McBenny
Unicorn
#sickomode
Posts: 52,390 Likes: 297,342
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Post by McBenny on Nov 29, 2017 12:46:36 GMT -6
If the person lived alone they would have to either do these same tasks or hire someone to do so. I don't entertain the "I don't know how" bullshit from grown ass people.
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Post by adorebel on Nov 29, 2017 13:13:34 GMT -6
EEEESH my feminist insides don't love this. I really think we do internalize a lot of society's values, including having to "be nice" when we demand equality from our partners, as well as the sense that we can "do it all" and take on more and more as women (the BS of "lean in"). Studies have shown that men report doing 50% of the household labor even when they actually do about 20% of it. Men chronically overestimate their contributions, whereas women chronically underestimate theirs. I agree that one has to have an open conversation with one's partner in order to get to equality in the household, but I wouldn't blame individual women in individual households because they can't push hard enough or because their husband has internalized sexist norms enough to see his wife as a nag or to think he's doing more than he actually is. That's on you if you internalize what society says. I work 55-60 hours a week, MH also works FT, if I need something done I look to the other parent in my home and not fucking society. Also did you read the part where I said households? Cause you are still flapping about society when I am sitting here telling you society doesn't run shit in my house. If you are unhappy about something in your life who is it on to change it? You or society? Are you going to wait until society changes their views to make changes? I don't know. I am not. So no lady, I don't feel I need to be nice to ask for what I need from my fucking life partner. This isn't a coworker. This isn't a first date. This is a life partner. We have probably licked and sucked all up and down on one another and I can't ask for what I need? LOL So take your studies and wipe your ass with them. What does a study have to do with my post? Nothing. I said it's on you and how you run your household. Maybe you are a spectator in your life. I am not that bitch. Again, I feel it is on us to say what we need from the people in our lives. If we don't, how will they know? Out in the world is one thing. In your home, where you run this? Nah. As a lead member of the household I feel it is on you and your partner regardless of gender to decide the division of labor. You don't eat shit and worry about being nice or what society says. These are the kind of things you get to know about your person during the dating stage and shit before you decide to have kids and comingle households IMO. Don't argue with someone about their opinion. It's weird. This feels like... a lot of reaction. I actually didn't say anything about my life or relationship with my partner. I just said I don't think we should blame individuals for not always being able to change other individuals, because yeah, individual biases and societal biases are intertwined, not separate.
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McBenny
Unicorn
#sickomode
Posts: 52,390 Likes: 297,342
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Post by McBenny on Nov 29, 2017 13:18:51 GMT -6
That's on you if you internalize what society says. I work 55-60 hours a week, MH also works FT, if I need something done I look to the other parent in my home and not fucking society. Also did you read the part where I said households? Cause you are still flapping about society when I am sitting here telling you society doesn't run shit in my house. If you are unhappy about something in your life who is it on to change it? You or society? Are you going to wait until society changes their views to make changes? I don't know. I am not. So no lady, I don't feel I need to be nice to ask for what I need from my fucking life partner. This isn't a coworker. This isn't a first date. This is a life partner. We have probably licked and sucked all up and down on one another and I can't ask for what I need? LOL So take your studies and wipe your ass with them. What does a study have to do with my post? Nothing. I said it's on you and how you run your household. Maybe you are a spectator in your life. I am not that bitch. Again, I feel it is on us to say what we need from the people in our lives. If we don't, how will they know? Out in the world is one thing. In your home, where you run this? Nah. As a lead member of the household I feel it is on you and your partner regardless of gender to decide the division of labor. You don't eat shit and worry about being nice or what society says. These are the kind of things you get to know about your person during the dating stage and shit before you decide to have kids and comingle households IMO. Don't argue with someone about their opinion. It's weird. This feels like... a lot of reaction. I actually didn't say anything about my life or relationship with my partner. I just said I don't think we should blame individuals for not always being able to change other individuals, because yeah, individual biases and societal biases are intertwined, not separate. As the head of your home, if you don't know how to handle biases in your home. There is a larger issue.
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McBenny
Unicorn
#sickomode
Posts: 52,390 Likes: 297,342
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Post by McBenny on Nov 29, 2017 13:21:53 GMT -6
LOL at a lot of reaction.
#mustbenew #havewemet
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Post by summerbabe on Nov 29, 2017 13:22:11 GMT -6
This is probably creepy McBenny, but back when I used to read the board early on when I was frustrated with shit at home, I will say that you posting about yr marriage almost-- gave me a model for what things could look like when things weren't as equal for me. Like with this "Again, I feel it is on us to say what we need from the people in our lives. If we don't, how will they know?" It's common sense, but that's not where I was at. I had to read stuff like that when I was sleep deprived with an infant because I definitely didn't see it always modeled around me (growing up, etc). So belated thanks for that-- it genuinely was helpful to see your perspective when things weren't really balanced. Like oh, it doesn't have to be this way.
