Gender Roles/Equitable Parenting

[crimsonandclover]

I read an article that was going around social media on the "mental load" that women have and that really hit home with me. My DH is very active but not pro-active, as in, I have to tell him what needs to be done. Like I'm the boss of the household and have to do the project management plus at least 50% of the actual work plus delegation and follow-up. Just one example: when we both have something planned on the same evening, it is expected that I am the one to line up a babysitter and coordinate schedules. There's no reason he can't do it, but unless I specifically delegate the task to him, it is by default my job. And that's how a lot of things are. But we've talked about it and he's trying to be more pro-active. His mom was a SAHM who considered her DH to be in charge of everything outside of the home and she was in charge of everything in it. So that's what he grew up with, and I think it really takes a conscious effort to get past the gender roles you grew up with.

Tl;dr: DH leaves me with a lot of the mental load but is working on it.

[summerbabe]

My husband was... not the best at being a 50/50 parent when my son was an infant. I was definitely up more at night and figuring out everything, mental load galore. It reached a point where maybe six months in he was doing something one weekend where I was like, whatever, I'm taking time too he clearly doesn't feel bad about taking care of himself-- time to do the same myself. I was just like, I'm doing X and he was like great, sounds good. That was easy enough so I kept doing it.

Now things have gone in the other direction. He picks up our kid every day after work and does most of the cooking/cleaning. I'm out three nights this week (2 for work, 1 for personal) but I was more 'on' this weekend. I think part of it is just taking up space in the world for yourself. I'm more into schools than MH so I will do more labor in terms of researching UPK programs, going on tours, etc and am more likely to handle well visits/scheduling appointments. But I no longer assume that I'm going to be the one picking up my son if he is sick. It's a lot more 50/50 then it was at the beginning, but it took me getting frustrated to happen.

I have a lot of friends that are still doing way more in terms of the house/childcare, and while that is great if it works for you, many of them are super annoyed. At a certain point, I think you have to tell your partner what is important to you, and start following-through. I think it is good for my kid to see me doing things like bookclub or going to a comedy show or class or whatever. We spend so much fun time together, but he knows that I have my own friends/life as well and he definitely has the idea that cooking is more of a 'daddy' activity now, which is fine.

[Deleted]

I started the first article but won’t be able to finish it until later.

I can’t stand the jokes and assumptions and just cultural norm re: men being incompetent at household and kid things. In addition to all the problems it creates, it’s very destructive for same sex couples and single fathers. Like, if men are so bad at life, how are those families keeping it together.

I am very thankful for my MIL who raised two very independent and self sufficient men. She was a single mom and worked full time and finished her degree while her sons were in middle school. She made them cook, clean, everything. H is fully capable of all household tasks.

When we first lived together I was a bit of a control freak and would criticize how he cleaned. I realized it was so stupid because, really, do I want to do everything “my way” and hate life or do I want to split up the tasks and be happy when everything is done and we can hang?

Also, when DS was a baby we just went with an equitable split on tasks. The only exception was when I was on maternity leave and he was working. When I went back to work, I traveled overnight multiple times a month, so H was primary caregiver. It has made a huge difference in our household culture even though I don’t travel anymore.

[CurlieWhirlie]

I have two experiences with this topic: my ex-husband is absolutely guilty of "playing dumb" or "pretending not to notice" to avoid having to do things. And I 100% agree it is a subtle form of misogyny, it is a way to keep women in a specific domestic role. "But you're so good at X!" just reinforces the idea that "women SHOULD be good at X." And living alone has not cured him of this. His apartment is absolutely filthy to the point that our son points it out to him, and he (our son) asks me to make his school lunches even on the nights he's at his dad's. So I don't think he does it on purpose, it's quite sad and a disservice to both women AND men. And it's not only an American thing, he was raised in N. Ireland.

So now I have a very progressive husband who was raised to be a feminist, and I can tell you the second article still rings somewhat true. He makes a huge effort to be aware of it, though, which I appreciate. I still do most of the middle of the night care for our preschooler only because he's going through a phase of only wanting me. I make the kids' lunches and do all the laundry, but MH does ALL of the cooking and most of the grocery shopping and cleaning of the kitchen. We both take one work from home day a week to do preschool dropoff and pickup.

