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Post by sheilathetank on May 24, 2018 7:55:14 GMT -6
I really didn't feel like the convo with this bitch was a flaming. She did not leave after a raging fire flaming. She left after a few comments were made about her comments in the meat thread and SHE made an entire thread to bring the attention directly to her. Then dipped. Even if she did have a flaming, it was well deserved. This wasn't a over not returning shopping carts or something trivial. It was a deeply racist and problematic post/way of thinking. If you can't stand a flaming for something like that and realize that it is well deserved then... bye, Felicia.
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Post by angelashly on May 24, 2018 7:56:40 GMT -6
I am speaking for myself here on this one - for me @ctg30 came back and addressed the situation and I thought apologized at the time (whether it was good enough or not is subjective). I alluded to that in the context of different people get different treatment. I said multiple times not saying these people need to be dragged or not. This is why for me I didn't tag anyone. My point was not about revisiting but about the different treatment. Some have been honest and said well I don't like this person whereas I like this one. So that ended it for me. I feel like @ctg30 makes some valid points. I do feel there are some people who want to appear down or whatever and appear out for blood. I feel her statement "that every self congratulatory self proclaimed woke AF white woman here should remember we all have stuff to learn" is true. We are not going to solve racism here. So I don't know what some people are looking for or what their end game is? It does appear as though some want to keep up the mess. Ultimately people will come to their own conclusion (or I would hope) and interact how and with who they want to. It’s the refusal to see the other side of things for me. And yes we won’t cure racism here but I’d be lying if I said I didn’t have some very real self reflection in the recent years because of this board. I agree with this.
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Post by lucilleaustero on May 24, 2018 8:00:16 GMT -6
I don't think @ctg30 is a bad person. I don't believe that she harbors racists beliefs. I think she cares about the posters here.
I think she said something she realized she should not have said and apologized and thought it ended there. And it kind of did until this thread, so I get her confusion. This thread has been an examination of our own actions and where we white posters fail, especially when a well liked poster says something racist.
But, her posts in here have not really helped her. Sometimes a good defense is not the best offense. Sometimes it is best to say 'What I said was racist and I am sorry'and not just when it happens, but if/ when it gets brought up again. Doing otherwise and trying to mount a defense is really just doubling down.
Going in to a meeting now, so if anyone is going to slam me here, give me an hour or so.
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Post by sweptaway on May 24, 2018 8:08:49 GMT -6
Everyone here is formulating my words and thoughts much better than I can right now
The comparison between ctg and TB now seems apt in that both continued to double down and give tone deaf and self centered "explanations." If ctg truly read and comprehended those threads and still thinks TB was apologizing and driven out then... IDK. I'm sort of at a loss here
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Post by ambiguousmango on May 24, 2018 8:18:50 GMT -6
So I don't post much but I felt like I had to chime in on a couple of things.
I think that a lot of people here (and irl) have a huge disconnect with what racism, and racial biast, is and how just because you don't think you are racist you can still have racial tendencies.
Example: there are a group of men a different race than you walking down the street and you clutch your bag a little tighter. There are two cashier's open with no one in line but you go to the one that looks more like you.
Those may not seem like a racist thing to do (especially if you only think being a racist is when you have malicious intent) but you have a bias and it takes a lot to look in the mirror and say "damn it is so ingrained that I don't even think about it."
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dc2london
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Press Secretary
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Post by dc2london on May 24, 2018 8:20:35 GMT -6
I mean...we all agree by this point that EVEN WITHOUT MALICIOUS INTENT, one can still be racist/prejudiced/biased/problematic, yes? And its our own personal job to check that. And to check each other, when possible. And to learn from it so that we stop doing it. Like isn't a big part of the reason why racism is so rampant well-intended white folks who "don't see color" or other macro/microaggressions? *I am not trying to be woke - I know I am far from it, I am just musing on this. This is why white people need to accept that our entire society is built on racist structure and stop taking it as an assault on their character if they are confronted for doing or saying something racist. Learn something, do better going forward. If any person on this Earth thinks they are done growing as a person then they are wrong. We should always be striving to grow, learn, do better. Part of that is acknowledging white fragility. No, it's not easy. Too bad.
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Post by Rusty Red on May 24, 2018 8:20:42 GMT -6
Drama, Robbery Oh look, it is Bumblebee Hashtag no 1 curr I don't know where we are right now, but this gif made my morning.
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dc2london
Admin
Press Secretary
Posts: 62,687 Likes: 429,523
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Post by dc2london on May 24, 2018 8:23:05 GMT -6
So I don't post much but I felt like I had to chime in on a couple of things. I think that a lot of people here (and irl) have a huge disconnect with what racism, and racial biast, is and how just because you don't think you are racist you can still have racial tendencies. Example: there are a group of men a different race than you walking down the street and you clutch your bag a little tighter. There are two cashier's open with no one in line but you go to the one that looks more like you. Those may not seem like a racist thing to do (especially if you only think being a racist is when you have malicious intent) but you have a bias and it takes a lot to look in the mirror and say "damn it is so ingrained that I don't even think about it." Yes. This.
