Racism and other problematic areas in fandom

[athn64]

I started talking about the American wizardry that JK wrote in the Voldemort thread. It's important that we be aware of these things and confront them.

so let's have a conversation. Have you noticed problems in your fandoms? Which ones?

[athn64]

This one bugs me. I've argued with people before that 1. There are POC in Europe. and 2. They are made up stories that can be set anywhere in the world. The only one that is described as white in the story is Snow White. Plus, many of these stories have similar versions in other cultures. I took a fairy tales class in college and we discussed several.

[athn64]

Jun 3, 2017 13:12:10 GMT -6 🍍 🍊 Fineapple 🍍 🍊 said:

I love that you guys are talking about this. I'm going to bookmark to come back to this. athn64

I welcome your thoughts. I was thinking of linking this on the POC board if that's okay. This is a conversation that needs more opinions than just mine.

[bonzo]

This is something that I do want to learn more about for different fandoms. I read the article you linked about the Ilvermorny houses, athn64. I remember feeling like the Ilvermorny story was a bit too colonial, white-savior-complex and I wasn't a fan of that, but I hadn't done much extra reading on where JKR got her inspiration. I'm glad I understand more now!

[athn64]

MCU is another one. Dr. Strange and Iron Fist are foremost in my mind. Why are these characters played by white actors? Here is a perfect opportunity to add a more diverse cast of superheros.

Dr. Strange was originally an Asian character, albeit a racist stereotype. The Ancient One was a Tibetan monk, now played by a white woman. I have heard the reasonings for the change there, but they had other options. Why not use them?


Iron Fist could have been cast as an Asian-American. But instead we get a curly haired blonde guy.

[athn64]

Jun 3, 2017 14:15:28 GMT -6 bonzo said:

This is something that I do want to learn more about for different fandoms. I read the article you linked about the Ilvermorny houses, athn64 . I remember feeling like the Ilvermorny story was a bit too colonial, white-savior-complex and I wasn't a fan of that, but I hadn't done much extra reading on where JKR got her inspiration. I'm glad I understand more now!

I would definitely not have known if it hadn't been shared with me. I had heard of thunderbirds, but all of the others were new to me. I took the sorting quiz before I read the story and just felt awful about it afterwards. I will be a Ravenclaw forever, but I refuse to acknowledge my Ilvermorny "house". I haven't been back to Pottermore since.

[enchanted]

Now that I've read more, I'm so disappointed in Rowling for her American wizardry. She has the ability to create something wonderful and it feels like because she isn't American, she watched a few whitewashed movies and phoned it in instead of doing any research.

[athn64]

enchanted:


I feel like she just didn't care, because people said "hey, this isn't right, this is our culture, don't use it like that" and she just went on ahead.

nativeappropriations.com/2016/03/magic-in-north-america-part-1-ugh.html


I mean, I love HP and I think JK Rowling has done a lot of good in England, but she willfully went ahead with what she was doing and completely ignored people's valid complaints. She knew some of what she was doing.

ETA I have no idea what happened to my quote....

[enchanted]

GDI! I'm going to end up loving her and hating her all at the same time.

How can she call 45 out for his bigoted shit and yet not care when it was pointed out that she was appropriating/denigrating other people's history and beliefs?

[mischief]

wrong thread

[mischief]

I see a lot of it in Agents of Shield as well. The PoC characters almost always end up being evil, shown as angry, or killed off all together. This is an older article but I felt it was on point.


thenerdsofcolor.org/2015/03/31/whats-the-deal-with-the-poc-characters-on-agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d/

[athn64]

Jun 5, 2017 18:15:10 GMT -6 mischief said:

I see a lot of it in Agents of Shield as well. The PoC characters almost always end up being evil, shown as angry, or killed off all together. This is an older article but I felt it was on point.


thenerdsofcolor.org/2015/03/31/whats-the-deal-with-the-poc-characters-on-agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d/

Yeah. I haven't seen the newest season yet, but I agree. 

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}
I was so pissed when they killed off Trip. There was zero reason to do so.

