willow
Ruby
Posts: 19,627 Likes: 125,243
|
Post by willow on Oct 31, 2021 11:52:37 GMT -6
Arguing against social programs bc some people abuse them is very Reagany I know I am a broken record but these conversations enrage me. I work directly with public assistance programs and people who utilize them every day and out of the hundreds (perhaps over a thousand at this point) of cases I have seen, I would say under 10 of them involved people who may have been “gaming” the system. And almost always it was a situation where the parent had the child or children on medical assistance when the other parent actually has the children in their home. Which, in the grand scheme of things, is …not the worst thing in the world.
|
|
|
Post by greykitty on Oct 31, 2021 12:08:07 GMT -6
But is it reasonable to say all programs of any type should include the ability to detect fraudulent users? Or is that only for some programs and some users? Ok to go after UEI fraud that transpired during COVID (https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-takes-action-against-covid-19-fraud)? Or Medicare fraud? Or just chase after 'big business'?
Honestly, my whole point was that most employers who provide leave also have systems in place to detect fraud, and I wouldn't have thought it difficult that employers new to such a program could use similar systems if and when more universal, employer-based or government-sponsored leave benefits were eventually enacted. If that's what the senator was wondering about.
I really don't think anyone here is either pro-fraud at any level or pro-ban all government programs in general either. But nuance is often lost, I think.
|
|
dc2london
Admin
Press Secretary
Posts: 61,688 Likes: 419,623
|
Post by dc2london on Oct 31, 2021 13:18:28 GMT -6
I just finished another 65 doors. Northern VA democrats who have not yet voted are very committed to doing so on Tuesday and clearly understand the stakes. Maybe that will help everyone feel a little bit better. Tagging alittlebitalexis here bc I know she was looking for hope
|
|
|
Post by orangebird2020 on Oct 31, 2021 13:34:11 GMT -6
This seems that the worry about fraud is focused on more that the reality that these programs are not actually accessible to those who need them.
Burdensome paperwork, endlessly changing requirements, recertification to prove to those in powerful positions that a program works.
I think of PPP, how easy it was for fraudulent claims to be funded, but the smaller businesses were left out or almost left out.
I think of short term disability for my birth, the paperwork felt impossible and almost not worth the hassle in that moment. Luckily one payroll person helped me complete it correctly.
I think of the new childcare initiatives in my state that qualifies more families for assistance. Luckily centers that I know are helping families apply. I don't yet have a feel if most know of this benefit or if the application feels difficult.
We can review statistics of the population that meet the criteria, but have low actual participation in programs.
|
|
dc2london
Admin
Press Secretary
Posts: 61,688 Likes: 419,623
|
Post by dc2london on Oct 31, 2021 13:43:31 GMT -6
Spanberger's district is super swingy.
|
|
dc2london
Admin
Press Secretary
Posts: 61,688 Likes: 419,623
|
Post by dc2london on Oct 31, 2021 13:50:40 GMT -6
Ok I like Mark Kelly a lot but whomever used this picture in a mass text should be fired
|
|
|
Post by blurnette989 on Oct 31, 2021 14:02:21 GMT -6
But is it reasonable to say all programs of any type should include the ability to detect fraudulent users? Or is that only for some programs and some users? Ok to go after UEI fraud that transpired during COVID (https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-takes-action-against-covid-19-fraud)? Or Medicare fraud? Or just chase after 'big business'? Honestly, my whole point was that most employers who provide leave also have systems in place to detect fraud, and I wouldn't have thought it difficult that employers new to such a program could use similar systems if and when more universal, employer-based or government-sponsored leave benefits were eventually enacted. If that's what the senator was wondering about. I really don't think anyone here is either pro-fraud at any level or pro-ban all government programs in general either. But nuance is often lost, I think. No nuance is lost. You take your smug bullshit and shove it. The point is that "work requirements" are dog whistles for racists. It's a white supremacist talking point that is also very anti-woman, deeply rooted in racism and misogyny. Nobody is saying don't have fraud prevention or fraud investigation measures. They are saying don't be a fucking white supremacist. Don't force people to meet requirements which don't have bearing on the benefit and often are contradictory to the purpose of the benefit. Jesus be a fucking fence.
|
|
dc2london
Admin
Press Secretary
Posts: 61,688 Likes: 419,623
|
Post by dc2london on Oct 31, 2021 14:12:01 GMT -6
The pandemic has further exacerbated an already horrendous problem where women are squeezed out of the work force by the demands for unpaid labor in their lives. I left the work force in part because my salary wouldn't cover the cost of child care for multiple children. In my case, I'm tremendously blessed that we were able to be comfortable on one income as long as we were very careful; That's not the case for far, far too many Americans. Work requirements revolve around the notion that every single adult can and should have paid labor outside of the home, but our society is simply not constructed in a way that allows that to be true. And, yes, a lot of the reasons are rooted in racism and misogyny. Things can be white supremacist and misogynistic without directly discriminating in blatantly and immediately visible ways. It's important that white people, and especially white women understand that because right now we are a huge part of the problem.