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McBenny
Unicorn
#sickomode
Posts: 52,390 Likes: 297,342
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Post by McBenny on Nov 29, 2017 13:25:17 GMT -6
This is probably creepy McBenny , but back when I used to read the board early on when I was frustrated with shit at home, I will say that you posting about yr marriage almost-- gave me a model for what things could look like when things weren't as equal for me. Like with this "Again, I feel it is on us to say what we need from the people in our lives. If we don't, how will they know?" It's common sense, but that's not where I was at. I had to read stuff like that when I was sleep deprived with an infant because I definitely didn't see it always modeled around me (growing up, etc). So belated thanks for that-- it genuinely was helpful to see your perspective when things weren't really balanced. Like oh, it doesn't have to be this way. Don't get me wrong. It took me a while to get there. I have been young and dumb. Thankfully this was before MH. I am just trying to save y'all some time and angst.
Do better and be better than me. Not that I am better than anyone.
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piratecat
Diamond
Posts: 36,253 Likes: 144,691
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Post by piratecat on Nov 29, 2017 13:30:57 GMT -6
EEEESH my feminist insides don't love this. I really think we do internalize a lot of society's values, including having to "be nice" when we demand equality from our partners, as well as the sense that we can "do it all" and take on more and more as women (the BS of "lean in"). Studies have shown that men report doing 50% of the household labor even when they actually do about 20% of it. Men chronically overestimate their contributions, whereas women chronically underestimate theirs. I agree that one has to have an open conversation with one's partner in order to get to equality in the household, but I wouldn't blame individual women in individual households because they can't push hard enough or because their husband has internalized sexist norms enough to see his wife as a nag or to think he's doing more than he actually is. That's on you if you internalize what society says. I work 55-60 hours a week, MH also works FT, if I need something done I look to the other parent in my home and not fucking society. Also did you read the part where I said households? Cause you are still flapping about society when I am sitting here telling you society doesn't run shit in my house. If you are unhappy about something in your life who is it on to change it? You or society? Are you going to wait until society changes their views to make changes? I don't know. I am not. So no lady, I don't feel I need to be nice to ask for what I need from my fucking life partner. This isn't a coworker. This isn't a first date. This is a life partner. We have probably licked and sucked all up and down on one another and I can't ask for what I need? LOL So take your studies and wipe your ass with them. What does a study have to do with my post? Nothing. I said it's on you and how you run your household. Maybe you are a spectator in your life. I am not that bitch. Again, I feel it is on us to say what we need from the people in our lives. If we don't, how will they know? Out in the world is one thing. In your home, where you run this? Nah. As a lead member of the household I feel it is on you and your partner regardless of gender to decide the division of labor. You don't eat shit and worry about being nice or what society says. These are the kind of things you get to know about your person during the dating stage and shit before you decide to have kids and comingle households IMO. Don't argue with someone about their opinion. It's weird. While I agree with some of the things you said in theory and for myself - it's easy for me to say "just don't put up with that bullshit" - I just don't think it is so easy in practice for everyone, especially when you've lived your whole life with sexism as the norm in your household and all around you.
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JukEboX
Sapphire
Posts: 2,505 Likes: 5,338
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Post by JukEboX on Nov 29, 2017 13:36:34 GMT -6
This is probably creepy McBenny , but back when I used to read the board early on when I was frustrated with shit at home, I will say that you posting about yr marriage almost-- gave me a model for what things could look like when things weren't as equal for me. Like with this "Again, I feel it is on us to say what we need from the people in our lives. If we don't, how will they know?" It's common sense, but that's not where I was at. I had to read stuff like that when I was sleep deprived with an infant because I definitely didn't see it always modeled around me (growing up, etc). So belated thanks for that-- it genuinely was helpful to see your perspective when things weren't really balanced. Like oh, it doesn't have to be this way. Don't get me wrong. It took me a while to get there. I have been young and dumb. Thankfully this was before MH. I am just trying to save y'all some time and angst.
Do better and be better than me. Not that I am better than anyone.
I want to say DW and I try to think this way. We have a bit isolated ourselves from friends and some family so we depend on each other as much as we can to support each other. I get where your coming from in the terms of its your house and you two dictate how it works working hand in hand. Kudos to your H for being on his $#1+ when your out of town. I like to think I can do that too but I have only had her for whole days. Although I am pretty confident I could stand on my own to feet if DW wanted to go away.
Also to your last sentence. We shouldn't strive to be better than you. You are doing what you think is right and we are doing what we think is right. There is no better just a different form or equal I think.