[mischief]

OMG Yes!!!!! athn64

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}He has the best fucking backstory of them all. And it tied the show into the movies a bit too. He was just awesome in general, they could have done so much with him. And the way he died was so terrible and unnecessary and did nothing to further the plot. It was the beginning of the end for me.

[otters]

Not necessarily fandom but since I know some consider video games to be geeky, I've been watching people play the Friday the 13th game and looked into why most people play with the same characters. There are multiple stats for the counselors: Composure (help break free), Luck (weapon durability/increase stats), Intelligence (efficient repairs for the things that help them escape), Speed, Stamina (run longer), Stealth (harder for Jason to spot), and Strength. These can be strengths, weaknesses, or neither (average). See here There are two black counselors; both are strong in speed and stamina, but low in intelligence and stealth. They are the "athletes" of the bunch.

[billyhorrible]

Jun 5, 2017 18:15:10 GMT -6 mischief said:

I see a lot of it in Agents of Shield as well. The PoC characters almost always end up being evil, shown as angry, or killed off all together. This is an older article but I felt it was on point.


thenerdsofcolor.org/2015/03/31/whats-the-deal-with-the-poc-characters-on-agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d/

This was a really interesting read for me, mostly because I see the "bad guys" as being uber white (you know Nazis and all) and the good guys as being mostly PoC (Skye, Mac, Trip, May, Yoyo).  

But the article makes me feel as though I was ignoring a lot of the characterizations of these people.  And it does continue into more recent seasons, like casting Parminder Nagra as part of  the Watchdogs.

[spooko]

I'm not sure if this is the same conversation or a different one but I read an "article" or something recently on buzzfeed where they talked about casting some upcoming super heros and that there was a barrage of complaints that the chosen people weren't ethnic enough. Not a high enough percentage of Native American and too light to be Brazilian. I agree that these parts should be cast by people representative of the correct heritages. It made me feel some kind of way on behalf of my kids who are really fair and maybe won't be so accepted from that half of their ancestry, though, just based on looks. Maybe that's a dumb thing to be concerned about because the other version of prejudice would be worse for them to deal with?

[lucilleaustero]

Jun 6, 2017 11:56:42 GMT -6 spooko said:

I'm not sure if this is the same conversation or a different one but I read an "article" or something recently on buzzfeed where they talked about casting some upcoming super heros and that there was a barrage of complaints that the chosen people weren't ethnic enough. Not a high enough percentage of Native American and too light to be Brazilian. I agree that these parts should be cast by people representative of the correct heritages. It made me feel some kind of way on behalf of my kids who are really fair and maybe won't be so accepted from that half of their ancestry, though, just based on looks. Maybe that's a dumb thing to be concerned about because the other version of prejudice would be worse for them to deal with?

I don't know enough about fandoms to comment on racism in fandom (just come in here sometimes to see if anybody posted anything Potter related),  but this is kind of me too. My husband is Middle Eastern. My daughter looks like him and is tan and has very dark eyes and when I see her with pics of her cousins from his side, they all look so much alike. My father is Irish and my DD constantly gets comments about how she does not look like any of the other cousins. Not in a mean way, more just observation, but she is 5.5, think they would be over it by now.

My son is super fair, blonde hair, hazel eyes, rosy cheeks and lips. He is an Irish cherub. DH's family constantly comments on his looks and his hair because he is one of only three blondes in a family of many many people and he is by far the fairest.

For both there is so much emphasis by family on how they look nothing like their cousins. Again, not in a mean way, but it is getting old quickly.

I worry more for my daughter about it, since there is such an anti-ME sentiment in our country right now.

[CurlieWhirlie]

Jun 6, 2017 11:39:35 GMT -6 billyhorrible said:

Jun 5, 2017 18:15:10 GMT -6 mischief said:

I see a lot of it in Agents of Shield as well. The PoC characters almost always end up being evil, shown as angry, or killed off all together. This is an older article but I felt it was on point.


thenerdsofcolor.org/2015/03/31/whats-the-deal-with-the-poc-characters-on-agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d/

This was a really interesting read for me, mostly because I see the "bad guys" as being uber white (you know Nazis and all) and the good guys as being mostly PoC (Skye, Mac, Trip, May, Yoyo).  