I still do all of the paperwork/administrative type stuff. After school programs, playdates, forms that need to be filled out, bills and money management. I would say that it's because I'm better at it than he is, but I think that's the whole point of the first article. Am I really better? Or have we both been conditioned to believe it so it has become a self-fulfilling prophecy?

[byjove]

I agree with crimsonandclover on the mental load (I've seen that article too). Similarly my DH is a very involved and present parent and does help out around the house, but I am the tasker and list generator. I'm not sure he has ever purchased diapers (our oldest is 4 and youngest is not yet 2). He's made doctor's appointments, but only if I tell him to. I hate the mental load, and while my DH is smart and capable, he gets easily overwhelmed and stressed out if I transfer more than a smidge of the mental load to him. So I feel like it is a delicate balance trying to keep everyone on an even keel.

I saw that WaPo story about how learning to undervalue women starts at home. The headline really startled me. It makes sense and I've been racking my brain how for examples of things that would prove this to be true in how I was raised and worried that my mental load is perpetuating this for our daughters. My mom SAHM for chunks of my adolescence, but I remember grocery shopping with my dad and my dad would take this little portable radio I got one year at his company's kid holiday party around the house on weekends scrubbing the bathrooms, etc. Hopefully we are doing ok?

[byjove]

CurlieWhirlie, I definitely identify with your second and third paragraphs.

[JukEboX]

Nov 13, 2017 10:49:03 GMT -6 @heartbot said:

Hi. So I came across two articles this morning rapid fire that immediately got me to thinking about how families balance out work.

Male incompetence is a subtle form of misogyny. 
Where do kids learn to undervalue women? Their parents.

This...struck something with me. Not sure if anyone wants to talk about it. I don't want to husband bash or anything, but...does anyone else chafe at some of this stuff?

@heartbot I hope to bring some husband discussion to this thread while remaining open to questions and enlightenment. 

How it stands now is I would like to think I do as much as I can to help when I am home. I work 1 hour away from home and 2 days a week I work 12 hour shifts to try and make a little extra money so we can work on our house or have a night out or something that DW and I would like to do. Even taking DD to a childrens museum or something. When I am home I spend as much time as I can taking care of DD and giving DW time to relax or go out or leave her time to do what she has to do on her own. I do a good amount of cleaning as well as all our laundry during the weekend. I clean up rooms once a week and take care of all of our animals. Around DD nap times on weekends is when we can either do our own thing or do stuff together but other than that after she goes to bed on the weekdays is when we have some time to ourselves. Its hard when I am not home most of the days for those 2 days I work late and that is not including if I need to make up time for sickness or appointments. It is hard not seeing DW or DD for almost 3 days some times. Absence makes the heart grow fonder.

I haven't really impressed on DD that she should do "female imposed" chores. We kind of split up the work easily as we can. I can honestly say I don't cook. Not that I can't but I don't have the time to prep or cook for us. I am usually home in time to sit down to eat before DD chews her hands off. I try to levy that with helping clean up the kitchen and dining room or taking DD to take a Bath and get ready for bed. I really try to strike a equal balance.

I don't really think in this day and age there are gender specific parenting roles other than breast feeding. That is a connection between the child and the mother. I do believe, as I have done with DD, that men should be getting up in the middle of the night to help care the child as well as every other aspect of parenting. I can remember every night getting up to change DD and feed her. It was our time to bond, watch some late night cartoons, and cuddle before going back to bed. That gave mommy time to recharge before early morning feeding normally after I was out of the house and on the way to work. And my parents are both amazing at cooking and both are neat freaks so they have split things pretty evenly as well especially with my dad being a firefighter working 24 hours 2 nights a week. 

I was able to read the first link but the second is blocked here at work but I like to think DW and I are giving DD the full compliment of opportunities to do things that both men and women enjoy at her age. She has a kitchen, she has cars, a bike, dolls, stuffed animals and all bevy of colors. She likes what she likes and enjoys experiencing whatever she wants. We don't dress her like a girl or a boy, we dress her to keep her warm and functional. I know I (we) are not perfect so I am always open to suggestions.

Hope this helps.

[crimsonandclover]

As a follow up to my earlier post, I just want to add some food for thought if your spouse grew up in a household with different gender roles than you did.

