Sunny41
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Post by Sunny41 on Aug 22, 2017 9:33:39 GMT -6
Have you ladies seen this? In cartoon descriptions it shows how women carry much of the mental load. That we do many things without being asked but that men often say "you should have asked" when say they should have helped. Just thought I would open this up to discussion. Well MH and I had an extensive conversation about this. He doesn't exactly get it. But as of yesterday he agreed to take on the mental load. He will worry about dinners, groceries, paying bills, his visitation and visitor schedule, picking up E and dropping him off. When he needs help with these tasks he has to directly ask for help just like I do. I hope that I can step back and let him handle the load. I don't want it to be an exercise in him failing and neither of us want E left at school. Hopefully we can both get something out of it. english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/
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cagoldi
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Post by cagoldi on Aug 22, 2017 11:55:11 GMT -6
Well.
I don't dare to bother showing it to Pete because he's just going to ask me to explain it. I've tried explaining it and he gets it but not to the degree I want him to.
I feel like I've had a milestone victory with him doing the dishes about 40% of the time now without me having to ask.
If I didn't schedule doctors visits and dentist appointments I swear the kids would never go.
Just last night I was telling him we have to transition X off bottles and he asked why...
Anyway, I'm just bitching and delirious with exhaustion.
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klong11
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Post by klong11 on Aug 22, 2017 13:05:43 GMT -6
Sunny41, is giving him everything to prove the point or are you wanting him to take it all on for good? I tried to explain to mh just the other day that I feel like he has a very easy life compared to me and he didn't get it. Which, is one of the reasons I made him handle the leak/plumber situation. I just had no mental time for it. At the same time I cleaned the house Saturday while he took Cadence to a birthday party. The following day I went to the movies and came home to a completely destroyed house that neither he nor my 3 year old would stake claim to. It's irritating. And if I ask for him to help clean up he acts like the 3 year old tantruming about how it isn't his mess. No thank you. Or he just does the minimum. Clean the kitchen? That means putting the dishes in the sink to him, when in fact I want the dishes in the dishwasher, wipe down the counters and table, which if I point out that is what I want he will do it, but just that one time, the next time I ask him to do it, it will again just be dishes in the sink. I don't know what my point was, I'm just bitching now. I did send him that link though. I'm sure he'll tell me I'm attacking him....
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mwhip
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Post by mwhip on Aug 22, 2017 13:08:19 GMT -6
I wish the linked article wasn't so long so I could paste it on FB, that seems to be the only way my H would notice. I almost wanted to cry reading this because it is my life. And trying to ask H, well, sounds much like cagoldi's P, they think they are doing their fair share, but have no clue.
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mwhip
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Post by mwhip on Aug 22, 2017 13:10:50 GMT -6
Sunny41 , is giving him everything to prove the point or are you wanting him to take it all on for good? I tried to explain to mh just the other day that I feel like he has a very easy life compared to me and he didn't get it. Which, is one of the reasons I made him handle the leak/plumber situation. I just had no mental time for it. At the same time I cleaned the house Saturday while he took Cadence to a birthday party. The following day I went to the movies and came home to a completely destroyed house that neither he nor my 3 year old would stake claim to. It's irritating. And if I ask for him to help clean up he acts like the 3 year old tantruming about how it isn't his mess. No thank you. Or he just does the minimum. Clean the kitchen? That means putting the dishes in the sink to him, when in fact I want the dishes in the dishwasher, wipe down the counters and table, which if I point out that is what I want he will do it, but just that one time, the next time I ask him to do it, it will again just be dishes in the sink. I don't know what my point was, I'm just bitching now. I did send him that link though. I'm sure he'll tell me I'm attacking him.... So much yes to the bold if I tried to get him to read this. I try to thank H when does something to help me, the one time this weekend he helped me clean up dinner, when he vacuumed. Mind you, I wasn't sitting on my ass doing nothing while he was doing this, so saying thank you shouldn't be necessary, but I guess I'm trying the kill him with kindness thing to see if he gets it. Not that he thanked me for mowing the yard, cleaning the bathrooms, doing E's laundry, etc. I'm frustrated with all of it and at the end of my rope.