But the article makes me feel as though I was ignoring a lot of the characterizations of these people.  And it does continue into more recent seasons, like casting Parminder Nagra as part of  the Watchdogs.

This is me, too. I always thought it did pretty will in the diversity department, but I also ignored the character traits ascribed to the POC on the show. It's an aspect of diversity in entertainment I hadn't considered before, but now I will. Thanks.

A good friend of mine works for a non-profit dedicated to representation of Asians in the entertainment industry, so through her I have become very exposed to the intense whitewashing of Asian characters in film and TV. It's really disgusting. Like Scarlett Johansen in Ghost in the Shell. WTF? And Matt Damon in that movie about the Great Wall of China that I didn't even bother to read the plot for because NO. 

And not for nothing, but Disney's Brave is set in Scotland, not Ireland. Obviously not relevant to *this* discussion, and I know no one on this board wrote that, but it was bugging me!

[athn64]

Jun 6, 2017 11:56:42 GMT -6 spooko said:

I'm not sure if this is the same conversation or a different one but I read an "article" or something recently on buzzfeed where they talked about casting some upcoming super heros and that there was a barrage of complaints that the chosen people weren't ethnic enough. Not a high enough percentage of Native American and too light to be Brazilian. I agree that these parts should be cast by people representative of the correct heritages. It made me feel some kind of way on behalf of my kids who are really fair and maybe won't be so accepted from that half of their ancestry, though, just based on looks. Maybe that's a dumb thing to be concerned about because the other version of prejudice would be worse for them to deal with?

In a similar vein, I read this article about actors and actresses who have both black and latinx heritage. They are often dismissed from roles for latin characters because they "don't look" the part. There's definitely a stereotypical look that Hollywood goes for, and it does a disservice to those who don't fit any one bill.

[bonzo]

Jun 6, 2017 11:39:35 GMT -6 billyhorrible said:

Jun 5, 2017 18:15:10 GMT -6 mischief said:

I see a lot of it in Agents of Shield as well. The PoC characters almost always end up being evil, shown as angry, or killed off all together. This is an older article but I felt it was on point.


thenerdsofcolor.org/2015/03/31/whats-the-deal-with-the-poc-characters-on-agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d/

This was a really interesting read for me, mostly because I see the "bad guys" as being uber white (you know Nazis and all) and the good guys as being mostly PoC (Skye, Mac, Trip, May, Yoyo).  

But the article makes me feel as though I was ignoring a lot of the characterizations of these people.  And it does continue into more recent seasons, like casting Parminder Nagra as part of  the Watchdogs.

While I think the article oversimplifies a bit, it definitely brings up the point that on-screen quotas are not all there is to diversity. And at the end of the latest season, I definitely did think to myself "they can't kill Mack, they've already killed Trip!"

[athn64]

Jun 6, 2017 15:49:35 GMT -6 CurlieWhirlie said:

Jun 6, 2017 11:39:35 GMT -6 billyhorrible said:

This was a really interesting read for me, mostly because I see the "bad guys" as being uber white (you know Nazis and all) and the good guys as being mostly PoC (Skye, Mac, Trip, May, Yoyo).  

But the article makes me feel as though I was ignoring a lot of the characterizations of these people.  And it does continue into more recent seasons, like casting Parminder Nagra as part of  the Watchdogs.

This is me, too. I always thought it did pretty will in the diversity department, but I also ignored the character traits ascribed to the POC on the show. It's an aspect of diversity in entertainment I hadn't considered before, but now I will. Thanks.

A good friend of mine works for a non-profit dedicated to representation of Asians in the entertainment industry, so through her I have become very exposed to the intense whitewashing of Asian characters in film and TV. It's really disgusting. Like Scarlett Johansen in Ghost in the Shell. WTF? And Matt Damon in that movie about the Great Wall of China that I didn't even bother to read the plot for because NO. 