With DH, his mom did about 90% of things around the house and his dad did 10%.
I grew up in a very egalitarian household, and my parents split things pretty evenly, so 50/50.

In our relationship, I do about 60-70% of the chores while DH does 30-40%. What that means, though, is that I do more around the house than my mom did while DH does less than my dad did. That makes me feel resentful sometimes. On the other hand, for DH, he is doing more than his dad did while I am doing less than his mom. And sometimes I think that makes him a bit resentful. We try to be very aware of this and talk about it, but I really think there's something to it. Both of us are doing more than our corresponding parent did, and that can lead to some tension since *both* of us feel like we're doing more than we "should."

[blurnette989]

Here is an article I recently read that I identified with.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a12063822/emotional-labor-gender-equality/

[blurnette989]

I live my husband to death and he is a wonderful father who splits childcare responsibilities with me quite evenly, but still has a ways to go.

For example, he wanted to see a movie last week and I was like yeah I'd like to see that too. Let's make a date. He was like cool. Two days later he asked what night I got our babysitter for. I said I didn't. If he wanted to go to the movie he could set it up. It hadn't occurred to him to do this on his own. So he did it for the first time ever (our oldest is 4) and realized what a pain booking a babysitter can be. It takes time but bit by bit I open his eyes to the general inequality.

[blurnette989]

JukEboX I appreciate you participating and obviously trying to do what you can. The only thing I'd say is do you ever ask your wife how she feels about your division of labor? Sometimes we just don't even realize how our partners feel about it. Like crimsonandclover stated, both her and her Husband perceive their contributions differently and I think that's probably true for MH too. His dad didn't do anything around t Josue when my was growing up to the point that he didn't know how to pay bills, or really do anything when mil passed away. MH does soooooo much more than his father did, but our division isn't always equal. So anyways, my point is that sometimes it helps to have check-ins with your spouse to see where the pressure points are. Even opening up for that conversation is usually greatly appreciated.

[JukEboX]

Nov 13, 2017 14:54:40 GMT -6 blurnette989 said:

JukEboX I appreciate you participating and obviously trying to do what you can. The only thing I'd say is do you ever ask your wife how she feels about your division of labor? Sometimes we just don't even realize how our partners feel about it.

I actually do this on a regular basis. We both do. We look inwards and we feel terrible if one of us thinks we aren't doing enough. Besides cooking, cleaning, taking care of DD we do have a separation of bills etc. I handle the monthly bills, make sure they are paid, and she deals with Taxes, Health reimbursement, and health bills. Simply because she understands it better than me and I budget a lot better than her. And I can agree with crimsonandclover . My parents separated a lot and my dad did work more than my mom. Kind of like us now. I will not talk about her parents because that is her business. Her mother is a saint. But more to the point I do 50 hour weeks and commute 10 hours of that so obviously DW does more during the week in relation to my commute and work time and I play catch up on the weekend as well as yard work and what not. She goes to bed early because she is tired by about 9-10ish which mean I stay up and try to handle my side business, do some web coding, or just decompress. She is usually up before I am on the weekend because that I the only time I have to catch up with my life and small business. But I do what I can to make sure she gets at least 9 -10 hours a night on the weekend. If not she has a hard time functioning. But that is who she is. I am hitting maybe 6-7 hours a night. I we never one to sleep late. I don't know how people do it. But that is how I am.

[shadesofgold]

Will be back to read and post more when I'm not underwater with work and a sick kid (I'm a walking working mom cliche over here.) Just wanted to say thanks for starting the conversion!

Also! The Longest Shortest Time podcast is doing a three part series on working moms and #2 from last week covered research on the cultural expectations and economic realities on the impossible balance demanded of working moms. I teared up listening, it was that spot on. Highly recommend.

[coconutbacon]

Thanks for sharing these articles, @heartbot. I actually think that my husband and I are pretty good about balancing parenting and household work, and I believe that’s in no small part due to the long paid parental leave he was able to take (5 months— longer than me!) We piggy-backed our leaves, so we each had time as the main caregiver in DD’s first year. I know we were really lucky to be able to do that. Not only was that great for bonding with DD, it also meant that we both gained confidence in ourselves and one another in accomplishing household and parenting tasks. Also, some of the best advice we received was to set an every other night schedule for wake-ups. Every other night one of us is “on” for anything that comes up. We’re actually back on that now because DD is experiencing some serious toddler sleep regression. But knowing that I can get decent sleep at least half the time makes it more bearable.