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Post by shan-ah-doo on May 24, 2018 8:23:56 GMT -6
You’re a damn fool for going to a cashier based on color. I ain’t going to slow poke Sally cuz she’s white. I’ve got places to be.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2018 8:30:15 GMT -6
You’re a damn fool for going to a cashier based on color. I ain’t going to slow poke Sally cuz she’s white. I’ve got places to be. I think it's more that even if all things are even, both cashiers are the same speed, same distance away, you're naturally going to go to the one who looks more like you because of implicit bias. You have to actively work against it.
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Post by vandelay on May 24, 2018 8:32:07 GMT -6
I can understand being taken aback if you thought you apologized for something and it was over, and now it's come back again in a big way. And I can understand that being upset about that might make you defensive. But I think we white women have got to get past the point where defensiveness is our default response. The long posts explaining WHY I said what I said, the accusations of playing race cards -- none of that is productive. And your particular post was REALLY not productive, @ctg30.
It would be one thing if it were only white women rehashing the hair incident, but it isn't -- black posters have raised it too. So in that context, "stirring up drama" reads like Race Card 2.0 to me -- it's an accusation that the issue isn't genuinely felt, but rather just a weapon to be used against well-meaning white women who are unfortunate enough to make a mistake. It's diminishing.
Honestly I don't have all the answers and I don't know what a good apology looks like here. But I do know that wasn't one.
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Post by shan-ah-doo on May 24, 2018 8:38:16 GMT -6
You’re a damn fool for going to a cashier based on color. I ain’t going to slow poke Sally cuz she’s white. I’ve got places to be. I think it's more that even if all things are even, both cashiers are the same speed, same distance away, you're naturally going to go to the one who looks more like you because of implicit bias. You have to actively work against it. Gotcha. But I was mostly kidding.
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lizblue
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Post by lizblue on May 24, 2018 8:45:30 GMT -6
I also think some of this is an awkward bumpy phase right now. A big part of this thread were non-black posters saying, "I vow to speak up more, I'm sorry I haven't." This is met with understandable skepticism (i.e. is this energy just going to be for ripper or your actual friends). Some make sure to come out and speak up on the ctg issue. This is met with understandable skepticism of the "newly woke brigade." None of this is wrong - the speaking up or the skepticism. This is how real life works, it's messy. White (and non black) people don't have a good track record with this shit. This issue will die down and future behavior will be the indicator of change.
Like Mcbenny said, we're not solving all of racism in this thread. Hopefully we're trying to be better, and I'm much more interested in the ways white people are working to disrupt racism off board.
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Post by SayitaintSnow on May 24, 2018 9:20:29 GMT -6
I stumbled on this op-ed shortly after I jumped to TB's defense in the meat thread and my own racism was pointed out to me. I've worked hard to be anti-racist and had been of the mindset that this work cancelled out any "mistakes" I might make. This op-ed gave me a whole new angle on the situation, though--it is so important to recognize, name, and take responsibility for our internalized racism and the way it translates into racist actions, in spite of our good intentions. This is a good read for all white people. @ctg30 it might give you another perspective on what is going on here. opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/12/24/dear-white-america/
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2018 9:25:52 GMT -6
Poofing cause this seems to be a work email This is what you get for trying to work and HIH simultaneously.
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Risscaboobs
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Fuck is by far my favorite F word.
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Post by Risscaboobs on May 24, 2018 9:31:15 GMT -6
Poofing cause this seems to be a work email This is what you get for trying to work and HIH simultaneously. just say no to work, PO.
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Post by ladybrienne on May 24, 2018 9:41:16 GMT -6
That is a little bit of a craxy pregly moment. Anywho. ::whispers:: yes this is accurate
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Post by miawallace on May 24, 2018 9:47:28 GMT -6
I mean yes, that was something of an "apology" .
But also we all gotta learn to get our cousins and second cousins and cousins once removed when shit happens at the time. She has a point. And frankly the track record here for that isn't the best. Like do you do this in our own life or are you just doing this here? Just be genuine all around yo. That's what's frustrating with all this To Me. If this doesn't apply to you then it doesn't. Simple as that. so I just hope everyone who is trying to make a points makes these points at home where it matters. I read a lot of "my uncle is a racists and he said this and that" "my daddy is one and it's hard". Like part of why I had a huge blowout with my brother recently is because he's the Percy Weasley of my family. Just be genuine is all. I don't need anecdotes.
