origami
Amethyst
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Post by origami on Oct 9, 2023 9:04:39 GMT -6
I'm going to take care with how I say this because I don't have time to be here today, but this feels very similar to talking points about black men in America should have just complied. Palestinian children have been imprisoned, tortured, and slaughtered at a rate far exceeding this event. This event is awful. Hamas is awful. However Hamas won't pay, Palestinians will. They are called animals. The current Zionist regime would prefer that Palestine didnt exist. 100 children being held is unconscionable. Saying "I hear those 4000 were being held for crimes," Feels like a convenient statement. Palestine has been attacked continuously for generations. Even recently. We are allowed to express concern that world leaders are saying retaliation is ok when they barely breathe a whisper when it happens unprovoked the other direction. I didn’t “hear” they committed crimes. A number of prisoners have been released over the years, their names are known. They are members of Hamas. They went right back to Hamas. I am not sure what that has to do with the fact that Black men are unfairly and disproportionately jailed in this country. I don’t think members of a terror organization that beheads gay people should walk free. I don’t think Black men should be jailed over a dime bag. I don’t think children should be jailed. All of those things can be true. I am heartbroken that this resulted in more Palestinian deaths. They didn’t ask for this. I keep asking what the solution is but no one can tell me. But surely one cannot sit back while women and children are being held captive. Videos of toddlers crying out for their mothers posted on social media. Calls made to their families to hear their daughter’s rape. It’s horrific. Never once have I blamed Palestine. I blame Hamas. They brought this on. Palestine will never be free while Hamas is in power. And no one will be safe. That’s it. Blame Hamas. And there are 12,000 children that have been held. That's not ok. That's never ok. This isn't one sided, it's speaking truth. I used an example that is recognizable because it's similar. Holding for trumped up charges to get political points. In the past two years entire neighborhoods of Palestinians have been forcefully evicted from their homes. Children have been killed and held. We have the same hurt though our anger is different. Not to put words in her mouth but I think babybean is likely calling out that when this happens the other direction there is little more than silence. Both sides are commiting war crimes. Both sides. We have to acknowledge this or else it won't likely ever end. Though I agree with you I don't know how it ends.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 9:09:40 GMT -6
I am heartbroken that this resulted in more Palestinian deaths. They didn’t ask for this. I keep asking what the solution is but no one can tell me. But surely one cannot sit back while women and children are being held captive. Videos of toddlers crying out for their mothers posted on social media. Calls made to their families to hear their daughter’s rape. It’s horrific. Never once have I blamed Palestine. I blame Hamas. They brought this on. Palestine will never be free while Hamas is in power. And no one will be safe. That’s it. Blame Hamas. Palestine wasn’t free before the existence of Hamas.
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Cher
Global Moderator
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Post by Cher on Oct 9, 2023 9:20:51 GMT -6
I didn’t “hear” they committed crimes. A number of prisoners have been released over the years, their names are known. They are members of Hamas. They went right back to Hamas. I am not sure what that has to do with the fact that Black men are unfairly and disproportionately jailed in this country. I don’t think members of a terror organization that beheads gay people should walk free. I don’t think Black men should be jailed over a dime bag. I don’t think children should be jailed. All of those things can be true. I am heartbroken that this resulted in more Palestinian deaths. They didn’t ask for this. I keep asking what the solution is but no one can tell me. But surely one cannot sit back while women and children are being held captive. Videos of toddlers crying out for their mothers posted on social media. Calls made to their families to hear their daughter’s rape. It’s horrific. Never once have I blamed Palestine. I blame Hamas. They brought this on. Palestine will never be free while Hamas is in power. And no one will be safe. That’s it. Blame Hamas. And there are 12,000 children that have been held. That's not ok. That's never ok. This isn't one sided, it's speaking truth. I used an example that is recognizable because it's similar. Holding for trumped up charges to get political points. In the past two years entire neighborhoods of Palestinians have been forcefully evicted from their homes. Children have been killed and held. We have the same hurt though our anger is different. Not to put words in her mouth but I think babybean is likely calling out that when this happens the other direction there is little more than silence. Both sides are commiting war crimes. Both sides. We have to acknowledge this or else it won't likely ever end. Though I agree with you I don't know how it ends. And this is why I keep saying it’s separate and you can be pro-Palestine and not agree with what happened this weekend. This is why I myself have said multiple times that I can’t and won’t defend all of Israel’s actions over the past decades. I’m not coming in here and saying “Go Israel!” I acknowledge this is a long, complex conflict. But Hamas is the gasoline. And they are not interested in a two-state solution. They want to murder Jews. This isn’t a situation that requires context or whataboutism, this was a terror attack. And now innocent Palestinians will die. If there is ever a chance at coexisting, Hamas cannot be in power. I personally know posters here are scared and hurt at things said. Israel may have much more war power compared to Palestine but Jews as a whole remain a small, persecuted sect of people. The JCC I attend has already sent out an email about beefed up security (in addition to the guards and locked doors that always exist). A man held up the Nazi flag at a pro-Israel rally in NYC yesterday. I know multiple people trying to get out of Israel right now. So, it’s important to me that my people know I support them, without a “but” or a “both sides”. I can argue how Israel has handled the conflict another day. But right now, while mothers are begging for the return of their babies and my friends are scared to take their kids to school this week, it’s important to condemn Hamas’ actions.