[sherminator]

Same sex household here.... still resonates- because we are both female, but what does my son see? We split up the chores, but I am forever doing dishes... and I don't mow the lawn. I wonder how he perceives it. and although its 2 females. In his eyes I think (because I am his mother, and he does not view my partner as his other mother) that MOMS do most of the cleaning, etc. He has said- I want a DAD, which sparks a Why- because dads do FUN things with their kids, they don't make them do chores and they ride on their shoulders ( which is about all he knows of dads) Timely question and not finished dwelling on it...

[stringy]

Same-sex household here too. IME, its been easier and harder this way. Easier in that we kind of had to make up our own roles based on interests and strengths and work demands (and kid demands, honestly) - but harder because that shit is hard - something about falling into traditional gender roles sounds really appealing to me right now - because then we don't have to fight about who's turn it is to mow the lawn, take out the trash, make dinner, feed the kids, etc.

Our dynamic has also shifted in our 4 years as parents. DW carried our oldest, and breastfed, therefore was super in tune and involved in the first 1-2 years of this journey. I still went on work trips and spent time on my own (also just easier with one kid). I carried our youngest, and at the same time we moved which increased our commutes, and I also became the day to day drop off and most day pickup person - so if you asked me I'd say I carry all of the typical mom mental load right now - and I resent it. Both kids look to me for everything.

We were both raised in households where our dads were the primary breadwinners - but our moms were (and still are) really in charge of everything. We each have a brother - hers is a very stereotypical hands-off dad, and my brother is very hands on and almost more in tune/involved than his wife. Like she's currently on a 10 day business trip and he's home with 2 little kids and working full time.

Its all so interesting....

sherminator, my oldest has little sense of what a dad does - or at least hasn't talked about it. It would be interesting to ask her what she thinks...

[shadesofgold]

While many aspects of this whole parenting and being married and a working adult feel pretty out of sorts, I do feel like MH and I share parenting equitably. We both work full-time and are lucky to have some flexibility in our schedules. I agree with coconutbacon that dads taking a significant leave by themselves helps so much with confidence and perspective, and sets a tone going forward. (MH had 4 weeks to himself.)

When DS is sick or daycare is closed, we take turns taking the day off. (MH is home with DS right now.) We take turns getting up in the night and being point person when DS wakes up. As far as sharing work, we have found that clear and completely delineated jobs works best for us. It keeps us from "keeping score" and helps avoid our personal communication traps. (Thank you, couples therapy.) Having it be totally black and white keeps us from having to ever negotiate who will do it or who did it last time. MH does daycare drop-off/pick-up most days on his bike, does yard work, and is in charge of weekly shopping, meal planning and cooking. I give ideas and sometimes volunteer to put a meal together. (Sometimes he isn't super creative and our tastes don't perfectly align, but I am happy not to be in charge and "suffer" through weekly spaghetti quietly.) In exchange, I clean the house on the weekends, do all the kid-related clothes and supplies shopping, and carry our second child. (Hey, it is work!) Actually, if you sorted out by hands-on hours, we probably do come close to a 50/50 split, and I often worry that he actually does more. Is he the default parent? DS is going through a major daddy phase at the moment, so that drives it home.

(Side observation: when I think about this split, I often feel defensive or like i'm giving up some power or moral superiority by not doing the most. This "power" of the default parent is the consolation prize the patriarchy throws moms. Now that I noticed that in myself it feels like the unspoken under-current of a lot of couples' power dynamics.)

All that said, I 100% agree with you, @heartbot , that I'm picking up most of the mental load/emotional labor when it comes to parenting and it feels totally invisible. I do most health-related stuff, holidays, social and activity planning, travel planning, family liaising, arranging the babysitter, research and reading on anything from daycare to discipline styles. I honestly don't resent that and it actually soothes my hyper-type A personality to be the family project manager. BUT I never get a thank you. I never get the recognition I feel I deserve for making the Halloween costume, or planning the date night or trip, or knowing what developmental stage we're headed into. (But that all feeds into a larger issue we're working on in our relationship about emotions and communication which will probably be a work in progress until we die...)