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Post by wineallthetime on Aug 22, 2017 13:15:00 GMT -6
Ok, first off I get that every relationship is different so I'm not at all saying you previous posters aren't justified in your thoughts. However, I've found that sometimes MH and I are BOTH feeling like this and it's frustrating. We both get so into our heads about all of the things that we do that we don't see the things the other person always does. For instance, I can get super frustrated that I'm the one always doing the dishes, laundry and dealing with all the kids day to day needs. He could at the same time be feeling super frustrated that he's always doing the lawn, taking out the trash, ect. It's hard to really see what the other person is doing when you don't really take the time to back away from our frustrations and look at the bigger picture.
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Sunny41
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Post by Sunny41 on Aug 22, 2017 13:17:49 GMT -6
klong11, he chose to take it all over. Just like you and cagoldi,I tried to explain it to him and he still didn't get it so this was his answer. I explained that he never asks or did ask me to make dinner or pick up E or schedule E's appts or go grocery shopping. But all those things require me to ask him. "But I do it when you ask" is not the right response. So he said, just don't, don't think about the meals and the groceries and it will still get done. mm-k. He does do a lot of chores but the mental load is much more than chores, it's management. before E & the house we had a system where we each had days that we were responsible for meals. It worked but then we moved and had a kid and changed jobs. He needs something concrete like that. But that was simply for meals and dishes. I downloaded Mint onto his phone in January and he was supposed to enter the bills when they came in and check it regularly. He hasn't opened it since he entered 1 bill.
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Sunny41
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Post by Sunny41 on Aug 22, 2017 13:22:26 GMT -6
Ok, first off I get that every relationship is different so I'm not at all saying you previous posters aren't justified in your thoughts. However, I've found that sometimes MH and I are BOTH feeling like this and it's frustrating. We both get so into our heads about all of the things that we do that we don't see the things the other person always does. For instance, I can get super frustrated that I'm the one always doing the dishes, laundry and dealing with all the kids day to day needs. He could at the same time be feeling super frustrated that he's always doing the lawn, taking out the trash, ect. It's hard to really see what the other person is doing when you don't really take the time to back away from our frustrations and look at the bigger picture. yeah, MH does a lot of chores and so that wasn't an issue for us. I happen to be the messy person. It was all the other load that I have that he never "asked" me to have and that I do on top of working a full day just like him (not a SAHM slight, just an example that was used in the article). MH doesn't even know where to put the bills when they come in the mail!
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klong11
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Post by klong11 on Aug 22, 2017 13:24:44 GMT -6
Sunny41, I was just wondering if later on it would be split to share the load. Like he do certain tasks and you do others. I would be fine with this in our house. My issue is that I'm a do-er. I see something needs to be done and I just do it. I don't wait for someone to ask me. Oh, the trash is full. I take it out. Dirty dishes, take care of them. Toys on the floor, put them away for the millionth time. I'm trying to instill that in Cadence, but she seems to like mh's way of doing things.....don't do them and they will still get done, by Mom.
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klong11
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Post by klong11 on Aug 22, 2017 13:26:01 GMT -6
Mh's response: it's makes it seem like the husband's don't ask to help at all, when in fact they do. I do not like that cartoon
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klong11
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Post by klong11 on Aug 22, 2017 13:32:22 GMT -6
So I said: I see it as more of a "don't ask, just do", sort of thing. MH: then the wife will be all, "you're doing ti wrong, just let me do it". it's a catch 22. i'm going to draw a cartoon to counter it Me:
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klong11
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Post by klong11 on Aug 22, 2017 13:34:43 GMT -6
I'm starting to see why we don't communicate well via fb messenger. LOL I think it's my love of strange images and gifs.
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Sunny41
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Post by Sunny41 on Aug 22, 2017 13:36:16 GMT -6
Sunny41 , I was just wondering if later on it would be split to share the load. Like he do certain tasks and you do others. I would be fine with this in our house. My issue is that I'm a do-er. I see something needs to be done and I just do it. I don't wait for someone to ask me. Oh, the trash is full. I take it out. Dirty dishes, take care of them. Toys on the floor, put them away for the millionth time. I'm trying to instill that in Cadence, but she seems to like mh's way of doing things.....don't do them and they will still get done, by Mom. yeah, i think in the end we will split things that are concrete but I don't think he will ever take on the mental load of scheduling appts, knowing if E has the right clothes or enough clothes for the season. I really hope that we have a discussion about the split and that he can appreciate it. Also, I have to plan dates and get sitters. I kind of wish he would take over the bills and budgetig but he is bad at that. But in order for anything to change i have to give up control of some of that too. Just like you are a do-er. Right now I know that if I don't plan dinner we won't have groceries or dinner. I need to "let it go"
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Sunny41
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Post by Sunny41 on Aug 22, 2017 13:38:01 GMT -6
klong11, MH said the same thing! If I try to do something you tell me I am doing it wrong. Don't put the tallest cup in the shortest spot in the dishwasher!!