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origami
Amethyst
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Post by origami on Oct 9, 2023 9:27:41 GMT -6
Cher I hear you. And I agree. I think it's ok to acknowledge the awfulness and the pain. I think as a global society we're just now learning how to separate anti-Semitism from anti-zionism and how to separate being pro Palestine from anti Hamas. The just plain coexist. And it doesn't help that the new hard right Israeli government has all but dismantled democracy there--the cynic in me sees the government (NOT the people to be clear) seeing this as an opportunity much as our government has in past conflicts. tensions are so high it's hard to see this do anything but escalate. A lot of people will die and that's terrifying.
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Cher
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Post by Cher on Oct 9, 2023 9:32:24 GMT -6
I think as a global society we're just now learning how to separate anti-Semitism from anti-zionism and how to separate being pro Palestine from anti Hamas. . Yes. Yes. Yes. I think I should have just written this.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 11:52:08 GMT -6
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sifl
Platinum
Posts: 1,410 Likes: 5,598
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Post by sifl on Oct 9, 2023 16:20:14 GMT -6
Wow, truly gross ww bs going on in here. Cher SweetPotato just STFU about shit you are ignorant about mmkay? I mean that with all sincerity, now and in the future.
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Cher
Global Moderator
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Post by Cher on Oct 9, 2023 16:33:48 GMT -6
Wow, truly gross ww bs going on in here. Cher SweetPotato just STFU about shit you are ignorant about mmkay? I mean that with all sincerity, now and in the future. It’s alarming to know even though you don’t post here, you still stalk me. As I have said every time you have an outburst, please leave me alone. You make me very uncomfortable. I mean that with all sincerity, now and in the future.
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Minerva
Ruby
Posts: 15,381 Likes: 67,036
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Post by Minerva on Oct 9, 2023 16:52:11 GMT -6
Wow, truly gross ww bs going on in here. Cher SweetPotato just STFU about shit you are ignorant about mmkay? I mean that with all sincerity, now and in the future. This is a complex and painful topic for many of us who are or have loved ones who are Israeli, Palestinian, or Holocaust survivors. Asking members to STFU for voicing a differing opinion is uncalled for here.
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origami
Amethyst
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Post by origami on Oct 9, 2023 16:58:31 GMT -6
Wow, truly gross ww bs going on in here. Cher SweetPotato just STFU about shit you are ignorant about mmkay? I mean that with all sincerity, now and in the future. Truly, from the bottom of my heart, get bent. It's actually white women like you who bring only inflammatory accusations and nothing of substance to these conversations that we can't actually have these nuanced conversations around these topics. Your quarterly performative outbursts are also white woman nonsense and in my mind worse because all you serve to do with your purity politics is shut down conversations that we desperately need to have.
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jaygee
Diamond
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Post by jaygee on Oct 9, 2023 17:06:16 GMT -6
I’ve been quiet because I always feel I have so much to learn when it comes to conflicts in the Middle East. I have opinions but they don’t really matter all that much. I mostly just have feelings and sadness at the utter horror of it all.
I appreciated the conversation earlier today as people were putting their minds and hearts into expressing themselves. I agreed with some points, disagreed with others, and found myself pondering a whole lot more. I’m glad we can hold space to talk about the hard stuff. I know feathers were ruffled earlier but I think it was almost entirely respectful and coming from a place of humanity.
Unless someone is doing an -ism or spreading disinformation I don’t think anyone should shut up or stop discussing this.
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Post by babybean on Oct 9, 2023 17:50:35 GMT -6
I’ve been quiet because I always feel I have so much to learn when it comes to conflicts in the Middle East. I have opinions but they don’t really matter all that much. I mostly just have feelings and sadness at the utter horror of it all. I appreciated the conversation earlier today as people were putting their minds and hearts into expressing themselves. I agreed with some points, disagreed with others, and found myself pondering a whole lot more. I’m glad we can hold space to talk about the hard stuff. I know feathers were ruffled earlier but I think it was almost entirely respectful and coming from a place of humanity. Unless someone is doing an -ism or spreading disinformation I don’t think anyone should shut up or stop discussing this. Being accused of finding the situation funny was actually unsettling for me, and then my reaction was followed up with “why are you talking to me like this?”, which felt white tears adjacent. That shut the conversation down on my end.
