can you help me?

[sing2phins]

Hi, guys.  I feel kind of awkward coming in asking for help after not being involved here for so long, but after so many "N13-only" posts on FB asking for advice, I realized I should just come back here.  Even though my posts were hidden from everyone on FB except N13, I still felt weird using the platform that way, and there are more of you here, and I have to believe some you are going through some of the same stuff, so . . . I hope you won't shun me.

PDQ:

Things in my house are out of control.  DH and I are at the end our ropes, which doesn't help diffuse the situations that arise - we are already so frustrated that one small transgression can blow up quickly.  The short of it is, my kids do not listen, bedtime is a total shitshow, and I'm pretty sure DH and I won't make it if we don't get a handle on this now.

I don't even know how to describe what's going on.  Bedtime is a fight every night.  Assuming we can get them in PJs and teeth brushed without much fuss, they each get a story and on my nights to tuck in, a song.  But, half the time, we end up taking away story time for bad behavior, and I haven't sung them songs in weeks.  Maggie constantly jumps on her bed - a couple weeks ago, she fell off and got a big goose egg on her forehead, but apparently hasn't learned her lesson - climbs into bed with Ben (they still share a room, which is unavoidable and a major point of contention between me and DH), screams bloody murder when we leave, encourages Ben to misbehave or cry so we'll come back in.  Benjamin lives to please Maggie, so he joins in, even though I can tell it's exhausting for him.  It escalates to the point that DH and I leave and hold the door closed (which they hate and usually gets them back in their beds) and just let them do whatever, because nothing works.  But sometimes they turn on the light and run around jumping on the beds and being crazy - last week, DH took the lightbulbs out of their lights so they at least had to be in the dark.

When we were in Toronto, they slept in separate rooms in our AirBnB - they didn't like it right at bedtime, but they fell right asleep without any nonsense.  I keep telling DH that the #1 problem is them sharing a room, and he keeps insisting that if they were in separate rooms, they would just run into each other's rooms - except the only evidence we have of them sleeping separately shows that they won't.  Ben, in particular, I think would really love it if Maggie would just leave him the fuck alone at bedtime.  DH basically refuses to talk about moving "because our house isn't anywhere near ready to go on the market" and "we'll have to use the equity in our house for a down payment" which might make any contract harder, but he won't do anything to help get our house ready to sell.

Beyond bedtime, basically everything is a struggle.  No one listens the first time, or the second time, or the third time, and then we yell, and they cry, and we feel bad, and then finally they do what they were told.  Rinse and repeat 1000 times a day.  DH keeps telling me they are spoiled, and I think I finally have to accept that it's true and that it is largely my fault.  I am lazy about discipline and often make DH be the bad guy.  I also often contradict him on punishments in front of them, which I know is terrible and contributing to the problem.  They think our threats of punishment are bluffs, and they will call them as long as we let them.

Personally, I'm struggling with family issues and finally went back to counseling, saw my psychiatrist, and increased my anti-depressants.  It feels like maybe it's helping take the edge off a little, but not enough.  I think DH needs to go back to counseling, and I think we both need to go to parenting classes (which he agreed to).  But in the meantime, we still have to get through the day-to-day, and we are failing miserably.  I have a real fear that we have fucked everything up and I am actually scared of what will happen when they are teenagers.

Anyway, thanks for reading all that.  All insight/advice/CTJ is welcome.

[klong11]

Maggie sounds like Cadence at bedtime. I started giving her melatonin during the week and it has helped TREMENDOUSLY! Bedtimes are now peaceful and controlled. I think it also helps with during the day because she's not tired all the time.

As far as discipline, you have to be a united front and stick with the consequences. 3 counts and it's time out. Anything physical (hitting, biting, pushing, throwing things at people) gets an automatic time out. I will and do hold the door for her timeouts because they are in her room and she will straight up walk out if she can. Once they see you aren't budging and letting them off the hook, they will start straightening out.

I'm sorry you are dealing with all of this and I hope you can all work together to make the home more harmonious.

[peachsmama]

I will add more but first off, you did not fuck everything up! They are so freaking difficult at this age and it's so hard.