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McBenny
Unicorn
#sickomode
Posts: 52,390 Likes: 297,342
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Post by McBenny on Nov 29, 2017 13:43:22 GMT -6
That's on you if you internalize what society says. I work 55-60 hours a week, MH also works FT, if I need something done I look to the other parent in my home and not fucking society. Also did you read the part where I said households? Cause you are still flapping about society when I am sitting here telling you society doesn't run shit in my house. If you are unhappy about something in your life who is it on to change it? You or society? Are you going to wait until society changes their views to make changes? I don't know. I am not. So no lady, I don't feel I need to be nice to ask for what I need from my fucking life partner. This isn't a coworker. This isn't a first date. This is a life partner. We have probably licked and sucked all up and down on one another and I can't ask for what I need? LOL So take your studies and wipe your ass with them. What does a study have to do with my post? Nothing. I said it's on you and how you run your household. Maybe you are a spectator in your life. I am not that bitch. Again, I feel it is on us to say what we need from the people in our lives. If we don't, how will they know? Out in the world is one thing. In your home, where you run this? Nah. As a lead member of the household I feel it is on you and your partner regardless of gender to decide the division of labor. You don't eat shit and worry about being nice or what society says. These are the kind of things you get to know about your person during the dating stage and shit before you decide to have kids and comingle households IMO. Don't argue with someone about their opinion. It's weird. While I agree with some of the things you said in theory and for myself - it's easy for me to say "just don't put up with that bullshit" - I just don't think it is so easy in practice for everyone, especially when you've lived your whole life with sexism as the norm in your household and all around you. Ok but you are obviously able to recognize it cause you are debating the shit on a thread online so address the shit in your home. It's not that hard. The shit you type, say to your partner.
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McBenny
Unicorn
#sickomode
Posts: 52,390 Likes: 297,342
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Post by McBenny on Nov 29, 2017 13:44:31 GMT -6
Don't get me wrong. It took me a while to get there. I have been young and dumb. Thankfully this was before MH. I am just trying to save y'all some time and angst.
Do better and be better than me. Not that I am better than anyone.
Also to your last sentence. We shouldn't strive to be better than you. You are doing what you think is right and we are doing what we think is right. There is no better just a different form or equal I think.
My last sentence was in response to something specific PP said to me not this topic at hand so to speak.
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McBenny
Unicorn
#sickomode
Posts: 52,390 Likes: 297,342
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Post by McBenny on Nov 29, 2017 13:45:46 GMT -6
I mean, I don't know what you want from me. I am talking here like I would to my best girlfriend. If you are not happy at home, you want me to just hair pat you and say woah?
I am not that friend. If you can't be most comfortable and happy in your home then where can you find this?
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Post by adorebel on Nov 29, 2017 14:19:18 GMT -6
I mean, what a day. I usually stay out of these threads, because they often lead down a road toward the trope of the "incompetent man." "Boys are dumb." "Ugh, husbands can't do anything without being asked." It makes me see red. adorebel , yes, I do agree with McBenny . I also understand societal norms and how hard it can be to break those cycles. But unless you decide to do that hard work, nothing will ever change. "Being nice" is far less important to me than raising a son who understands that his father and I are equal in all ways. That's the thing, though, I completely agree with McBenny on the fact that we must address these things in our individual relationships. I said exactly that in my OP. Like you, I have largely stayed out of this thread, because I don't have much to complain about or contribute on this front. I have a really equitable relationship with my SO in terms of housework and care for our kid, in part because he's great at analyzing his own behavior and in part because I'm a loudmouth and I've been adamant about demanding it on the rare occasion he's fallen short. All I was trying to add is that it seems victim-blamey to say that any individual woman who is unhappy about the gender balance in her relationship with an individual man simply hasn't stood up for herself enough. There are a lot of men who have internalized sexism enough to push away criticism, to give themselves credit for doing more than they really do, or even to become angry and shut down when their wives ask more of them. The individual and the social are so connected. I don't think women should feel ashamed if they can't magically change their partners just by demanding it. (And your son is lucky to have someone who is so great about articulating equality as his mom!)