And not for nothing, but Disney's Brave is set in Scotland, not Ireland. Obviously not relevant to *this* discussion, and I know no one on this board wrote that, but it was bugging me!

Not really relevant, but Matt Damon's character is from Europe in that movie. I did not see it and have no desire too, but he's supposed to be a foreigner.

And the ScarJo thing really bugs me. There are some great Japanese actresses who could have fit that role. 

[CurlieWhirlie]

Jun 6, 2017 16:41:48 GMT -6 athn64 said:

Jun 6, 2017 15:49:35 GMT -6 CurlieWhirlie said:

This is me, too. I always thought it did pretty will in the diversity department, but I also ignored the character traits ascribed to the POC on the show. It's an aspect of diversity in entertainment I hadn't considered before, but now I will. Thanks.

A good friend of mine works for a non-profit dedicated to representation of Asians in the entertainment industry, so through her I have become very exposed to the intense whitewashing of Asian characters in film and TV. It's really disgusting. Like Scarlett Johansen in Ghost in the Shell. WTF? And Matt Damon in that movie about the Great Wall of China that I didn't even bother to read the plot for because NO. 

And not for nothing, but Disney's Brave is set in Scotland, not Ireland. Obviously not relevant to *this* discussion, and I know no one on this board wrote that, but it was bugging me!

Not really relevant, but Matt Damon's character is from Europe in that movie. I did not see it and have no desire too, but he's supposed to be a foreigner.

And the ScarJo thing really bugs me. There are some great Japanese actresses who could have fit that role. 

Thanks, I had no idea. It probably says a lot about this pervasive problem that I saw the movie poster and thought "huh, they cast Matt Damon as a Chinese man. I believe it."

[athn64]

Here's a tumblr that focuses more on the MCU stuff, including SHIELD and the other tv shows:
mcufandomhatespeopleofcolor.tumblr.com/


I have to admit that I didn't give much thought to the Maximoffs in AOU. Scarlet Witch is my favorite mutant so I was excited to have her in there, but having traditionally Jewish characters work for Nazis is really wrong.

[Cheshie6]

Jun 6, 2017 16:19:06 GMT -6 athn64 said:

Jun 6, 2017 11:56:42 GMT -6 spooko said:

I'm not sure if this is the same conversation or a different one but I read an "article" or something recently on buzzfeed where they talked about casting some upcoming super heros and that there was a barrage of complaints that the chosen people weren't ethnic enough. Not a high enough percentage of Native American and too light to be Brazilian. I agree that these parts should be cast by people representative of the correct heritages. It made me feel some kind of way on behalf of my kids who are really fair and maybe won't be so accepted from that half of their ancestry, though, just based on looks. Maybe that's a dumb thing to be concerned about because the other version of prejudice would be worse for them to deal with?

In a similar vein, I read this article about actors and actresses who have both black and latinx heritage. They are often dismissed from roles for latin characters because they "don't look" the part. There's definitely a stereotypical look that Hollywood goes for, and it does a disservice to those who don't fit any one bill.

Their statements resonate with me! I'm white, black Puerto Rican (grandpa African American, grandma Puerto Rican) and I get "challenged" all the time. By Puerto Ricans I get quizzed on Spanish, food, etc. I'm not black enough (even for my own half sister) who makes fun of the fact that like other black girls, I wanted the box braid extensions that Janet Jackson had. Or of the corn rows mom put in my hair! (FYI we have the same mom!?! Why would she do my hair differently) But my skin is too dark to be white!?! I have 3b-3c hair and I guess it's enviable. My sister made me watch Roots and Queen (both Alex Haley) to remind me of how I would have faired before the civil rights movements. For some of us there's no winning or community.

I think Disney is trying to get better but doing a poor job! Tiana had a great movie and I love the music but because people didn't turn out or buy it, she's been left by the wayside. Hispanics have Elena and Sofia but why are they only TV shows! I'm glad Elena is super popular disputes not having a movie.

Doctor who is another one that seemed white washed! The black companions didn't really stick around long.