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Sunny41
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Post by Sunny41 on Aug 22, 2017 13:45:07 GMT -6
mwhip, could you send it to him and say "i know this is long but please read through it. Sometimes I feel this way and I would like to have a talk some evening after E goes to bed?" I know some of it must be harder for you since he travels so much
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Sunny41
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Post by Sunny41 on Aug 22, 2017 13:47:08 GMT -6
I'm not sure if I am supposed to pick up my son from daycare. I wasn't asked. I normally do out of routine but we both pass the school at the same time. So I am going to go buy powerball tickets in hopes that I will soon be managing $700mill.
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mwhip
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Post by mwhip on Aug 22, 2017 13:52:12 GMT -6
mwhip , could you send it to him and say "i know this is long but please read through it. Sometimes I feel this way and I would like to have a talk some evening after E goes to bed?" I know some of it must be harder for you since he travels so much For most people, who can have calm conversations with their spouse, yes, this makes sense. For me, no, it wouldn't work. He would get defensive and it would result in an argument. And I'm tired of arguing. Obviously, we all know there are other issues in my relationship besides just the inequality of household chores, so I'm not sure I have much of an argument.
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wedding
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Post by wedding on Aug 22, 2017 13:53:30 GMT -6
I didn't read the article but I get the gist. I'm not going to change MH at this point and I will always have to ask for his help. The problem lies more on me asking him and then making him bear the burden of it. Three months ago we had a CTJ talk because I had a lot on my plate and needed help. I delegated that he arrange for the gutters to be cleaned. He left a msg for someone, never heard back, and my gutters are overflowing. I called someone today. It's annoying to say the least.
I have tried to delegate him taking C to appointments when he can. I was always the one to take time off of work and was sick of it. I schedule the appointments but we go over our schedule every couple of weeks and I let him know when he needs to take C somewhere. This has helped a lot, especially when C was in speech.
In terms of household stuff, DH will do great for a while and then start slacking. It's been this way for 15 years so I've kind of accepted it but also have learned when I am getting aggravated to say something sooner rather than wait for it to build or wait for change.
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joelies
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Post by joelies on Aug 22, 2017 13:54:30 GMT -6
I get what you're saying, wineallthetime. There are certainly things that DH takes the lead on, mostly getting household things scheduled. But to be fair, even with those, I end up nagging him often because he forgets. Or because he's specifically asked me to remind him. It's like I've got 90% of the mental load, even if I'm actually doing only half (or maybe 2/3s) of the actual work. Because if I don't keep track, shit doesn't get done and our internet is cut off or we get nastygrams because he said he'd pay a bill and forgot to. I think part of it is the typical male/female dynamic but I also think he has major memory problems already.
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Post by peachsmama on Aug 22, 2017 13:55:27 GMT -6
Our issue is 1. my control and 2. he doesn't have any attention to detail and 3. he was just raised differently.
1. it's my fault a lot. I want things done a certain way, he doesn't see the need and forgets that my OCD doesn't allow me to just let things go without consequences. Usually a mild panic attack. 2. HE DOESN'T PAY ANY ATTENTION! He doesn't ever complete a room if he helps me. Like to me, cleaning the bathroom means the mirror, the sink, the counter, the toilet (inside and out), the trash, the floor and the drain in the shower. He'll do half and say it's done. No. Then I have to go back and try to figure out which ones he did so I can actually finish it. 3. In my family you don't wait to be asked, you just do or offer. No one in his family is like that. And they aren't terribly clean people. So it's like pulling teeth to get him to understand that when I walk in the door with 15 bags on my arms and both boys trailing behind me that he should just assume I need help with either the boys or putting the groceries away. And to just say "what can I do to help" I would give my left arm to hear that without prompting.
Also he works 60 hours most weeks, he's exhausted. I get that. But I'm also exhausted. If he works 60 and I work 40, that is 20 hours that I'm alone with the boys. And it's more than that because his commute right now is an hour each way. My parents are helpful sometimes but more than not, it would be easier if they weren't even there. And I pay all our bills, do all the shopping, cooking, cleaning, and managing our lives be it social or health. And now add in the house process.