Why is putting them in separate rooms not an option? I know the other bedroom is in the basement but it's clean and dry and with a video monitor, I think could be an option for M. I can understand being uneasy about her being on another floor but maybe just try it? If it works that could be the push you need for D to see the need to look for a bigger house.

[trtlcrzy]

Hey, we would never shun you. I think you’ve been to my house at bedtime. My girls share a room and dink around forever before going to sleep. My solution to that problem is to lay in the bed with them until they fall asleep, which also sucks.

In regards to the not listening, H is the same way. She will do anything and everything she thinks she can get away with even though she knows it’s naughty. I yell, a lot. I honestly think consistency with discipline will improve my situation.

[lfig]

sing2phins you are an awesome mom! You most certainly did not fuck everything up! You are awesome also because you realize that things are not ideal or going how you would like them to and are reaching out for help! My sister has 4 kids in a 3 BR house. So her son (10yo) is in 1 room and the twin girls (8) and her youngest girl (6) all 3 share a room. It is disastrous and sounds similar to your situation. Except her kids are old enough to know better and act right. Lol.

As far as bedtime goes, I know it isn't for everyone...but like klong11 Melatonin was a game changer for us. Bedtime had gotten out of control and S would not stay in her bed. She was fighting sleep till very late, which was partially due to a seizure medication that causes sleeplessness. And then on the flip side, due to the lack of sleep, she would have increased seizures the next morning. The neurologist suggested the use of Melatonin and said it was perfectly safe. We give 3mg a night of a timed release melatonin because for a while she was waking in the MOTN and staying awake for a few hours. My evenings are sooooo much better now. She gets the pill at 7:15 and then when I lay her down at 7:30 she falls asleep within a few minutes. Then I have the rest of my evening to spend time with MH, do laundry, clean up dinner, watch tv, read, whatever. I feel much more myself when I can catch up on things around the house and/or relax without tending to the child constantly for a few hours in the evenings.

Other bedtime options since splitting them up isn't an option at this point...is either of them a heavy enough sleeper that you could put them to bed in your room while the other goes to bed in their room, then once they are out move them to their bed? I have done this with S a few times when we are staying somewhere else and she sleeps on a little cot. It was easier for her to get to sleep in our bed and then I moved her to the cot once I went to go to bed and she stayed out fine. I usually laid down with her till she was out since curiosity in new surroundings can be an issue.

As far as discipline, I agree that you need to be a united front...which sounds like you already know that needs work, so that's the first step! I don't always agree with MH on discipline issues. And I would definitely say he is the firmer one. Whereas I often take the approach of "what's it hurting" when shes doing something less desirable but not a big deal. But in the end, if you come up with a plan and stick to it I think that will make a world of difference. I like Klongorias approach of listing out some of the major infractions and setting a punishment for it. Obviously things will happen that aren't on that "list"...but you can wing it. But more so than that....having consequences and sticking to them is the biggest help I think. And this is coming more from my years working in day cares and preschools than as a parent...because because of S's delays...we don't have quite the same situation for discipling ect. due to her lack of fully understanding cause/effect ect. But the follow through is the most important part. My sisters kids are totally wild heathens with her and her H. But when they are with my parents they are great (and I know that a lot of kids are better with others than with their parents). I am certain this is because my parents don't let them be wild banshees. They have consequences and they follow through. The kids have realized over the years what they can/can't get away with and with who. So they are so much better behaved with my parents. But the second my sister walks in they become crazy unruly children again. My sister even realizes it, and wants to change, but doesn't actually follow through with change. Change is hard, setting new routines is hard, sticking with them is hard. But I think if you do it now, it will be easier than when they are older like in my sister's case.

Regardless, good luck! I know you can do this. You are a rock star mom! Don't ever let yourself think anything less!

[klong11]

We only give 1mg a night in liquid form of melatonin. I don't give it Friday, Saturday or Sunday nights, just during the week.

[sands42]

sing2phins You’re always welcome here! I’m not sure that I have advice. But, I want you to know that you are not alone with the behavior. I am also very lax about discipline and I’m starting to see the effects of it with Gunner. His behavior is straight up embarrassing sometimes. It’s so great that your H is willing to do the parenting classes with you! Hopefully you guys can learn lots of helpful advice!