[athn64]

Jun 7, 2017 17:44:25 GMT -6 Cheshie6 said:

Jun 6, 2017 16:19:06 GMT -6 athn64 said:

In a similar vein, I read this article about actors and actresses who have both black and latinx heritage. They are often dismissed from roles for latin characters because they "don't look" the part. There's definitely a stereotypical look that Hollywood goes for, and it does a disservice to those who don't fit any one bill.

Their statements resonate with me! I'm white, black Puerto Rican (grandpa African American, grandma Puerto Rican) and I get "challenged" all the time. By Puerto Ricans I get quizzed on Spanish, food, etc. I'm not black enough (even for my own half sister) who makes fun of the fact that like other black girls, I wanted the box braid extensions that Janet Jackson had. Or of the corn rows mom put in my hair! (FYI we have the same mom!?! Why would she do my hair differently) But my skin is too dark to be white!?! I have 3b-3c hair and I guess it's enviable. My sister made me watch Roots and Queen (both Alex Haley) to remind me of how I would have faired before the civil rights movements. For some of us there's no winning or community.

I think Disney is trying to get better but doing a poor job! Tiana had a great movie and I love the music but because people didn't turn out or buy it, she's been left by the wayside. Hispanics have Elena and Sofia but why are they only TV shows! I'm glad Elena is super popular disputes not having a movie.

Doctor who is another one that seemed white washed! The black companions didn't really stick around long.

I'm sorry that you have that experience.

And Disney is working on it, which is good. I do hear a lot of criticism for Tiana though, as she's the only black princess and she spent the majority of the movie as a frog. There's still a lot of room to improve. Moana is a good start, though I have read that the abscence of a strong female counterpart to Maui makes it not ring true to the culture. Still I'm glad they actually cast Pacific Islanders as the voice actors, and that Moana is herself a strong female lead. She's being raised to be the chieftan to her people and not just the chief's wife. 

[CurlieWhirlie]

How do people generally feel about Moana in this context? Personally she ticks all my boxes, but I admit to not doing my research.

[athn64]

Jun 7, 2017 20:48:36 GMT -6 CurlieWhirlie said:

How do people generally feel about Moana in this context? Personally she ticks all my boxes, but I admit to not doing my research.

I love Moana. And like I said, I think it's a good start. But that's all it is. A start. Here's a good article by an indigenous writer talking about her feelings on the movie: www.salon.com/2016/12/03/with-disneys-moana-hollywood-almost-gets-it-right-indigenous-people-weigh-in/. She finds it genuinely positive to have Moana, but touches on some of the problematic areas. 

And here's a more scholarly view: www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-story-moana-and-maui-holds-against-cultural-truths-180961258/

I think it's important to be aware that it's not perfect. And to listen to people who voice these criticisms. But I will still enjoy the movie.

[puff]

I haven't read the cultural problems with Moana but I love the movie. We were at Disney in June and they had nothing for her. My daughters were disappointed. They didn't spend a lot of money promoting her which is sad. I think the movie and songs were much better than Frozen.

[athn64]

Jun 8, 2017 10:43:12 GMT -6 puff said:

I haven't read the cultural problems with Moana but I love the movie. We were at Disney in June and they had nothing for her. My daughters were disappointed. They didn't spend a lot of money promoting her which is sad. I think the movie and songs were much better than Frozen.

I'm somewhat surprised by the lack of marketing. Moana is a whole lot better than frozen

[CurlieWhirlie]

Jun 8, 2017 11:52:35 GMT -6 athn64 said:

Jun 8, 2017 10:43:12 GMT -6 puff said:

I haven't read the cultural problems with Moana but I love the movie. We were at Disney in June and they had nothing for her. My daughters were disappointed. They didn't spend a lot of money promoting her which is sad. I think the movie and songs were much better than Frozen.

I'm somewhat surprised by the lack of marketing. Moana is a whole lot better than frozen

So much better than Frozen! Remember when Frozen was touted as a feminist story, because the "true love" was between the sisters?