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Cher
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Post by Cher on Oct 9, 2023 17:58:57 GMT -6
I’ve been quiet because I always feel I have so much to learn when it comes to conflicts in the Middle East. I have opinions but they don’t really matter all that much. I mostly just have feelings and sadness at the utter horror of it all. I appreciated the conversation earlier today as people were putting their minds and hearts into expressing themselves. I agreed with some points, disagreed with others, and found myself pondering a whole lot more. I’m glad we can hold space to talk about the hard stuff. I know feathers were ruffled earlier but I think it was almost entirely respectful and coming from a place of humanity. Unless someone is doing an -ism or spreading disinformation I don’t think anyone should shut up or stop discussing this. Being accused of finding the situation funny was actually unsettling for me, and then my reaction was followed up with “why are you talking to me like this?”, which felt white tears adjacent. That shut the conversation down on my end. If you want to rehash, I said you found it comical, which is literally the wording you used. Since tone is lost, I wasn’t saying why are you talking to me like this as if I was a victim. I was saying it because you were coming at me saying “what the fuck are you talking about? You live in a privileged bubble” and I did not want to be spoken to like that.
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Post by babybean on Oct 9, 2023 18:01:36 GMT -6
Being accused of finding the situation funny was actually unsettling for me, and then my reaction was followed up with “why are you talking to me like this?”, which felt white tears adjacent. That shut the conversation down on my end. If you want to rehash, I said you found it comical, which is literally the wording you used. Since tone is lost, I wasn’t saying why are you talking to me like this as if I was a victim. I was saying it because you were coming at me saying “what the fuck are you talking about? You live in a privileged bubble” and I did not want to be spoken to like that. nah, you said “Sorry you think it’s funny, I don’t.” ETA: which is what the “wtf are you talking about” was in reply to.
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jaygee
Diamond
Posts: 28,309 Likes: 220,025
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Post by jaygee on Oct 9, 2023 18:04:36 GMT -6
I’ve been quiet because I always feel I have so much to learn when it comes to conflicts in the Middle East. I have opinions but they don’t really matter all that much. I mostly just have feelings and sadness at the utter horror of it all. I appreciated the conversation earlier today as people were putting their minds and hearts into expressing themselves. I agreed with some points, disagreed with others, and found myself pondering a whole lot more. I’m glad we can hold space to talk about the hard stuff. I know feathers were ruffled earlier but I think it was almost entirely respectful and coming from a place of humanity. Unless someone is doing an -ism or spreading disinformation I don’t think anyone should shut up or stop discussing this. Being accused of finding the situation funny was actually unsettling for me, and then my reaction was followed up with “why are you talking to me like this?”, which felt white tears adjacent. That shut the conversation down on my end. I’m sorry. Thank you for letting me know your feelings. I appreciate your view point and I don’t think you find anything about this situation funny.
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Cher
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Post by Cher on Oct 9, 2023 18:12:14 GMT -6
If you want to rehash, I said you found it comical, which is literally the wording you used. Since tone is lost, I wasn’t saying why are you talking to me like this as if I was a victim. I was saying it because you were coming at me saying “what the fuck are you talking about? You live in a privileged bubble” and I did not want to be spoken to like that. nah, you said “Sorry you think it’s funny, I don’t.” ETA: which is what the “wtf are you talking about” was in reply to. I think you caught that before I edited but I did write that and deleted it immediately upon posting. I came here yesterday after seeing a video of a girl I have known since birth hiding from Hamas. I saw your comments and it really upset me. As soon as I posted it, I realized I was being unnecessarily mean and that wasn’t my intention. I apologize, it was out of line.
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Post by babybean on Oct 9, 2023 20:06:33 GMT -6
nah, you said “Sorry you think it’s funny, I don’t.” ETA: which is what the “wtf are you talking about” was in reply to. I think you caught that before I edited but I did write that and deleted it immediately upon posting. I came here yesterday after seeing a video of a girl I have known since birth hiding from Hamas. I saw your comments and it really upset me. As soon as I posted it, I realized I was being unnecessarily mean and that wasn’t my intention. I apologize, it was out of line. I actually don’t buy this because your initial response was to take my use of comical out of context, again. You didn’t realize I quoted what you said before you deleted it.
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Cher
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Post by Cher on Oct 9, 2023 20:13:39 GMT -6
I think you caught that before I edited but I did write that and deleted it immediately upon posting. I came here yesterday after seeing a video of a girl I have known since birth hiding from Hamas. I saw your comments and it really upset me. As soon as I posted it, I realized I was being unnecessarily mean and that wasn’t my intention. I apologize, it was out of line. I actually don’t buy this because your initial response was to take my use of comical out of context, again. You didn’t realize I quoted what you said before you deleted it. Yes, I was upset by your comment that Israel saying they were at war was comical to you. I still am. I found a lot of your initial comments to be hurtful to me. That said, my “funny” comment was unnecessary. I don’t think you find it funny in a ha ha way. So I deleted it. It wasn’t my intention to be mean to you.
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dc2london
Admin
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Post by dc2london on Oct 10, 2023 9:21:29 GMT -6
Rep Goldman and his family, as well as Senator Booker, were safely evacuated from Israel over the weekend
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