On reproductive rights and "white women in robes"

[shadesofgold]

By request, a new thread to discuss the problematic Handmaid's Tale protests, the shameful history of "white women in robes" and the difference between reproductive rights and reproductive justice. Please read this: werdbrew.wordpress.com/2017/07/15/white-women-in-robes/

The key premise: "Even now, the rhetoric surrounding reproductive rights is far too often remiss in addressing what amends for people of color, the poor, and the disabled might look like... Pro-choice rhetoric is so loud that it nearly drowns out anything else, and the movement as a whole continues to ignore how the history of white feminism and reproductive rights is rooted in white supremacist interests."

I had not seen this laid out so concisely before, and I work in public health. I knew about the term "reproductive justice" and the North Carolina sterilization trauma. I knew about the racist suffragettes and Margaret Sanger's terrible eugenics problem. But I didn't know about the ladies branch of the KKK, and I hadn't stopped to think about how The Handmaid's Tale was a whitewashed sci-fi version of what black women lived in this country - it isn't a dystopian future, it is our dystopian past. 

I don't really have anything else productive to say about it, just that I'm glad I read it and hope it will help me be a better feminist and repro JUSTICE advocate in the future.

Other thoughts?

[kitchen]

For me this underscores that I need to do more work to reconcile and help fix the fact that my people (white women) voted for trump and all that that implies. Mostly help fix. The reconciliation is just me getting over that I belong to a racist group and have my own racism to deal with. The fixing is hard (obviously). I like the term "reproductive justice".

[jkjacq]

I'm trying and failing to find the right words. I wholeheartedly agree with what is posted above and I know that when I talk about pro choice funding, i.e. Planned parenthood, that it's with the caveat that clinics like those serve a need for low income and minority populations.

I just had not seen it put the way the article stated it and I need to rethink my way of thinking.

[sterling]

Just in case the link was freaking out for anyone else: werdbrew.wordpress.com/2017/07/15/white-women-in-robes/

[shadesofgold]

Jul 18, 2017 18:26:46 GMT -6 jkjacq said:

I'm trying and failing to find the right words. I wholeheartedly agree with what is posted above and I know that when I talk about pro choice funding, i.e. Planned parenthood, that it's with the caveat that clinics like those serve a need for low income and minority populations.

I just had not seen it put the way the article stated it and I need to rethink my way of thinking.

I don't think there's anything wrong, per se, with still talking about specific "pro-choice" issues like abortion and birth control access, and serving Medicaid patients which include women of color. We still have to fight for that. I'm still making my monthly donation to PP. But we have to recognize that what I as a white woman view as the universal experience of sexual heath and reproductive choice is not universal at all. And that just like everything else, there is a sordid past here to keep front of mind. The way the medical system has abused and exploited black people in the past extends to these "women's issues" that we hold so sacrosanct.

[Uncaripswife]

This (tangentially) reminded me of something I read recently, criticizing those that refer to Sally Hemings as Jefferson's mistress. Because mistress implies that she entered into that "relationship" willingly. He literally owned her; she had no free will there. Talk about reproductive injustice.

I'll see if I can find the cite.

[Uncaripswife]

Jul 18, 2017 19:10:20 GMT -6 @dietpepsi said:

Okay I finished. The part about Tomi whatever her name is is spot on.

And just to finish up, I have neither seen nor read hand maids tale so when I saw the people dressed up as them at the health care rally I actually googled it when I got home.

I'm really glad I read this piece because I learned a lot. I'm going to read about the sufferage women and their involvement in white supremacy tomorrow.

Yeah, the Tomi Lahren thing -- just because she is pro choice doesn't erase every other abhorrent opinion she has espoused.

[Uncaripswife]

Here is the cite I referred to upthread

www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/sally-hemings-wasnt-thomas-jeffersons-mistress-she-was-his-property/2017/07/06/db5844d4-625d-11e7-8adc-fea80e32bf47_story.html

[athn64]

Jul 18, 2017 19:12:13 GMT -6 Uncaripswife said:

This (tangentially) reminded me of something I read recently, criticizing those that refer to Sally Hemings as Jefferson's mistress. Because mistress implies that she entered into that "relationship" willingly. He literally owned her; she had no free will there. Talk about reproductive injustice.

I'll see if I can find the cite.

This reminds me of a show I saw on TV years ago that focused on their "relationship". It was very romanticized, with her returning from France because she loved him.

