for his mediocre progeny ~Parents dropping $$$ for college counselor ~College-educated parents completing or "helping" with applications/essays/etc These kids obviously aren't bribing anyone, but they also don't even have someone who has done it before helping them though the process. They have to figure it all out on their own and do it all themselves. Well, they have me, because this is my literal job, but I have 60 of them this year and there is only one of me. And I'm obviously teaching them to do it themselves and not doing it for them. But FFS, this is like having your kid do his science project all on his own and then getting to the science fair and seeing that a bunch of scientist parents did the projects for everyone else and your kid gets a D even though he did his own damn work. I know you guys know this, I'm just so fired up about it right now. I would say this idea is a recent eye-opener for most here. It was quite a long time ago, but in a UO or FFFC I brought up something about proof-reading HS-aged kids essays and I thought it was inappropriate. The majority of responses were basically that of course they will help their kids with their homework and why wouldn't I. This is why. At HS kids are more than old enough to do their own damn work. Their grades should be a reflection of their ability alone and not their ability plus their parent's oversight. If they want peer feedback or take the time to go to the teacher's office for questions that's fine. Or if they want my feedback about a specific part of their work--fine. But going through all of their essays with the red pen is an unfair advantage. I feel the need to note that the only time my mom proofread anything was my main college essay. And she made no changes, I probably should have stated that earlier. My grades were my work alone. |
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soup
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Post by soup on Mar 19, 2019 17:56:09 GMT -6
So parents can't help ever. What in the hell. I didn't say this either, although there are plenty of students who truly don't get any parental assistance. I'm simply pointing out that parental help is a luxury and an advantage, no matter how much it seems to be the norm to most people on this board. |
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thatgolfb
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Post by thatgolfb on Mar 19, 2019 17:56:29 GMT -6
I mean yes I had parental support throughout my entire school life through college. Which is privileged. Unfair advantage? Maybe. IDK.
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Post by GhoatMonket on Mar 19, 2019 17:56:58 GMT -6
So parents can't help ever. What in the hell. I'm assuming your referring to me. No one said that. I even specifically said I'm perfectly okay with focused help. But go way out in left field if you wish. What do you consider focused help? Because to me proofreading a paper and explaining the errors made qualifies to me. |
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Post by shan-ah-doo on Mar 19, 2019 17:57:26 GMT -6
This place, man.
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Post by shan-ah-doo on Mar 19, 2019 17:58:06 GMT -6
Don’t authors have their shit proofread?
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soup
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Post by soup on Mar 19, 2019 18:02:30 GMT -6
Don’t authors have their shit proofread? Not by their parents. LOL. |
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Post by shan-ah-doo on Mar 19, 2019 18:03:16 GMT -6
Don’t authors have their shit proofread? Not by their parents. LOL. But proofreading is proofreading in my book. 🤷🏻♀️ |
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soup
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Post by soup on Mar 19, 2019 18:03:56 GMT -6
I mean yes I had parental support throughout my entire school life through college. Which is privileged. Unfair advantage? Maybe. IDK. Life is generally unfair. Look, I hope you don't think I'm picking on you, but I think your experience is probably the experience that many posters had. Of course it is an advantage to have parents who speak English. Of course it is an advantage to have parents who are capable of assisting. Of course it is an advantage to have parents who are home and not working a night shift. Of course it is an advantage to have parents who can foot application fees. These are all advantages. I had advantages, too. I feel we can all acknowledge this. |
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thatgolfb
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Post by thatgolfb on Mar 19, 2019 18:05:40 GMT -6
I am never on board with parents having to 100% check out of their child's education. You should want to build up and provide resources for those that are missing that, not tying the hands of kids that do. I feel like this is what has been in the back of my mind throughout this conversation and I couldn’t quite figure out how to say it. |
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Post by shan-ah-doo on Mar 19, 2019 18:06:23 GMT -6
Not by their parents. LOL. But proofreading is proofreading in my book. 🤷🏻♀️ Really? No ones gonna “ISWYDT”???? |
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Post by GhoatMonket on Mar 19, 2019 18:07:15 GMT -6
Don’t authors have their shit proofread? Not by their parents. LOL. I bet if someone's parent is a proofreader by trade, they would. |
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soup
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Post by soup on Mar 19, 2019 18:08:03 GMT -6
Not by their parents. LOL. But proofreading is proofreading in my book. 🤷🏻♀️ But it's different when one kid can ask his mom to proofread, and another kid's mom doesn't speak English. Or another kid's mom works at night. Both kids could ask a teacher for proofreading assistance. That's equal footing. The kid whose mom doesn't speak English and the kid whose mom has a night shift are at a disadvantage because they don't have that extra, convenient resource at home. |
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Post by GhoatMonket on Mar 19, 2019 18:08:14 GMT -6
But proofreading is proofreading in my book. 🤷🏻♀️ Really? No ones gonna “ISWYDT”???? A missed opportunity. This is why I'm not a proofreader. |
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Post by GhoatMonket on Mar 19, 2019 18:09:04 GMT -6
But proofreading is proofreading in my book. 🤷🏻♀️ But it's different when one kid can ask his mom to proofread, and another kid's mom doesn't speak English. Or another kid's mom works at night. Both kids could ask a teacher for proofreading assistance. That's equal footing. The kid whose mom doesn't speak English and the kid whose mom has a night shift are at disadvantage because they don't have that extra, convenient resource at home. Or the kid that has a mom that can help can have her help and the kid that needs more assistance can have more of the teacher's time. |
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