[jewels]

A few thoughts

1) You did not fuck everything up. You are realizing there is a problem and are taking steps towards improvement. We all have made mistakes/errors with our kid and learn and grow as we go.

2) I think the counseling/parenting classes are a great idea and can only help. I also think what klong11 mentioned above about consistency is key.

3) I mentioned a few weeks (months?) ago here that behavior was hard, and someone (vino I believe) suggested a star chart. I literally can't tell you how much it has improved our life. S lives and breathes for those damn stars and as soon as he acts up now, all I say is that's not star behavior and he stops in his tracks. We make a HUGE deal about giving him the stars, and at the end of the week each star is worth $.50 and we take that money and go to Target for him to pick out a toy. Yes, this may be bribery. But my kid's behavior has improved tenfold. I have like 8 categories, some easy, some harder (examples - put your laundry in the basket, eat dinner nicely, help your brother, use kind words, etc). I know there were options on the one I brought for go to bed, stay in bed, etc. When I am not consistent with it (forget to do the stars daily), I'll notice his behavior starts slipping.

4) I have also been very careful to remember to overpraise when he is acting right or when he does something extra helpful, so he's getting the positive reinforcement. My Ben has entered a REALLY rough phase and often S can help me with him. I will go out of my way to tell him how amazing a brother he is and how lucky we are to have him and then give him the stars for "being helpful" or "using kind words". At bedtime, I try to reiterate all the really good things he did that day rather.

I hope this helps. I have been there... and it's HARD.

Lastly, on an entirely different note, I am in the N13 group on Facebook, and I did not see any posts. Is there another group? Should I have FOMO?

[sing2phins]

Nov 7, 2018 10:19:22 GMT -6 jewels said:

Lastly, on an entirely different note, I am in the N13 group on Facebook, and I did not see any posts. Is there another group? Should I have FOMO?

No - I'm not in the private N13 group on FB anymore - I just meant that sometimes I post a question on FB and set the privacy level to only N13-ers so my kids aren't on blast to everyone on my friends list.  We are not friends on FB, I don't think, which is a thing that should be rectified!

[jewels]

Also, re: time out. It does not work for S. Never has. What does work? Putting his stuff in time out. The Ipad, his legos, etc. I will threaten it and he will usually stop. But if he doesn't stop, I always follow through on that (so I'm careful not to do anything that I can't live without, like say no tv). But we put things in time out for 1 day than 3 days, then, if he's not behaving (and if it's not something that is expensive), I'll tell him the next step is the garbage. I've only ever had to throw out 1 thing, but I did it. And he was hysterical about it.

Now that I am typing this out, along with the other post about rewarding for good behavior with a toy, I wonder... is my kid too materialistic?

[jewels]

Nov 7, 2018 10:22:15 GMT -6 sing2phins said:

Nov 7, 2018 10:19:22 GMT -6 jewels said:

Lastly, on an entirely different note, I am in the N13 group on Facebook, and I did not see any posts. Is there another group? Should I have FOMO?

No - I'm not in the private N13 group on FB anymore - I just meant that sometimes I post a question on FB and set the privacy level to only N13-ers so my kids aren't on blast to everyone on my friends list.  We are not friends on FB, I don't think, which is a thing that should be rectified!

OK good, I felt left out

Yes, we can rectify that on FB, although, I'm not sure I know your real name to find you... 

But also, now that you are back here, STAY. 

[sing2phins]

Maybe I'll resurrect our star chart. They never seemed to care that much about it, but maybe money will sweeten the deal.

I know kellykinns uses melatonin sometimes, too; I'm going to ask our pediatrician about it. I mentioned it to DH a couple months ago and he seemed pretty against it, but maybe if our pedi signs off, he'd be willing to give it a try.

I also try to praise them when they do good things, but I am going to focus more on that. I mentioned to DH last night that we should try putting our phones in time out from the time we get home from work until bedtime and spend that time (less than 2 hours, usually, talking to and playing with the kids (we cut out TV/tablet time during the week a couple of weeks ago because they started freaking out when it was time to turn them off, even with repeated countdown warnings). Maybe they just feel like they're not getting enough attention?