ETA: For the first year of DS's life, I was also doing all the breastfeeding, pumping, tracking his daily intakes, initiating the new foods and making baby foods and graduating him up to solids. That was like a full-time job on its own and I'm giving myself major credit for that for like the next 4 years.

[shadesofgold]

Nov 13, 2017 15:06:56 GMT -6 JukEboX said:

Nov 13, 2017 14:54:40 GMT -6 blurnette989 said:

JukEboX I appreciate you participating and obviously trying to do what you can. The only thing I'd say is do you ever ask your wife how she feels about your division of labor? Sometimes we just don't even realize how our partners feel about it.

I actually do this on a regular basis. We both do. We look inwards and we feel terrible if one of us thinks we aren't doing enough. Besides cooking, cleaning, taking care of DD we do have a separation of bills etc. I handle the monthly bills, make sure they are paid, and she deals with Taxes, Health reimbursement, and health bills. Simply because she understands it better than me and I budget a lot better than her. And I can agree with crimsonandclover . My parents separated a lot and my dad did work more than my mom. Kind of like us now. I will not talk about her parents because that is her business. Her mother is a saint. But more to the point I do 50 hour weeks and commute 10 hours of that so obviously DW does more during the week in relation to my commute and work time and I play catch up on the weekend as well as yard work and what not. She goes to bed early because she is tired by about 9-10ish which mean I stay up and try to handle my side business, do some web coding, or just decompress. She is usually up before I am on the weekend because that I the only time I have to catch up with my life and small business. But I do what I can to make sure she gets at least 9 -10 hours a night on the weekend. If not she has a hard time functioning. But that is who she is. I am hitting maybe 6-7 hours a night. I we never one to sleep late. I don't know how people do it. But that is how I am.

This made me re-recognize that MH handles all the bills and taxes. He also navigated all the of paperwork for us to get a mortgage this year. So this was a check-yourself moment for me - we are both doing things that are invisible to the other. (Which I know, as the articles point out, isn't the default.) It takes putting it down on paper to realize that sometimes. 

[stringy]

shadesofgold, what you said about doing the planning soothing your type-A personality resonated with me. Something I do (probably too much) is also reading about child development, management strategies, research books, look into things to teach them, etc. But its not that I expect her to do those things, but I do expect she'd want to hear about them and come into it with me so we can approach things jointly. And that doesn't happen. Instead, it cultivates the kids' attachment to me (I listen to them, I speak to them respectfully, I enforce consistent limits, in addition to making lunches, dressing, nursing the baby, understanding the 4 yo's anxieties, etc) - and makes her resent me when I note something she could have handled better. (I'm likely not noting it using the best communication...but alas...)

[sherminator]

Nov 14, 2017 9:15:22 GMT -6 stringy said:

Same-sex household here too. IME, its been easier and harder this way. Easier in that we kind of had to make up our own roles based on interests and strengths and work demands (and kid demands, honestly) - but harder because that shit is hard - something about falling into traditional gender roles sounds really appealing to me right now - because then we don't have to fight about who's turn it is to mow the lawn, take out the trash, make dinner, feed the kids, etc.

Our dynamic has also shifted in our 4 years as parents. DW carried our oldest, and breastfed, therefore was super in tune and involved in the first 1-2 years of this journey. I still went on work trips and spent time on my own (also just easier with one kid). I carried our youngest, and at the same time we moved which increased our commutes, and I also became the day to day drop off and most day pickup person - so if you asked me I'd say I carry all of the typical mom mental load right now - and I resent it. Both kids look to me for everything.

We were both raised in households where our dads were the primary breadwinners - but our moms were (and still are) really in charge of everything. We each have a brother - hers is a very stereotypical hands-off dad, and my brother is very hands on and almost more in tune/involved than his wife. Like she's currently on a 10 day business trip and he's home with 2 little kids and working full time.

Its all so interesting....

sherminator , my oldest has little sense of what a dad does - or at least hasn't talked about it. It would be interesting to ask her what she thinks...