We really like to ignore the ugly history of our country and turn it into something else.

[joelies]

The part about having children and parenting them in safe, sustainable communities is where the real gut check was for me. Because I have had blinders on, thinking of the pro-choice fight being somewhat of an end-all, be-all, when clearly it isn't.

I think the disparities in raising white children vs. black and brown children are generally known (here, not universally acknowledged for sure), but until recently, I never realized that just getting to the point those kids have a childhood to protect is so fraught. The huge differences in maternal and infant mortality rates is absolutely horrifying and it needs to be a priority to communicate it and tackle it from both from economic and social standpoints.

The only reason I think I even heard about it was a brief story on NPR, which got me reading elsewhere. Why is no one else - in the mainstream media, for lack of a better term - talking about this? Why isn't this a huge talking point for PP and NARAL? Why aren't the financial roots of the higher mortality rates not constantly being brought up when we talk about health care, Medicaid expansion, etc.? It just seems crazy that the issue is in the shadows.

We need these same groups that are supposed to stand up for women to start standing up for all women. I can't even see a downside? I mean, religious groups see these organizations as basically tools of the devil. Maybe rather than banging on about choice, we should focus on what clinics can - or at least should - do to improve these abysmal morality rates?

My mind is all over the place. I'm just reminded of how scared and vulnerable I felt while pregnant, and when my boys were infants. And we had great health care and doctors who look like us. It makes me ill to imagine how isolated WOC feel in similar circumstances.

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[Deleted]

Jul 18, 2017 19:17:11 GMT -6 Uncaripswife said:

Here is the cite I referred to upthread

www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/sally-hemings-wasnt-thomas-jeffersons-mistress-she-was-his-property/2017/07/06/db5844d4-625d-11e7-8adc-fea80e32bf47_story.html

I have always abhorred Bill O but honestly dude you really had to make the white guy argument that slaves were taken care of because they had free room and board? Eff you. No one has so deserved his "fall from grace." Not that there ever was any grace there to begin with.


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[Deleted]

Being encased in my white privilege bubble I never thought of reproductive rights in terms of forced sterilization and the right to have a child for people of color. This article and these comments are so eye-opening and encourage me to think about reproductive rights in a completely different way. I never cease to be amazed by what my privilege allows me to not think about or consider. I knew the suffrage movement was embroiled in racism and white supremacy but I had no idea there was such a prominent female KKK group. I always had this stereotype of it being male.

This perspective is definitely going to impact how I teach the 1960s and female reproductive rights.


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[dc2london]

Jul 18, 2017 19:14:05 GMT -6 Uncaripswife said:

Jul 18, 2017 19:10:20 GMT -6 @dietpepsi said:

Okay I finished. The part about Tomi whatever her name is is spot on.

And just to finish up, I have neither seen nor read hand maids tale so when I saw the people dressed up as them at the health care rally I actually googled it when I got home.

I'm really glad I read this piece because I learned a lot. I'm going to read about the sufferage women and their involvement in white supremacy tomorrow.

Yeah, the Tomi Lahren thing -- just because she is pro choice doesn't erase every other abhorrent opinion she has espoused.

This was honestly the first I had heard of liberal women cheering on Tomi Lahren. That's just absurd. She's a terrible human being. 

[dc2london]

shadesofgold,thank you so much for posting this. I'm glad I read it. The Handmaid's Tale makes for a powerful protest and it gets attention, but it seems abundantly clear that the movement to protect reproductive rights needs to be more inclusive. I'm not sure how we do that, but I think listening (or reading) is a good start, so this essay provides a good jumping off point.

[shadesofgold]

Jul 18, 2017 19:33:27 GMT -6 joelies said:

The part about having children and parenting them in safe, sustainable communities is where the real gut check was for me. Because I have had blinders on, thinking of the pro-choice fight being somewhat of an end-all, be-all, when clearly it isn't.

I think the disparities in raising white children vs. black and brown children are generally known (here, not universally acknowledged for sure), but until recently, I never realized that just getting to the point those kids have a childhood to protect is so fraught. The huge differences in maternal and infant mortality rates is absolutely horrifying and it needs to be a priority to communicate it and tackle it from both from economic and social standpoints.