|
|
elle
Ruby
Posts: 17,855 Likes: 113,842
|
Post by elle on Oct 31, 2021 14:47:13 GMT -6
Oh boy.
|
|
|
Post by greykitty on Oct 31, 2021 14:58:26 GMT -6
Helping out at VITA or other tax prep volunteer groups can really demonstrate how many people are very 'deer in the headlights' approaching even relatively simple tax returns, and how many deductions/exemptions might have been lost from lack of information, etc, for the people who could really use that help most in their lives.
Also working at 'welcome to SS or Medicare' meetings can be eye-opening to how scary these programs can be when it comes time to enroll. And how many people make pretty far-reaching choices from whatever commercials they've seen lately.
|
|
athn64
Ruby
Posts: 17,414 Likes: 76,728
|
Post by athn64 on Oct 31, 2021 15:07:07 GMT -6
I get so angry when I think about how much worse it could have been. And that they had advanced warning, but still did nothing.
|
|
clucky
Opal
Posts: 7,826 Likes: 32,855
|
Post by clucky on Oct 31, 2021 15:09:02 GMT -6
Maybe I’m missing something, but work requirements are complete bullshit. Especially when the maximums are so low that almost ANY work, additional hours or raises, removes ALL assistance.
Anyway, I hate it all and fraud protections are just code to protect the checkbook bottom line and not the actual people. Fuck the people who may need it and fuck their checkbooks and actual lives through, right. Merican dream. Sounds like we need to do a reverse experiment from the universal check one to see how the bootstrap crowd manages.
|
|
willow
Ruby
Posts: 19,627 Likes: 125,243
|
Post by willow on Oct 31, 2021 15:23:00 GMT -6
To speak to specific program this conversation spun from, it is completely inherently misogynistic and racist. I agree with dc2london. Keeping paid leave from becoming a nationwide program continues to keep men atop women in every facet of business. We cannot have true workplace equality without a generous paid leave program in this country.
|
|
dc2london
Admin
Press Secretary
Posts: 61,688 Likes: 419,623
|
Post by dc2london on Oct 31, 2021 15:25:13 GMT -6
Helping out at VITA or other tax prep volunteer groups can really demonstrate how many people are very 'deer in the headlights' approaching even relatively simple tax returns, and how many deductions/exemptions might have been lost from lack of information, etc, for the people who could really use that help most in their lives. Also working at 'welcome to SS or Medicare' meetings can be eye-opening to how scary these programs can be when it comes time to enroll. And how many people make pretty far-reaching choices from whatever commercials they've seen lately. I live in the DC media market and the volume of "we can't let Medicare lower prescription drug prices because death panels" advertising has been deafening. And who pays for those ads? The pharmaceutical companies, who profit off of the US government not being able to negotiate. Pharmaceutical advertising has been hugely detrimental to this country. Purdue pharma is the most horrific example, but they are not alone.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2021 15:26:43 GMT -6
Yeah in the year 2021 we should all be aware that work requirements is a dog whistle. There is no nuance.
|
|
clucky
Opal
Posts: 7,826 Likes: 32,855
|
Post by clucky on Oct 31, 2021 15:30:35 GMT -6
willow yes, sorry, got distracted because it all gets untangled with the same deep rooted R arguments.
|
|
|
Post by greykitty on Oct 31, 2021 15:37:43 GMT -6
Helping out at VITA or other tax prep volunteer groups can really demonstrate how many people are very 'deer in the headlights' approaching even relatively simple tax returns, and how many deductions/exemptions might have been lost from lack of information, etc, for the people who could really use that help most in their lives. Also working at 'welcome to SS or Medicare' meetings can be eye-opening to how scary these programs can be when it comes time to enroll. And how many people make pretty far-reaching choices from whatever commercials they've seen lately. I live in the DC media market and the volume of "we can't let Medicare lower prescription drug prices becadezth panels" advertising has been deafening. And who pays for those ads? The pharmaceutical companies, who profit off of the US government not being able to negotiate. Pharmaceutical advertising has been hugely detrimental to this country. Purdue pharma is the most horrific example, but they are not alone. I was thinking more the Medicare Advantage plans vis a vis classic Medicare and which to pick, but your point is more than apt as well. Especially durign the day, I could see an MA ad at least every ten minutes on broadcast or cable channels. There are times I retreat to Disney just to avoid the ads. To be clear, MA plans can be very advantageous to many people, but IMO too many people sign on before they know all the pro's and con's, both at enrollment and if they want to switch down the road. And don't realize MA plans are private insurers. And don't know who all those friendly agents are that are not charging commissions to the user. But are indeed earning commissions. But then there's the fun of yes, classic Medicare isn't free beyond Part A, assuming you have enough earned credits, don't forget your supplemental (not free plans), and yes, Medicare premiums are income indexed. I keep pushing people to visit with SHIP counselors (free to you! thanks to taxes you and I both paid! objective, personalized advice in person!) just to get a background on Medicare, MA, supplementals, etc. - to get a feel of what toi expect and what to ask when they check out the options for real. And speaking of government programs most people don't know exist - there's SHIP in a nutshell. 'SHIP is a national program that offers one-on-one assistance, counseling, and education to Medicare beneficiaries, their families, and caregivers to help them make informed decisions about their care and benefits. SHIP services support people with limited incomes, Medicare beneficiaries under the age of 65 with disabilities, and individuals who are dually eligible for Medicare and Medicaid.'