When shes in school she will see more dads too. Interestingly, he sees ALOT of dads at kids birthday parties- now that they've expanded past immediate family and friends.. and at drop off and pick up at school. So it all seems so rosy then! LOL, also- possibly more sex than gender related?? J seems to crave that physical rolling around, and hoisting up on shoulders -- and his eyes light up- we have a male friend whose a wrestling coach and loves to grab him and wrestle him down and he just loves that. Im not hoisting him up on my shoulders much anymore... that's for sure. ( Off topic, sorry) We are physical together- but not in the same way his male role models are. I feel like a comparative drudge. My world is currently colored by my SO who is out of town on a trip, and I think is more stereotypical male role oriented. or would be happy if I would tolerate it. We split household chores, incidently, just don't cross over. I do almost no laundry, she will wash a dish - if desperate.

[sherminator]

Nov 14, 2017 13:59:36 GMT -6 stringy said:

shadesofgold , what you said about doing the planning soothing your type-A personality resonated with me. Something I do (probably too much) is also reading about child development, management strategies, research books, look into things to teach them, etc. But its not that I expect her to do those things, but I do expect she'd want to hear about them and come into it with me so we can approach things jointly. And that doesn't happen. Instead, it cultivates the kids' attachment to me (I listen to them, I speak to them respectfully, I enforce consistent limits, in addition to making lunches, dressing, nursing the baby, understanding the 4 yo's anxieties, etc) - and makes her resent me when I note something she could have handled better. (I'm likely not noting it using the best communication...but alas...)

Stringy- I share this aspect with you. and if I happen to mention that may have gone better IF... (based on doing this 1000X's, reading about it, interacting more often and more consistently) Im telling her how to parent/micromanaging their interactions.

[roseinbloom]

Two more articles as food for thought:

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/07/why-women-still-cant-have-it-all/309020/

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/10/why-i-put-my-wifes-career-first/403240/ (H of the author of the first article)

I think both of these are good stand alone articles and interesting together.

[roseinbloom]

I'm doing my PhD abroad. H has been primary parent since our baby was 10 months old. If I can keep this up, I will be back home when LO is 2.5 years old.

Both of my parents worked FT growing up, but my father, a veteran, took on traditional housekeeper roles outside of work and my mother was the breadwinner.

I have a lot of gender-role feels. Most of my ideals are in direct contradiction to the expectations and desires I have for myself and my role as a mom (Also Type A personality, FWIW).

[JukEboX]

Nov 14, 2017 12:57:39 GMT -6 shadesofgold said:

Nov 13, 2017 15:06:56 GMT -6 JukEboX said:

I actually do this on a regular basis. We both do. We look inwards and we feel terrible if one of us thinks we aren't doing enough. Besides cooking, cleaning, taking care of DD we do have a separation of bills etc. I handle the monthly bills, make sure they are paid, and she deals with Taxes, Health reimbursement, and health bills. Simply because she understands it better than me and I budget a lot better than her. And I can agree with crimsonandclover . My parents separated a lot and my dad did work more than my mom. Kind of like us now. I will not talk about her parents because that is her business. Her mother is a saint. But more to the point I do 50 hour weeks and commute 10 hours of that so obviously DW does more during the week in relation to my commute and work time and I play catch up on the weekend as well as yard work and what not. She goes to bed early because she is tired by about 9-10ish which mean I stay up and try to handle my side business, do some web coding, or just decompress. She is usually up before I am on the weekend because that I the only time I have to catch up with my life and small business. But I do what I can to make sure she gets at least 9 -10 hours a night on the weekend. If not she has a hard time functioning. But that is who she is. I am hitting maybe 6-7 hours a night. I we never one to sleep late. I don't know how people do it. But that is how I am.

This made me re-recognize that MH handles all the bills and taxes. He also navigated all the of paperwork for us to get a mortgage this year. So this was a check-yourself moment for me - we are both doing things that are invisible to the other. (Which I know, as the articles point out, isn't the default.) It takes putting it down on paper to realize that sometimes. 

Glad I could help with this. To make it easier for both of us I have an excel sheet that we both can see on our phones so we know exactly where our money goes. Any extra monies from our paychecks we can either spend on what we like or put it together and use it for DD or going out. Transparency helps us work together.