I think things will get significantly better once we are in our house.
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guster
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Post by guster on Aug 22, 2017 14:00:23 GMT -6
I do everything. I mostly do everything because I'm here during the day, and I do it on auto pilot. I don't see that changing anytime soon. It's also part of my personality. I have to be in charge.
Mh will do anything when asked. We had that issue earlier in the summer about his social anxiety, and since our conversation that night he has not once balked at doing something that makes him uncomfortable. It's a situation he wants to change, so I appreciate his willingness to try and confront his anxiety.
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Post by peachsmama on Aug 22, 2017 14:01:54 GMT -6
wedding A is that way to (re: gutters). Like we needed to get the land surveyed, he said he would handle it, great. He calls one guy who says he can't give him a price because the time in the field will vary but A wants to use him anyway because he's a small local company. Okay but I'm not signing a contract to pay this guy some random amount when he's done. I want a cap on the amount. DH just wants to use him, says it's not possible and we have to take the contract as is. I called a few people and found out he's not totally off on his estimate but I still want a price nailed down. After arguing with DH that he can't possibly run a business by saying "eh it's going to be between 2 and 6 THOUSAND dollars" I finally called the guy myself. Got a contract with a top out and he came in under budget.. But because I was the one that dealt with it to get the contract I ended up handling the whole damn process.... That was longer than I meant.. I apparently needed to get that out lol.
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joelies
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Post by joelies on Aug 22, 2017 14:04:30 GMT -6
Those are really good points, peachsmama. Re: your first and third points: I can't just wait for DH to get around to doing something. I was raised to do your chores BEFORE you play, and he didn't DO chores growing up. So while he has the "it'll get done" mentality (which often leads to forgetting entirely), I'm overly anxious about getting things done. We should probably meet in the middle. Re: your second point: He also lacks the attention to detail. Like he'll clean up after dinner but leave dried food all over the stove top. Or yesterday he walked out of the room leaving the fridge wide open...? Fortunately Colin likes to help so I get him involved as much as possible. I have a feeling their teenage years are going to be especially trying, LOL!
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Post by peachsmama on Aug 22, 2017 14:08:23 GMT -6
Those are really good points, peachsmama . Re: your first and third points: I can't just wait for DH to get around to doing something. I was raised to do your chores BEFORE you play, and he didn't DO chores growing up. So while he has the "it'll get done" mentality (which often leads to forgetting entirely), I'm overly anxious about getting things done. We should probably meet in the middle. Re: your second point: He also lacks the attention to detail. Like he'll clean up after dinner but leave dried food all over the stove top. Or yesterday he walked out of the room leaving the fridge wide open...? Fortunately Colin likes to help so I get him involved as much as possible. I have a feeling their teenage years are going to be especially trying, LOL! YES! I can not get through to him that "please do the dishes" means ALL of them. Not just the ones in the sink. But the ones by sink too, and on the stove, and any that you left in the living room too! And then clean where those dishes were used if there's crumbs.. And when he puts away dishes, he leaves ALL of the cabinet open so he doesn't have to keep opening them.. I'm kinda worried about the fights that will come with having a play room. He made a comment the other day when we were cleaning up the toys that he can't wait until we can just shut the door to the play room and not have to clean it all up every night. And I'm like uh no. Thats not how it will be.. I'm not having the room be a disaster 24/7. And he looked shocked.
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cagoldi
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Post by cagoldi on Aug 22, 2017 14:26:46 GMT -6
I get what you're saying, wineallthetime. There are certainly things that DH takes the lead on, mostly getting household things scheduled. But to be fair, even with those, I end up nagging him often because he forgets. Or because he's specifically asked me to remind him. It's like I've got 90% of the mental load, even if I'm actually doing only half (or maybe 2/3s) of the actual work. Because if I don't keep track, shit doesn't get done and our internet is cut off or we get nastygrams because he said he'd pay a bill and forgot to. I think part of it is the typical male/female dynamic but I also think he has major memory problems already. Exactly this. And like, yeah, he has to take out the trash (to the dumpster), but that's practically his only chore around here. So while I'm sure it gets tedious in a "chores are so boring" kind of way, I don't think it's comparable to the list in my head of "I have to batch cook food for the baby, I have to plan the birthday party, I have to make sure Pete takes his lunch, I need to send a treat to school for their party, I need to pack lunches, I need to brew the coffee, we need to buy presents for a birthday, X needs his prescription filled, I have to call the babysitter for date night" and on and on and on. All day, every day. It's like I have to direct everything and he just needs to show up.