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Post by adorebel on Nov 29, 2017 14:28:29 GMT -6
That's the thing, though, I completely agree with McBenny on the fact that we must address these things in our individual relationships. I said exactly that in my OP. Like you, I have largely stayed out of this thread, because I don't have much to complain about or contribute on this front. I have a really equitable relationship with my SO in terms of housework and care for our kid, in part because he's great at analyzing his own behavior and in part because I'm a loudmouth and I've been adamant about demanding it on the rare occasion he's fallen short. All I was trying to add is that it seems victim-blamey to say that any individual woman who is unhappy about the gender balance in her relationship with an individual man simply hasn't stood up for herself enough. There are a lot of men who have internalized sexism enough to push away criticism, to give themselves credit for doing more than they really do, or even to become angry and shut down when their wives ask more of them. The individual and the social are so connected. I don't think women should feel ashamed if they can't magically change their partners just by demanding it. (And your son is lucky to have someone who is so great about articulating equality as his mom!) Knowing what I do about McBenny , I think it goes over a line to suggest she's doing any victim-blaming of any kind. What do you suggest women in these situations do instead? How do we change society if we don't first start with the individual? And how, if we don't start by kicking an "incompetent man" in his ass, can we teach our children any different? I would suggest that women try to change their relationships with their partners, just as you guys are saying. That, again, is precisely the part of the post I agreed with. But I wouldn't say individual sexism has nothing to do with societal sexism or that she's just "entertaining bullshit" or it's the woman's fault (that's where the word blame came in for me) if she can't immediately make her partner change just by demanding it. People's shitty beliefs about gender, class, etc. go deep and are bound up with their insecurities.
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McBenny
Unicorn
#sickomode
Posts: 52,390 Likes: 297,342
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Post by McBenny on Nov 29, 2017 14:32:17 GMT -6
I mean, what a day. I usually stay out of these threads, because they often lead down a road toward the trope of the "incompetent man." "Boys are dumb." "Ugh, husbands can't do anything without being asked." It makes me see red. adorebel , yes, I do agree with McBenny . I also understand societal norms and how hard it can be to break those cycles. But unless you decide to do that hard work, nothing will ever change. "Being nice" is far less important to me than raising a son who understands that his father and I are equal in all ways. That's the thing, though, I completely agree with McBenny on the fact that we must address these things in our individual relationships. I said exactly that in my OP. Like you, I have largely stayed out of this thread, because I don't have much to complain about or contribute on this front. I have a really equitable relationship with my SO in terms of housework and care for our kid, in part because he's great at analyzing his own behavior and in part because I'm a loudmouth and I've been adamant about demanding it on the rare occasion he's fallen short. All I was trying to add is that it seems victim-blamey to say that any individual woman who is unhappy about the gender balance in her relationship with an individual man simply hasn't stood up for herself enough. There are a lot of men who have internalized sexism enough to push away criticism, to give themselves credit for doing more than they really do, or even to become angry and shut down when their wives ask more of them. The individual and the social are so connected. I don't think women should feel ashamed if they can't magically change their partners just by demanding it. (And your son is lucky to have someone who is so great about articulating equality as his mom!) #1 - why are you comparing women in this context victims? I don't see anyone as a victim so there is no blaming on my part.
I think the use of those words in this regard is in poor taste.
You if anyone is harping on the woman and the man. I don't care if it's two men, two women, etc. If a person is not happy in their home with the division of labor I am going to tell them to address the shit.
You are harping on society and sexism and my focus is on the little spaces that we carve out for ourselves to be our homes. Where we lay our heads. I don't care how many adults are in the house and what their genders are, it is on the individual to speak up and out. Period.
All your posts read like something is done to women. I am way before that - who chose these partners? We do. No one assigned anyone a spouse or partner. I mean unless people are in arranged relationships. You are talking about changing shit after the fact. I am talking about how did we get there? You didn't see this shit while you were dating? You didn't get this shit clear upfront?
Maybe you are Timid Tammy in your home. I am saying that outside your home you may have to put up with societal bullshit but you do not and should not deal with that shit in your home. That is supposed to be your safe place to fall.
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Post by adorebel on Nov 29, 2017 14:35:00 GMT -6
That's the thing, though, I completely agree with McBenny on the fact that we must address these things in our individual relationships. I said exactly that in my OP. Like you, I have largely stayed out of this thread, because I don't have much to complain about or contribute on this front. I have a really equitable relationship with my SO in terms of housework and care for our kid, in part because he's great at analyzing his own behavior and in part because I'm a loudmouth and I've been adamant about demanding it on the rare occasion he's fallen short. All I was trying to add is that it seems victim-blamey to say that any individual woman who is unhappy about the gender balance in her relationship with an individual man simply hasn't stood up for herself enough. There are a lot of men who have internalized sexism enough to push away criticism, to give themselves credit for doing more than they really do, or even to become angry and shut down when their wives ask more of them. The individual and the social are so connected. I don't think women should feel ashamed if they can't magically change their partners just by demanding it. (And your son is lucky to have someone who is so great about articulating equality as his mom!) #1 - why are you comparing women in this context victims? I don't see anyone as a victim so there is no blaming on my part.
I think the use of those words in this regard is in poor taste.