The only reason I think I even heard about it was a brief story on NPR, which got me reading elsewhere. Why is no one else - in the mainstream media, for lack of a better term - talking about this? Why isn't this a huge talking point for PP and NARAL? Why aren't the financial roots of the higher mortality rates not constantly being brought up when we talk about health care, Medicaid expansion, etc.? It just seems crazy that the issue is in the shadows.

We need these same groups that are supposed to stand up for women to start standing up for all women. I can't even see a downside? I mean, religious groups see these organizations as basically tools of the devil. Maybe rather than banging on about choice, we should focus on what clinics can - or at least should - do to improve these abysmal morality rates?

My mind is all over the place. I'm just reminded of how scared and vulnerable I felt while pregnant, and when my boys were infants. And we had great health care and doctors who look like us. It makes me ill to imagine how isolated WOC feel in similar circumstances.

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I remember reading the stats in my first semester of grad school in public health - the high maternal and infant mortality rates among black women are a standard feature in the long list of poor health disparities for black Americans. I think what is really hard, as far as talking about it and trying to find solutions, is that a lot of the poor health outcomes remain even when you control for social and economic factors. A poor black woman with a high school education and a rich black woman with a law degree both have higher prenatal and perinatal risk. So the underlying problem can't be really solved with better access to health care or more sex education, our world needs to be less racist. So, as a public health official, or a doctor, or as NARAL, what can you realistically do? (The answer is that you have to become anti-racist in order to achieve your goals, but that feels way too big to an individual and maybe not exactly their wheelhouse.) So, I guess I'm trying to explain how I understand the "silence" from the field but I'm realizing more and more than we cannot excuse it. 

[shadesofgold]

Thanks for hanging with me as I monopolize the thread, but I also wanted to add... When I went through the new Smithsonian African-American History museum in DC, it really hit me how so much of the history of African-Americans in the U.S. has been the history of mothers losing their children. From being stolen away from their families in Africa, to being sold away from their children (some the product of rape) in slavery, to living with the increased threat of their children being beaten, jailed or lynched in every generation since slavery. They have to grieve publicly in order to humanize their sons, from Mamie Till burying Emmett Till with an open casket to make a political point, to all the mothers whose babies have been murdered in the last several years and had to give television interviews. America has always forced black mothers to not only prove their worth as mothers (battling the many racist stereotypes of the welfare queens and sexual predators) but also forced them to give up their children and carry on.

[dreadpirateroberts]

First of all I think it's ridiculous that people are WKing Tomi Lauren just because she's pro choice. She's an abhorrent person and one decent thing about her doesn't make up for the rest of her disgusting views.

Secondly, I'm really glad you linked this essay shadesofgold, because I knew some of the white supremacist issues with regards to Margaret Sanger, and the suffrage movement, but I had no knowledge of the ladies KKK. It was an informative read. It sometimes shocks me what my privilege allows me to ignore. If anyone has any suggestions on books about any of these topics I am interested in reading more about it.

I found this book if anyone is interested. www.goodreads.com/book/show/387122.Pregnancy_and_Power

[dc2london]

Jul 19, 2017 6:49:59 GMT -6 @blanche said:

I read this yesterday. Thank you for sharing here. One thing that's stuck with me since reading the article is what Atwood said in an afterword she wrote for a recent audio version of the book. She made a point to not include anything in the text that had not already happened at some point in history/ somewhere in the world. But it's easier to wear blinders (how symbolic).

The Handmaid's Tale is not an instruction manual... it's a cautionary tale, the dystopian present in a lot of ways.

those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it

[dc2london]

Jul 19, 2017 6:52:30 GMT -6 shadesofgold said:

Jul 18, 2017 19:33:27 GMT -6 joelies said:

The part about having children and parenting them in safe, sustainable communities is where the real gut check was for me. Because I have had blinders on, thinking of the pro-choice fight being somewhat of an end-all, be-all, when clearly it isn't.

I think the disparities in raising white children vs. black and brown children are generally known (here, not universally acknowledged for sure), but until recently, I never realized that just getting to the point those kids have a childhood to protect is so fraught. The huge differences in maternal and infant mortality rates is absolutely horrifying and it needs to be a priority to communicate it and tackle it from both from economic and social standpoints.

The only reason I think I even heard about it was a brief story on NPR, which got me reading elsewhere. Why is no one else - in the mainstream media, for lack of a better term - talking about this? Why isn't this a huge talking point for PP and NARAL? Why aren't the financial roots of the higher mortality rates not constantly being brought up when we talk about health care, Medicaid expansion, etc.? It just seems crazy that the issue is in the shadows.