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vino
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Post by vino on Aug 22, 2017 14:29:40 GMT -6
I've got a lot of thoughts. Like, wineallthetime I'm not bashing any ones marriage or the way they do things or what works for your home. But what i do know, in my opinion, is that these types of problems are rarely about the actual chore or 'mental' load. Control and communication have been thrown around in this thread. Just because you are married doesn't make you one person, everyone learns and does things differently, what matters is that in the end it gets done. Don't like it, do it yourself but, again, in my opinion, don't complain. So just because one person like using a certain app or way to manage money doesn't mean it works for the other. For us, there are a handful of chores that MH does and we have agreed through discussions that he will track and keep up. In that conversation it was important for me to tell him that I need to be able to see that it is getting done so come up with a way, for two reasons, one is military life and he is gone a lot so I can pick up where he left off and to know that it's getting done. He decided on a white board, lists the tasks, changing vacuum bags, furnace filters, etc and has a date next to it. I have zero mental load or chore load about these things. He came up with a system on his own, and then showed me since he is the primary person. As far as 'mental' load, I'm very annoyed about the term all together. If you don't want to do something then say it. Life is always busy, the mental load and chore load is never ending, so instead of keeping score put your effort towards making it work and coming up with a plan. I have been through it all with MH and can relate to a lot of it, but for me it turned into resentment and I had to make a decision on how I was going to be part of the solution instead of the constant bickering and keeping score.
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cagoldi
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Post by cagoldi on Aug 22, 2017 14:31:53 GMT -6
I think in our case, Pete wants to help but really has no idea. I'm not super picky.
If he sees the toilets need to be scrubbed, he'll do it. But again, these are one off things.
They are not helping me unload the tape I have running in my head that is an endless to do list.
He very much accepts less traditional roles for our relationship but I also know he hasn't really seen this modeled. His dad worked, his mom didn't. His dad never did anything around the house except yard work.
I'm not sure either of us know how to make it easier for me when I'm working full-time.
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Post by peachsmama on Aug 22, 2017 14:39:16 GMT -6
I get what you're saying, wineallthetime . There are certainly things that DH takes the lead on, mostly getting household things scheduled. But to be fair, even with those, I end up nagging him often because he forgets. Or because he's specifically asked me to remind him. It's like I've got 90% of the mental load, even if I'm actually doing only half (or maybe 2/3s) of the actual work. Because if I don't keep track, shit doesn't get done and our internet is cut off or we get nastygrams because he said he'd pay a bill and forgot to. I think part of it is the typical male/female dynamic but I also think he has major memory problems already. Exactly this. And like, yeah, he has to take out the trash (to the dumpster), but that's practically his only chore around here. So while I'm sure it gets tedious in a "chores are so boring" kind of way, I don't think it's comparable to the list in my head of "I have to batch cook food for the baby, I have to plan the birthday party, I have to make sure Pete takes his lunch, I need to send a treat to school for their party, I need to pack lunches, I need to brew the coffee, we need to buy presents for a birthday, X needs his prescription filled, I have to call the babysitter for date night" and on and on and on. All day, every day. It's like I have to direct everything and he just needs to show up. That last sentence, that sums it up nicely.
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cagoldi
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Post by cagoldi on Aug 22, 2017 16:08:46 GMT -6
Something else I thought about using the toilet example, IF Pete notices it should be done, he will do it. Great, fine.
But again, I'm the one who's thinking about how I haven't gotten to them all week and I need to scrub both showers and set aside a couple hours to clean all 3 bathrooms. Does that make sense?
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tallb
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Post by tallb on Aug 22, 2017 18:01:49 GMT -6
Something else I thought about using the toilet example, IF Pete notices it should be done, he will do it. Great, fine. But again, I'm the one who's thinking about how I haven't gotten to them all week and I need to scrub both showers and set aside a couple hours to clean all 3 bathrooms. Does that make sense? +1 mh has been commenting that we need a new shower curtain liner. I'm like, no, I just need to clean the shower and haven't had time to. Guess what I did during nap time this weekend.
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