You if anyone is harping on the woman and the man. I don't care if it's two men, two women, etc. If a person is not happy in their home with the division of labor I am going to tell them to address the shit.
You are harping on society and sexism and my focus is on the little spaces that we carve out for ourselves to be our homes. Where we lay our heads. I don't care how many adults are in the house and what their genders are, it is on the individual to speak up and out. Period.
All your posts read like something is done to women. I am way before that - who chose these partners? We do. No one assigned anyone a spouse or partner. I mean unless people are in arranged relationships. You are talking about changing shit after the fact. I am talking about how did we get there? You didn't see this shit while you were dating? You didn't get this shit clear upfront?
Maybe you are Timid Tammy in your home. I am saying that outside your home you may have to put up with societal bullshit but you do not and should not deal with that shit in your home. That is supposed to be your safe place to fall.
I feel like you're not even reading my posts.
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piratecat
Diamond
Posts: 36,253 Likes: 144,691
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Post by piratecat on Nov 29, 2017 14:48:11 GMT -6
While I agree with some of the things you said in theory and for myself - it's easy for me to say "just don't put up with that bullshit" - I just don't think it is so easy in practice for everyone, especially when you've lived your whole life with sexism as the norm in your household and all around you. Ok but you are obviously able to recognize it cause you are debating the shit on a thread online so address the shit in your home. It's not that hard. The shit you type, say to your partner. Sure, but you yourself have said that it has taken a long time to get to where you are now. I am not really seeing anyone (I read these posts a while ago and only skimmed to refresh my memory so maybe I am wrong) saying that they live with a sexist asshole of a partner and that they just put up with it. I think a lot of people are taking this opportunity to reflect on their relationships and how things are done at home and maybe realizing that that things could be better. I think we all know where we want to be and it's a work in progress, both at home (some of us closer to the goal than others) and as a society (needs much improvement).
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McBenny
Unicorn
#sickomode
Posts: 52,390 Likes: 297,342
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Post by McBenny on Nov 29, 2017 14:51:40 GMT -6
Ok but you are obviously able to recognize it cause you are debating the shit on a thread online so address the shit in your home. It's not that hard. The shit you type, say to your partner. Sure, but you yourself have said that it has taken a long time to get to where you are now. I am not really seeing anyone (I read these posts a while ago and only skimmed to refresh my memory so maybe I am wrong) saying that they live with a sexist asshole of a partner and that they just put up with it. I think a lot of people are taking this opportunity to reflect on their relationships and how things are done at home and maybe realizing that that things could be better. I think we all know where we want to be and it's a work in progress, both at home (some of us closer to the goal than others) and as a society (needs much improvement). Again, that comment was in response to something else and not the division of labor in a household. I was speaking to marriage etc.
I would not have partnered with someone like that. True I was older when I began a family I guess. I just would not have chose that for my partner or for my kids. Period.
There are posts almost daily of people complaining about what their partners do and don't do. Sure not in this thread but around the forum.
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digupherbones
Bronze
https://visiblechild.wordpress.com/2015/08/31/my-daughter-is-a-garden/
Posts: 244 Likes: 190
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Post by digupherbones on Nov 29, 2017 22:19:07 GMT -6
That's the thing, though, I completely agree with McBenny on the fact that we must address these things in our individual relationships. I said exactly that in my OP. Like you, I have largely stayed out of this thread, because I don't have much to complain about or contribute on this front. I have a really equitable relationship with my SO in terms of housework and care for our kid, in part because he's great at analyzing his own behavior and in part because I'm a loudmouth and I've been adamant about demanding it on the rare occasion he's fallen short. All I was trying to add is that it seems victim-blamey to say that any individual woman who is unhappy about the gender balance in her relationship with an individual man simply hasn't stood up for herself enough. There are a lot of men who have internalized sexism enough to push away criticism, to give themselves credit for doing more than they really do, or even to become angry and shut down when their wives ask more of them. The individual and the social are so connected. I don't think women should feel ashamed if they can't magically change their partners just by demanding it. (And your son is lucky to have someone who is so great about articulating equality as his mom!) #1 - why are you comparing women in this context victims? I don't see anyone as a victim so there is no blaming on my part.
I think the use of those words in this regard is in poor taste.
You if anyone is harping on the woman and the man. I don't care if it's two men, two women, etc. If a person is not happy in their home with the division of labor I am going to tell them to address the shit.
You are harping on society and sexism and my focus is on the little spaces that we carve out for ourselves to be our homes. Where we lay our heads. I don't care how many adults are in the house and what their genders are, it is on the individual to speak up and out. Period.