[trtlcrzy]

I also use melatonin sometimes. Usually it’s days I don’t have the fight in me.

[guster]

HiSing! I want you to stay. At one time or another we have all gone through some version of this with one or both kids, and there is always helpful advice to try. It’s a sanctuary in the crazy.

[guster]

I don’t know if this is helpful or not, but Josie (and now Charlie, too, for the last couple of months) thrives on routine, especially at bedtime. If we are missing some of the elements of it (which are simple — like brush your teeth, pick out a book, put your pajamas on) it tends to be a more challenging bedtime.
I know you probably don’t want to read them a story or sing them a song bc of how they behaved, but maybe having those things be constants (without the repercussions of having it being taken away) can help to do something that centers them enough to calm down.

[Sunny41]

HI!!!
We have these gummies. I take the adult dosage when I need help sleeping (like traveling). Remember that it doesn't knock them out like benadryl does, it just sends a signal to the body that it is time to sleep. www.target.com/p/zarbee-s-naturals-children-s-sleep-with-melatonin-gummies-natural-berry-50ct/-/A-51107346

If you think Ben might sleep better in another room can you make a place for him to sleep in your room? I am assuming he will fall asleep prior to you and YH. It wouldn't have to be a long term solution but would help answer the question if the room would help prior to buying a new house.

phone time out/restriction is something MH and I really need to do whether it is during kid time or our time.

do you have time in the evenings to get out by yourself? And him? Perhaps go get dinner and a drink and return after bedtime so you are refreshed for the next day? It is great that you went to counseling.

Do you do baths at night? That usually calms E. I know there is more than just bedtime but start with 1 issue and go from there. If the kids aren't getting a lot of sleep then that can lead to the bad behavior. Have you tried not responding after you say no? I do this with whining, pretend I didn't hear. Obviously this doesn't work with everything. My SIL does a standing story time and any kid that is available or wants can come listen. I'm not sure if she still does it with schedules and all but maybe something like that so Ben doesn't miss out?

[lfig]

Nov 7, 2018 10:34:13 GMT -6 sing2phins said:

Maybe I'll resurrect our star chart. They never seemed to care that much about it, but maybe money will sweeten the deal.

I know kellykinns uses melatonin sometimes, too; I'm going to ask our pediatrician about it. I mentioned it to DH a couple months ago and he seemed pretty against it, but maybe if our pedi signs off, he'd be willing to give it a try.

I also try to praise them when they do good things, but I am going to focus more on that. I mentioned to DH last night that we should try putting our phones in time out from the time we get home from work until bedtime and spend that time (less than 2 hours, usually, talking to and playing with the kids (we cut out TV/tablet time during the week a couple of weeks ago because they started freaking out when it was time to turn them off, even with repeated countdown warnings). Maybe they just feel like they're not getting enough attention?

I used Melatonin a few times, sporadically, in a fit of desperation on my part, before talking to the doctor.  MH was not really on board with it.  But then the doctor suggested it BEFORE I even had the chance to ask about it because of the bedtime issues/increased seizures due to lack of sleep.  Once I said "Dr.XXXX suggested that we use Melatonin to get through the bedtime issues and help tackle the sleep issues leading to increased seizures."  He was fully on board.  And like I said...life changing (for all of us)!

Also, I like your idea to put your own phones up in the evenings until their bedtime.  I think we should do that too.  I often find that S is a lot more....into everything...mischievous....when we are distracted by our phones.  I think I might try to get MH on board with this.  This morning when MH was supposed to be watching her while I was getting ready for work, he was on his phone scrolling FB and completely missed S taking off her diaper and peeing on the floor in the living room.  Right in front of him!

[sing2phins]

Nov 7, 2018 11:36:27 GMT -6 guster said:

I don’t know if this is helpful or not, but Josie (and now Charlie, too, for the last couple of months) thrives on routine, especially at bedtime. If we are missing some of the elements of it (which are simple — like brush your teeth, pick out a book, put your pajamas on) it tends to be a more challenging bedtime.
I know you probably don’t want to read them a story or sing them a song bc of how they behaved, but maybe having those things be constants (without the repercussions of having it being taken away) can help to do something that centers them enough to calm down.