[JukEboX]

sherminator & stringy Thanks for adding your input to this conversation. I have always been fascinated on how this works in SS couples. My cousin who I am really close to is in one of these with 2 teen children who are absolutely amazing kids. I love them. Their mother was married to a man before marrying my cousin so she is like their step mother but all in all has taken her in like just another member of the family. I am not sure of their dynamic but I am interested in the differences and how they are overcome.

Getting back to the topic at hand. I can admit as far as the mental load at home I am guilty in my compliancy. As stated before I work 50 hours a week and drive and hour plus to and from work each day so I am out before everyone gets up two days a week and home around DW bedtime. On other days I am home just in time for dinner and if all works out Fridays I am out early enough to pick up DD from daycare which makes every bit of her day. This leans the mental load on DW a lot of the time for planning meals and prepping bag for school the next day. In the morning I pack DD lunch (only after DW has put it into a container) and put all her school stuff in the car for DW and DD so they can eat their breakfast, get dressed and jump in the car when they are ready. When it comes to planning outtings though DW is on top of that a lot. My mental capacity by the end of the day is enough to go home, help out with DD as much as I can, eat, shower, sit and maybe have a free thought. I am probably folding laundry or helping with any chore that hasn't been finished yet. DW is on top of DD activities because she actively looks for them to do. Currently they are doing swim once a week and depending on the weather finds something to do with DD or meets with the other moms to do something. This gives me some time to run the lawnmower or vacuum (which DD hates the sound of) or catch up on chores or work for my side business. She also is planning presents for birthdays and holidays (which I try to put my hand in but presents in my family have always been do your best to get them something they want). She also does the meal planning simply because my work schedule moves some times so he make easy stuff for her and DD on the days I work late and family dinners for normal nights home. She also goes shopping which leaves me time with DD on the weekends or we all go together depending on how she feels or if she needs a hand. I make sure we keep the house going, schedule maintenance, keep the cars in order, stay on top of the laundry, and try to manage our calendar. We are pretty much introverts now that we are the only ones of our friends with kids so we feel kind of alone in that regard.

So yeah I can honestly admit that she bares a lot of the mental load. Which I can partially blame on situation and partially blame on myself. But again this is all part of the whole thing @heartbot said. Do I ask if I can do more? Yes. Do I try to help when I can? Yes. I still feel bad it is this way. But I guess this is the hand we have been dealt so far. Which makes me fearful of her stress level when we have the $$$ for another kid. Sigh. IDK.

[Notarobot]

This is a topic that I spend a lot of time thnking about. Thank you for starting the conversation here.

We don't have kids, so I don't quite fit into this conversation. But I'm not sure where our household stands when it comes to division of labour. H does a lot of the labour around the house, and he does most of the cooking. I'd say we split the cleaning pretty evenly. We do our own laundry and make our own lunches.

I think the emotional labour is very unequal though. We're working on it, but I still do the majority of the emotional stuff that keeps our life going - planning, organizing, inviting people, find a restaurant, buying gifts for family etc etc. I'm trying to take a stand and take back space for myself, but it's tough because if I don't plan anything we don't do big things like weekends with friends, or vacation. Or he just won't get his mom a card and she blames me.

Have any of you listened to Esther Perel's podcast Where Should We Begin? It's recordings of single sessions of couples therapy and I find it fascinating. Episode two was a same sex household talking about what gender roles look like in their context and the challenges they've been confronting.

www.estherperel.com/podcast

[McBenny]

I don't know. I kind of hate this topic. In households, not society, I don't like the implication that anything is done to us, meaning women. If you have a lazy partner I feel it's because you entertain that bullshit. You allow it. I don't feel it's anything that is being done to anyone.

Anyway, MH is fully capable of doing everything. I know this because I left the state and left him working full time with two kids, one in school and the other not. He handled it. I can leave my house and throw up the deuces and shit will get handled. I don't have to prep shit for him.

That being said, there are some things I do and some things he does. Some are based on skills, strengths, and weaknesses. Most things are just because I don't feel they are two people jobs. If one of us can get it done then do it. This allows the other to do something else.

[adorebel]

Nov 29, 2017 9:05:57 GMT -6 McBenny said:

I don't know. I kind of hate this topic. In households, not society, I don't like the implication that anything is done to us, meaning women. If you have a lazy partner I feel it's because you entertain that bullshit. You allow it. I don't feel it's anything that is being done to anyone.