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2021 15:56:26 GMT -6
My socialist dream is that the government subsidizes access to clean water, healthy food, quality health care, and safe housing. For everyone. Because if you’re a human you deserve having those basic needs met. And then how much would we even need all these complicated, bureaucratic programs that spend so much money and time figuring out who’s worthy of help.
|
|
|
Post by greykitty on Oct 31, 2021 16:04:37 GMT -6
|
|
jkjacq
Ruby
Posts: 21,742 Likes: 94,334
|
Post by jkjacq on Oct 31, 2021 16:31:04 GMT -6
Work reqs are not fraud prevention
Conflating the two is the problem And as I understand it, fraud rarely happens at the end user. Specifically Medicare fraud since that was mentioned. That happens more in the provider end. The fact that WIC is so restrictive down to ounces of special brand of cheese pretty much prevents fraud and is dehumanizing as well. Having to send someone back because it 10.5 oz instead of 10, never mind the fact it’s not sold in 10oz because some random person decided that’s all your family needs that month is humiliating for both the participant and checker. Making someone take a job just because is on par.
|
|
origami
Amethyst
Posts: 6,438 Likes: 46,593
|
Post by origami on Oct 31, 2021 17:18:18 GMT -6
Know what else work requirements do? They lower the threshold for getting help making people either have to work for federal minimum wage or encourage them not to work at all and utilize the nonprofit and school systems for their basic needs which isn't sustainable and stretches those systems beyond capacity, all so they can look like budget hawks.
It's still a choice.
|
|
origami
Amethyst
Posts: 6,438 Likes: 46,593
|
Post by origami on Oct 31, 2021 17:24:13 GMT -6
Omg omg y'all. A palate cleanser
twinfrastructure!
|
|
jaygee
Diamond
Posts: 28,294 Likes: 219,943
|
Post by jaygee on Oct 31, 2021 17:31:26 GMT -6
Omg omg y'all. A palate cleanser twinfrastructure! I just ran here to post this. And he clarified that the boy Gus is back in the hospital but improving.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2021 17:52:10 GMT -6
Aww, I hope they’re out the hospital soon. I just got some baby snuggles as a Halloween treat. Annnnd another little treat is coming home with us which I’ll post in the ransoms later 😉
|
|
clucky
Opal
Posts: 7,826 Likes: 32,855
|
Post by clucky on Oct 31, 2021 21:17:02 GMT -6
Work reqs are not fraud prevention Conflating the two is the problem And as I understand it, fraud rarely happens at the end user. Specifically Medicare fraud since that was mentioned. That happens more in the provider end. The fact that WIC is so restrictive down to ounces of special brand of cheese pretty much prevents fraud and is dehumanizing as well. Having to send someone back because it 10.5 oz instead of 10, never mind the fact it’s not sold in 10oz because some random person decided that’s all your family needs that month is humiliating for both the participant and checker. Making someone take a job just because is on par. Or the UPC for THAT specific fruit or veggie wasn’t put into the system and flagged correctly. PDQ . Or having to wait for a cashier as self check are not approved for WIC, unlike EBT which can be used at some stores and is much less significant. Why on earth are we requiring those with U5s to drag their babies in to get a pretty limited list in a pandemic. So frustrating.
|
|
elle
Ruby
Posts: 17,855 Likes: 113,842
|
Post by elle on Nov 1, 2021 0:19:47 GMT -6
|
|
LaRo422
Platinum
Posts: 1,698 Likes: 10,592
|
Post by LaRo422 on Nov 1, 2021 7:25:12 GMT -6
Also, I figured out a costume! I'm here for all your landscaping and press conference needs! PLEASE tell me you saw their Twitter page?! eta: I see it was posted, but omg I love it so much lol
|
|
LaRo422
Platinum
Posts: 1,698 Likes: 10,592
|
Post by LaRo422 on Nov 1, 2021 7:26:09 GMT -6
|
|