All your posts read like something is done to women. I am way before that - who chose these partners? We do. No one assigned anyone a spouse or partner. I mean unless people are in arranged relationships. You are talking about changing shit after the fact. I am talking about how did we get there? You didn't see this shit while you were dating? You didn't get this shit clear upfront?
Maybe you are Timid Tammy in your home. I am saying that outside your home you may have to put up with societal bullshit but you do not and should not deal with that shit in your home. That is supposed to be your safe place to fall.
This. You can try to change your relationship, but you will have to change your partner. Not realistic. People don’t change. Whomever they were when you met them is who they will probably be for the rest of their life. If they have again and again behaved the same way over and over and over throughout the years, then that is the future you are looking at. It isn’t going to change. They will stay the same because this is who they are. They won’t change because they read a very informative article on Facebook or because people on television are saying traditional gender roles are bad. They will agree with that shit and then continue their behavior. Just discussed this with one of my friends the other day. She doesn’t like that her boyfriend works in a bar. Well, he was working in a bar when she met him. I pointed this out. She said that she thought he would settle down and quit. Why? Why should anyone quit their job because they started dating you?! Why would anyone change just because they started dating you? Just doesn’t happen. People don’t change WITH society. That’s why there are still 80 year olds hobbling through Kroger‘s, talking about that Muslim Barack Obama and shaking their cane at that gay couple.
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Post by roseinbloom on Nov 30, 2017 11:24:19 GMT -6
I read the first back and forth between McBenny and adorebel, but skimmed the bottom ones [edit, went back and read, still want to contribute my thoughts] (Adorebel...you are Adorebel from M16, right? Nice to "see" you) I only have anecdotes and haven't officially studied feminism. But my previous post was about how deeply internalized these narratives are. Growing up, my household modeled feminism with reversals of typical gender roles. Yes, I demand equal weight from my life partner. [edit, deleted this sentence out of mommy-guilt and shame having it out there]. H does childcare full time and cleans and works from home and offers me emotional support. I mean, he's practically a single father at this point. I demand this, but I cannot say that my ideals match how I feel about all this. The student dads I've met in this situation do absolutely NOT internalize my feelings the same way. There may be the odd duck out there...I'd be willing to believe it...but have not met him. I am not into evolutionary psych, and I would wrinkle my brows at anyone who came at me with "maternal primal urges." But the truth is I cannot help being sensitive--it's who I've been since birth--all I can do is force myself to act out my ideals when I'd rather cave to my internalized (and yes, I partly blame society at large for the guilt narratives) emotional needs. Anyway, I feel like I fit the description of Adorebel's society-internalizing person within the household despite demanding the equality that McBenny lauds.
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Post by adorebel on Nov 30, 2017 12:11:18 GMT -6
I read the first back and forth between McBenny and adorebel , but skimmed the bottom ones [edit, went back and read, still want to contribute my thoughts] (Adorebel...you are Adorebel from M16, right? Nice to "see" you) I only have anecdotes and haven't officially studied feminism. But my previous post was about how deeply internalized these narratives are. Growing up, my household modeled feminism with reversals of typical gender roles. Yes, I demand equal weight from my life partner. I have literally been back home with my H and son only 8 weeks since Jan 1st. H does childcare full time and cleans and works from home and offers me emotional support. I mean, he's practically a single father at this point. I demand this, but I cannot say that my ideals match how I feel about all this. The student dads I've met in this situation do absolutely NOT internalize my feelings the same way. There may be the odd duck out there...I'd be willing to believe it...but have not met him. I am not into evolutionary psych, and I would wrinkle my brows at anyone who came at me with "maternal primal urges." But the truth is I cannot help being sensitive--it's who I've been since birth--all I can do is force myself to act out my ideals when I'd rather cave to my internalized (and yes, I partly blame society at large for the guilt narratives) emotional needs. Anyway, I feel like I fit the description of Adorebel's society-internalizing person within the household despite demanding the equality that McBenny lauds. Hi - yes it's me - nice to see you too! Like I said, I wouldn't say I've personally worried about seeming "nice," as I have a more dominant/outgoing personality, but it's a very common issue, and if we acknowledge that sexism exists on a social level, where women get interrupted, talked over, called hysterical, etc., then inevitably that will also affect their individual relationships, even with good, nice men who call themselves feminists but fail to live up to that ideal (like white people trying not to be racist and continuing to fail because they don't see all the little things they might be doing to hurt others). The degrees I have and the work I do largely concern feminism, so that is what has convinced me that the social and the individual aspects of gender are bound up in each other. So while I fully agree that change has to start with renegotiating individual relationships (I mean, yeah, how else would it occur?), I worry about blaming women for not being able to change their individual partners simply by demanding it. Instead, we need to emphasize not just women talking to men, but men taking responsibility for being better. And I think (some) people CAN (sometimes) change (somewhat). Most won't change at all, or will change a little, or will change gradually. That doesn't mean "Marry an asshole and change him!" but it does mean, "Maybe I've changed as a woman in terms of what I expect, and maybe my partner can grow to meet those expectations." My mom and grandma, for instance, have gotten really mad in the last 5 years or so about what they put up with, but saw as normal their whole lives, and my mom has started to point little things out to my dad that are making their relationship more equal. But it's hard going, and my dad, hard as he tries, still doesn't see all the little ways in which he doesn't take on equal responsibility. I wouldn't say that's my mom's "fault," it's just an ongoing negotiation - as culture changes, individuals demand change/try to change/fail to change/try again, and so on.