(I mean that in all sincerity.)

[sing2phins]

Wait - where's my gif?? I have forgotten how to do everything here!

[cagoldi]

Hi! I love you and I’m glad you’re here today. ❤️

You definitely have not messed everything up, we’re all dealing with some challenging behaviors from the kids.

As others have mentioned, I would probably try melatonin at night. If you’re able to get their sleep schedule on track, their behavior might start to improve a bit overall. So I would look to work on that first.

My kids don’t listen particularly well. BUT, I do notice an improvement when we are incorporating books about a particular behavior we want to target like Hands are not for Hitting, Sharing Time, etc.

No star chart here, but we do reward Atticus with a coin for good behavior and he loves “feeding” his piggy bank. He also gets a camp out in the living room Friday and Saturday if he was well behaved that week. It’s a positive reinforcement, a couple nights where bedtime is way more relaxed, and also serves to give him some one on one time, which he really needs to stay on track. I’m not sure how feasible that is with Ben and Maggie since he would have the wherewithal to know she isn’t in their room; X remains blissfully unaware at this point.

We also do Ten Little Pigs at bedtime while tucking him in and use this time to encourage or praise desirable behaviorI.E. This little pig is kind to his brother, this little pig did a great job eating his dinner, this little pig listened right away for bath time, etc. It sounds cheesy but works pretty well.

As for non-monetary rewards, we do incorporate some activities that are kind of messy and not everyday things: kinetic sand, modeling clay, sensory bins, a Rocket Pop (the boys will do anything for those popsicles), a bug safari, a wildflower picking contest, etc. Nothing too out of the ordinary but definitely offered as a carrot to incentivize what we want them to do like “if you do a good job on dinner and finish quickly we have time for a bug safari.” Stuff like that.

I think the phone break is a great idea. We don’t use ours before the kids go to bed, but if Pete is kind of tuned out because he decided to watch soccer on the tablet or something, the boys deteriorate almost immediately.

I love the idea of parenting classes and wish I could find time for those.

Hang in there, you’re doing a great job even if some days it’s hard to see that. Just asking these questions means you’re already doing plenty.

[lahdeedah]

I’m sorry you are struggling , Sing. Please know that you are welcome here at any time.

I think everyone gave good advice. When reading your post, I too, would try to put them in separate rooms for bedtime and once asleep, transfer to their bed. Can Ben fall asleep in your room? Maybe divide and conquer at bedtime, as well. They can each get a separate book but maybe keep the routine the same for them both. I like to chat a bit with M right before bed, too. It gives him a little of my undivided attention and he can tell me about whatever he wants. Usually a few minutes into the chat he starts yawning and soon after it’s lights out and he falls asleep pretty easy.

flamingo suggested a book- The Well-Behaved Child by John Rosemond- a while back that I find is pretty no-nonsense discipline. The hard consequence is taking away their freedom/privilege and I’ve used it for M. He had to stay in his room for the rest of the night once, and he has not had to do that again yet. I haven’t finished the book yet, but got some good take away points from what I have read.

I hope you find a way that helps soon. We are here for you. Don’t be a stranger and keep us posted.

[guster]

Nov 7, 2018 12:38:17 GMT -6 sing2phins said:

Wait - where's my gif?? I have forgotten how to do everything here!

I can’t see it either, and maybe judging by your comment, I don’t want to! 😀

[sing2phins]

Nov 7, 2018 12:48:01 GMT -6 guster said:

Nov 7, 2018 12:38:17 GMT -6 sing2phins said:

Wait - where's my gif?? I have forgotten how to do everything here!

I can’t see it either, and maybe judging by your comment, I don’t want to! 😀

No, it's not bad - here's a link

[guster]

It’s not bad! And I still just love friends (especially that episode)

[sing2phins]

Nov 7, 2018 12:50:36 GMT -6 guster said:

It’s not bad! And I still just love friends (especially that episode)

Me, too, because that's exactly how I hear "Oooh, that's interesting!" in my head, every time! 