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Post by miawallace on May 24, 2018 9:49:56 GMT -6
miawallace I appreciate your Persy Weasley analogy. Well he is Order of the Phoenix one too.
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piratecat
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Post by piratecat on May 24, 2018 10:12:45 GMT -6
It took me an embarrassingly long time to figure out who SayitaintSnow is. Welcome back!
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Post by Rusty Red on May 24, 2018 10:15:48 GMT -6
Y'all keep breaking the webz, dammit.
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pobre
Ruby
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Post by pobre on May 24, 2018 10:28:52 GMT -6
STILL WITH THE DEFENDING OF THIS BITCH?
Have a couple seats.
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Post by shan-ah-doo on May 24, 2018 10:30:28 GMT -6
I think you are giving too much credit to lack of malicious intent. I don't think that you or thibitch are bad, malicious people. But I think your jumping to defensive mode is clouding your ability to see that you can have racial biases or not understand why certain things are problematic (I mean I think applies to A LOT of us) or even be racist without malicious intent. Racism is so ingrained in all of us. The "but I'm not racist, I'm not a bad person" narrative is preventing you from being open to seeing that and working on fixing it. So you will go on and live your non-racist life for the most part, but will slip up every now and then and continue to hurt people and nothing will change. The fact that no one really hashed it out with you prior to this was a big part of the conversation that happened here. That many of us are willing to let things slide, because it's hard to have these conversations with people we like. Thank you for addressing this in the manner it should have initially been addressed in. I hear you. This kind of dialogue is much more conducive to constructive discussion and reflection. To be fair, you don’t get to decide how folks address shit that bothered them.
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Post by ladybrienne on May 24, 2018 10:34:58 GMT -6
This is some revisionist history if I've ever seen it. Please tell me how this is revisionist. I’m reading her I’m Here thread: Those were the people and the thoughts that was going on in my head when I typed out that statement. I didn’t realize that my statement would be taken as racist. I didn’t know it was racist. I continue to examine that thought and the feelings I have around that situation, which to me seems like a double edged sword- the damned if you do and damned if you don’t. I don’t want to be racist. I know that I am flawed and I am blinded in some ways by my privilege. I am so so sorry to the people I hurt, and especially to those that meant a lot to me. I thought maybe I had built up enough friendship and goodwill in my time here that we could eventually move past what happened, although I know it would never be forgotten. Right now I don’t think it is possible for us to move past it, and I think maybe it would be Better if I left. I don’t want my presence here to be a hurtful reminder of that conversation to people. Read more: howeverithappened.proboards.com/thread/15631/#ixzz5GR9wlr7zJust curious if you've read her comments in the meat washing thread yet?
I think if you read those comments, on top of the I'm Here thread, it might give you a better idea of just how.....not okay that situation was.
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Post by misskilljoy on May 24, 2018 10:35:35 GMT -6
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Post by miawallace on May 24, 2018 10:36:17 GMT -6
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Post by misskilljoy on May 24, 2018 10:39:14 GMT -6
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pobre
Ruby
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Post by pobre on May 24, 2018 10:40:46 GMT -6
STILL WITH THE DEFENDING OF THIS BITCH? Have a couple seats. No. But people have asked where the apology was. That is what I read / what I’m referring to when I say I saw her trying to apologize. Just stop. You're trying to speak on something you don't know about. Read this whole thread THEN comment, would be my suggestion.
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Risscaboobs
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Fuck is by far my favorite F word.
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Post by Risscaboobs on May 24, 2018 10:40:52 GMT -6
That is a little bit of a craxy pregly moment. Anywho. ::whispers:: yes this is accurate welcome back!
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Post by sheilathetank on May 24, 2018 10:41:41 GMT -6
@ctg30 you’re missing an important distinction. The parallel issue with you and tb is that you said something problematic and the large majority of this board let it slide and didn’t ever address it. So it not being addressed for days:weeks is actually the issue that was brought up (in addition to what you said.) What you originally said about the hair thread, essentially, was I wasn’t looking at this through the lens of race and why do you have to bring race into it. 🍍 🍊 Fineapple 🍍 🍊 and others quickly pointed out the privilege of that POV. It kind of sounds like your doing the same thing again. Maybe sit with that? And you probably want to carefully read the thisbitch stuff. If you think she’s not in the wrong, then we probably don’t have enough common ground to work from. At which point I acknowledged my lens of privilege, apologized and agreed that I had spoken out of line about that. Do we need everyone to stand up and properly flame the person in question for it to be considered adequately addressed? WHEN will the board consider any given issue going forward properly addressed? Take into mind not everyone reads every thread - shocking, right? - so that it may be missed initially by many. Do we create a sub board for transgressions? What it is the end goal here? Most likely never, and that's something you're going to have to live with.
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