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McBenny
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Post by McBenny on Nov 30, 2017 13:02:29 GMT -6
Y'all keep talking about change like after the fact. I am coming more so from a place like didn't you see these things while dating? I remember long talks with MH about division of labor, religion, how we will raise our kids, etc.
I just don't see how I would have ended up with a caveman type partner regardless of gender?
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Post by roseinbloom on Nov 30, 2017 13:48:05 GMT -6
adorebel, I see your point about demanding change and putting the impetus on women. I guess I'm just pointing out that someone who has lived almost her entire life with men decently walking their talk re: feminism and who has chosen to be agressive about demanding and pursuing a feminist lifestyle still deeply struggles with the guilt of not fulfilling "feminine" roles and judges those against her self-worth. Societal norms haven't affected my practice, but they have affected my self-worth and have increased the emotional pain of choosing this path. It shouldn't be different for a woman to do this, but it is. And people who meet me actually anticipate that and offer comfort differently than they do to student dads separated from their children (which is another topic for another day). I feel weirdly alienated from other moms when I talk about my son. The guilt and pain is more keenly enforced than it is for dads who aren't (as a whole) expected to be the primary comforter or to be able to discuss in detail all of their children's milestones, habits, quirks, etc. I am always ashamed when I'm asked a question about my child (and I am always asked first when we are together) and I have to say, "I don't know." Even my cousins do this to us when they know I haven't seen my child in months. It kills me every time. Because I think, "I should know! What mother (read: parent) wouldn't know?!" Dads don't internalize those failures the same way, in my experience. Also, since I'm here, thanks to the people who have shared their experiences about equality in same-sex parenting partnerships.
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Post by roseinbloom on Nov 30, 2017 13:49:44 GMT -6
I'm not talking about changing a partner, just for clarity.
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Post by adorebel on Nov 30, 2017 13:53:28 GMT -6
adorebel , I see your point about demanding change and putting the impetus on women. I guess I'm just pointing out that someone who has lived almost her entire life with men decently walking their talk re: feminism and who has chosen to be agressive about demanding and pursuing a feminist lifestyle still deeply struggles with the guilt of not fulfilling "feminine" roles and judges those against her self-worth. Societal norms haven't affected my practice, but they have affected my self-worth and have increased the emotional pain of choosing this path. It shouldn't be different for a woman to do this, but it is. And people who meet me actually anticipate that and offer comfort differently than they do to student dads separated from their children (which is another topic for another day). I feel weirdly alienated from other moms when I talk about my son. The guilt and pain is more keenly enforced than it is for dads who aren't (as a whole) expected to be the primary comforter or to be able to discuss in detail all of their children's milestones, habits, quirks, etc. I am always ashamed when I'm asked a question about my child (and I am always asked first when we are together) and I have to say, "I don't know." Even my cousins do this to us when they know I haven't seen my child in months. It kills me every time. Because I think, "I should know! What mother (read: parent) wouldn't know?!" Dads don't internalize those failures the same way, in my experience. Also, since I'm here, thanks to the people who have shared their experiences about equality in same-sex parenting partnerships. I agree completely. My original entry into this conversation was to point out that individuals aren't free from societal expectations, and we shouldn't blame women for not being able to change themselves or their partners overnight. That got taken to mean I didn't think the work had to start with individual relationships. It must. But I think we need to be understanding about how complex that is and how long it can take sometimes.