Anyway, MH is fully capable of doing everything. I know this because I left the state and left him working full time with two kids, one in school and the other not. He handled it. I can leave my house and throw up the deuces and shit will get handled. I don't have to prep shit for him.

That being said, there are some things I do and some things he does. Some are based on skills, strengths, and weaknesses. Most things are just because I don't feel they are two people jobs. If one of us can get it done then do it. This allows the other to do something else.

EEEESH my feminist insides don't love this. I really think we do internalize a lot of society's values, including having to "be nice" when we demand equality from our partners, as well as the sense that we can "do it all" and take on more and more as women (the BS of "lean in"). Studies have shown that men report doing 50% of the household labor even when they actually do about 20% of it. Men chronically overestimate their contributions, whereas women chronically underestimate theirs. I agree that one has to have an open conversation with one's partner in order to get to equality in the household, but I wouldn't blame individual women in individual households because they can't push hard enough or because their husband has internalized sexist norms enough to see his wife as a nag or to think he's doing more than he actually is. 

[blurnette989]

Yeah, I've had this conversation multiple times with MH and he mostly goes on the defensive and sulks. It's hard to break out of these designated roles we were raised with. And he does do more than his dad so he views his contributions differently than me.

Also, I have no worries about leaving him at home with both kids. He will make sure they are fed, probably bathed and get them to bed. However, I can fully expect the house will look like a wreck when I get home. I don't think he is incompetent jut he legit doesn't see keeping the house remotely clean as a priority. I also think he just doesn't see dirt or less the same way I do.

[McBenny]

Nov 29, 2017 10:49:43 GMT -6 adorebel said:

Nov 29, 2017 9:05:57 GMT -6 McBenny said:

I don't know. I kind of hate this topic. In households, not society, I don't like the implication that anything is done to us, meaning women. If you have a lazy partner I feel it's because you entertain that bullshit. You allow it. I don't feel it's anything that is being done to anyone.

Anyway, MH is fully capable of doing everything. I know this because I left the state and left him working full time with two kids, one in school and the other not. He handled it. I can leave my house and throw up the deuces and shit will get handled. I don't have to prep shit for him.

That being said, there are some things I do and some things he does. Some are based on skills, strengths, and weaknesses. Most things are just because I don't feel they are two people jobs. If one of us can get it done then do it. This allows the other to do something else.

EEEESH my feminist insides don't love this. I really think we do internalize a lot of society's values, including having to "be nice" when we demand equality from our partners, as well as the sense that we can "do it all" and take on more and more as women (the BS of "lean in"). Studies have shown that men report doing 50% of the household labor even when they actually do about 20% of it. Men chronically overestimate their contributions, whereas women chronically underestimate theirs. I agree that one has to have an open conversation with one's partner in order to get to equality in the household, but I wouldn't blame individual women in individual households because they can't push hard enough or because their husband has internalized sexist norms enough to see his wife as a nag or to think he's doing more than he actually is. 

That's on you if you internalize what society says. I work 55-60 hours a week, MH also works FT, if I need something done I look to the other parent in my home and not fucking society. Also did you read the part where I said households? Cause you are still flapping about society when I am sitting here telling you society doesn't run shit in my house.

If you are unhappy about something in your life who is it on to change it? You or society? Are you going to wait until society changes their views to make changes? I don't know. I am not.

So no lady, I don't feel I need to be nice to ask for what I need from my fucking life partner. This isn't a coworker. This isn't a first date. This is a life partner. We have probably licked and sucked all up and down on one another and I can't ask for what I need? LOL

So take your studies and wipe your ass with them. What does a study have to do with my post? Nothing. I said it's on you and how you run your household. Maybe you are a spectator in your life. I am not that bitch. Again, I feel it is on us to say what we need from the people in our lives. If we don't, how will they know? Out in the world is one thing. In your home, where you run this? Nah.

As a lead member of the household I feel it is on you and your partner regardless of gender to decide the division of labor. You don't eat shit and worry about being nice or what society says. These are the kind of things you get to know about your person during the dating stage and shit before you decide to have kids and comingle households IMO. Don't argue with someone about their opinion. It's weird.