[nam2013]

I’m sorry you guys are struggling. We tried two kids in one room on vacation and it was a nightmare, the kept each other from falling asleep and because they fell asleep to late it wrecked the nights too. After two weeks we let dd fall asleep in our bedroom and transfers her at night. Maybe that could help you guys too.

At home they fall asleep easily most night. We have a very strict bedtime routine. Dinner, YouTube/dancing around, bedtime, brushing teeth, books & songs. We follow this every single night, especially the bath helps them calm down.

ETA we’ve noticed that if we rush trough the proces or skip parts, it almost always backfires...

[guster]

Nov 7, 2018 12:52:00 GMT -6 sing2phins said:

Nov 7, 2018 12:50:36 GMT -6 guster said:

It’s not bad! And I still just love friends (especially that episode)

Me, too, because that's exactly how I hear "Oooh, that's interesting!" in my head, every time! 

So much of my brain is filled with those pronunciations , especially “I know!”
Back to your original situation, I hope you can find a small fix for a piece of the puzzle and then maybe all of the other pieces will fall into place.

[sing2phins]

Thanks, guys. I just emailed our pedi about melatonin. I'm willing to try pretty much anything.

[tgrimes]

Hi!!!!!!!

I'm sorry bedtime you're dealing with this. Bedtime struggles always suck because it's the end of the night and you're ready for a break and then you have to deal with this shit. I agree with others about trying melatonin to see if that helps any. If it doesn't help, then I'd suggest separate rooms. There's no way my kids would fall asleep in the same room together.

As far as the not listening goes, may I suggest flamingo's favorite book: the Well Behaved Child. I don't necessarily agree with 100% of what he says, but I feel like it gives you a good base line on where to start nipping things in the butt. You basically focus on a couple negative behaviors to correct at a time. I've seen a huge difference in M since we started.

I personally wouldn't take a way books or songs at bedtime as punishment. My kids need the bedtime routine to be consistent.

Something else that may work for them is a timer. Once you're in their room for bedtime you set a timer for 5-10 min (or whatever y'all decide) for reading books or songs and then when the timer goes off, you're out. You could also use the timer for brushing teeth, bath time or whatever else you think it could work for and make sure when the timer goes off that activity is over immediately.

[dapostrophe]

Hi sing2phins! So nice to see you. You are not screwing them up, I promise. You have gotten some good advice, because we've all been there. Trust.

I have never used melatonin, so I cannot speak to that, but I def agree with having a routine. I say this a lot, but I'm big on making bedtime super relaxing. Nice warm bath, dim the lights, lotion massage, super cozy blankets, essential oil diffuser (I use the Good Sleep blend on Amazon). It helps me (and my H) get into a relaxed state of mind too, when we are really intentional about it. Also, when we enjoy bedtime (or at least don't totally dread it), my kids do to. Now, obviously life is busy and there is not always time for a big production, but you stick as close to the routine as you can as often as you can.

Second, while I think your no phones before bed/pay more attention to the kids is great in theory, the reality is that sometimes a little social media time is just the break you need after a long day and before launching into your night job: bedtime at the zoo. Can you guys take turns? Like H plays a game with them while you take a 30 minute break (I recommend Instant pot and Crock-Pot meals for this purpose). Then H gets a break while you run the bath and get bedtime started? The idea being that the more relaxed mom and dad are, the more the kids will respond in kind and the more energy you have to devote to them at bedtime (aka the witching hour) in the long run.

I have Ev & Bea in one room and Theo & Trav in another (Miles gets his own). It was a little challenging for them to adjust at first, but again...routine is everything. Can someone start putting Ben down a bit earlier so he gets one on one time, while the other washes up M? Maybe stagger bedtimes a bit? Either way, we have a firm rule that they do not leave their beds once we put them in. My kids don't potty overnight, but that or illness or a terrifying nightmare are the only exceptions...otherwise, you do not leave that bed. Your challenge will be instilling this in Maggie first, Ben will likely follow suit. If bedtime has been fun and relaxing, and you have to get stern to make this happen...it will likely have more impact than if the whole process has been stressful.

I'm going to stop writing now. Hope you stick around. You've got this and we are here for you!