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Post by shadesofgold on Nov 30, 2017 22:17:09 GMT -6
Y'all keep talking about change like after the fact. I am coming more so from a place like didn't you see these things while dating? I remember long talks with MH about division of labor, religion, how we will raise our kids, etc. I just don't see how I would have ended up with a caveman type partner regardless of gender? Who said it is so black and fucking white? Jeeezus. Noone is in here saying - and adorebel certainly did not say - that our husbands are cavemen. Most of us are like "we married the most feminist guy we could find and it is still hard!" There are several same sex partners on page 1 talking about how an imbalance in parenting and workload is happening between two ladies. Sounds like you should write a book and make a million dollars, but it seems like you are just here to throw elbows. #notnew #notsurprised #stillannoyed
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McBenny
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#sickomode
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Post by McBenny on Nov 30, 2017 22:25:31 GMT -6
Y'all keep talking about change like after the fact. I am coming more so from a place like didn't you see these things while dating? I remember long talks with MH about division of labor, religion, how we will raise our kids, etc. I just don't see how I would have ended up with a caveman type partner regardless of gender? Who said it is so black and fucking white? Jeeezus. Noone is in here saying - and adorebel certainly did not say - that our husbands are cavemen. Most of us are like "we married the most feminist guy we could find and it is still hard!" There are several same sex partners on page 1 talking about how an imbalance in parenting and workload is happening between two ladies. Sounds like you should write a book and make a million dollars, but it seems like you are just here to throw elbows. #notnew #notsurprised #stillannoyed Did I say anyone's husband here was a caveman? Do I know anyone's husband here? I was speaking to the point PP made that initiating change in others is hard. Several posts have said the same. I posted that I'm not even at that part cause I don't see how I would have ended up with a caveman to begin with. Key fucking word I. Also not of my comments said it had to be man and woman. Duh. I said caveman because for me, my partner would be a man. AND SINCE I WAS FUCKING TALKING ABOUT MYSELF IT APPLIED IN THE HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO. Maybe there's something else going on with you that results in you thinking something is about you when it's not. Seems like you want an echo chamber and yes people. I'll leave you to that.
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Post by shadesofgold on Nov 30, 2017 22:28:21 GMT -6
And please send me the survey people are supposed to use to determine, years in advance, what kind of parent someone will be? How much tolerance they'll have for household duties when in a particular busy time in a job they don't yet have? How they'll prioritize their own downtime versus planning family vacations?
I met my husband at 20. Life was very for us different 12 years ago. I didn't even know myself what kind of parent I'd be, or the true realities are what parenting entails, until I was knee deep in it. It is tricky to navigate life. It is hard to do it with two adults. It's okay to say "we're still figuring it out."
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Post by shadesofgold on Nov 30, 2017 22:32:17 GMT -6
Who said it is so black and fucking white? Jeeezus. Noone is in here saying - and adorebel certainly did not say - that our husbands are cavemen. Most of us are like "we married the most feminist guy we could find and it is still hard!" There are several same sex partners on page 1 talking about how an imbalance in parenting and workload is happening between two ladies. Sounds like you should write a book and make a million dollars, but it seems like you are just here to throw elbows. #notnew #notsurprised #stillannoyed Did I say anyone's husband here was a caveman? Do I know anyone's husband here? I was speaking to the point PP made that initiating change in others is hard. Several posts have said the same. I posted that I'm not even at that part cause I don't see how I would have ended up with a caveman to begin with. Key fucking word I. Also not of my comments said it had to be man and woman. Duh. I said caveman because for me, my partner would be a man. AND SINCE I WAS FUCKING TALKING ABOUT MYSELF IT APPLIED IN THE HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO. Maybe there's something else going on with you that results in you thinking something is about you when it's not. Seems like you want an echo chamber and yes people. I'll leave you to that. Yes I do know people's husband's from HIH in real life. Including the person who started this convo. Since middle school. He's vetted. Like, the most feminist dude. She made the safest possible choice. She's still kind of frustrated. Don't need an echo chamber, just some willingness to recognize nuance.
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McBenny
Unicorn
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Posts: 52,390 Likes: 297,342
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Post by McBenny on Nov 30, 2017 22:36:21 GMT -6
Did I say anyone's husband here was a caveman? Do I know anyone's husband here? I was speaking to the point PP made that initiating change in others is hard. Several posts have said the same. I posted that I'm not even at that part cause I don't see how I would have ended up with a caveman to begin with. Key fucking word I. Also not of my comments said it had to be man and woman. Duh. I said caveman because for me, my partner would be a man. AND SINCE I WAS FUCKING TALKING ABOUT MYSELF IT APPLIED IN THE HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO. Maybe there's something else going on with you that results in you thinking something is about you when it's not. Seems like you want an echo chamber and yes people. I'll leave you to that. Yes I do know people's husband's from HIH in real life. Including the person who started this convo. Since middle school. He's vetted. Like, the most feminist dude. She made the safest possible choice. She's still kind of frustrated. Don't need an echo chamber, just some willingness to recognize nuance. You knowing the man was not the point. Are you awake? You assumed I was speaking about people's husband and I'm telling you no I was not. I don't know anything about anyone's spouse. Not one thing. I don't go around talking about people's family. Not my MO. Miss me with that shit.
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