We need these same groups that are supposed to stand up for women to start standing up for all women. I can't even see a downside? I mean, religious groups see these organizations as basically tools of the devil. Maybe rather than banging on about choice, we should focus on what clinics can - or at least should - do to improve these abysmal morality rates?

My mind is all over the place. I'm just reminded of how scared and vulnerable I felt while pregnant, and when my boys were infants. And we had great health care and doctors who look like us. It makes me ill to imagine how isolated WOC feel in similar circumstances.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

I remember reading the stats in my first semester of grad school in public health - the high maternal and infant mortality rates among black women are a standard feature in the long list of poor health disparities for black Americans. I think what is really hard, as far as talking about it and trying to find solutions, is that a lot of the poor health outcomes remain even when you control for social and economic factors. A poor black woman with a high school education and a rich black woman with a law degree both have higher prenatal and perinatal risk. So the underlying problem can't be really solved with better access to health care or more sex education, our world needs to be less racist. So, as a public health official, or a doctor, or as NARAL, what can you realistically do? (The answer is that you have to become anti-racist in order to achieve your goals, but that feels way too big to an individual and maybe not exactly their wheelhouse.) So, I guess I'm trying to explain how I understand the "silence" from the field but I'm realizing more and more than we cannot excuse it. 

Aren't there also much higher rates of GD in WOC? Advocating to fund research into problems that disproportionately affect minority groups might be a good place to start. If more WOC have GD, and more WOC lack access to proper prenatal care, and more WOC are victimized by racism in the care that they do receive, it stands to reason that infant and maternal mortality rates would be higher. We can't necessarily make a racist doctor stop being racist, but we can find out why WOC are more likely to develop a pregnancy complication in the first place. It's a start, and it's something I think would fall within the PP/NARAL wheelhouse.

[shadesofgold]

Jul 19, 2017 7:43:53 GMT -6 dc2london said:

Jul 19, 2017 6:52:30 GMT -6 shadesofgold said:

I remember reading the stats in my first semester of grad school in public health - the high maternal and infant mortality rates among black women are a standard feature in the long list of poor health disparities for black Americans. I think what is really hard, as far as talking about it and trying to find solutions, is that a lot of the poor health outcomes remain even when you control for social and economic factors. A poor black woman with a high school education and a rich black woman with a law degree both have higher prenatal and perinatal risk. So the underlying problem can't be really solved with better access to health care or more sex education, our world needs to be less racist. So, as a public health official, or a doctor, or as NARAL, what can you realistically do? (The answer is that you have to become anti-racist in order to achieve your goals, but that feels way too big to an individual and maybe not exactly their wheelhouse.) So, I guess I'm trying to explain how I understand the "silence" from the field but I'm realizing more and more than we cannot excuse it. 

Aren't there also much higher rates of GD in WOC? Advocating to fund research into problems that disproportionately affect minority groups might be a good place to start. If more WOC have GD, and more WOC lack access to proper prenatal care, and more WOC are victimized by racism in the care that they do receive, it stands to reason that infant and maternal mortality rates would be higher. We can't necessarily make a racist doctor stop being racist, but we can find out why WOC are more likely to develop a pregnancy complication in the first place. It's a start, and it's something I think would fall within the PP/NARAL wheelhouse.

Yes that's a great recommendation except nobody wants to study pregnant women. It's a huge problem but there are just too many hoops to jump through at the institutional level (IRB, consent, etc) to do research on/with/about pregnant women and a lot of perceived risk (read: liability.) It is a huge gap in the medical literature. I think that's part of the reason you see such high maternal mortality. It is much easier to do retrospective studies (after birth) but then you get into issues of bias/accuracy because nobody can remember what they ate every day when they were pregnant a year ago. That's another reason people struggle to explain the reasons and propose solutions. (This is part of the reason women's health generally is barely understood in medical science until recently... people didn't want to study women at all, let alone pregnant women.)

[joelies]

Jul 19, 2017 8:11:57 GMT -6 @heartbot said:

Another thing to consider getting behind: reparations for victims of state-forced sterilizations

OMG, the link at the end about the recent cases in CA? 

CA cases  

This quote make me feel physically ill: “Over a 10-year period, that isn’t a huge amount of money,” Heinrich said, “compared to what you save in welfare paying for these unwanted children – as they procreated more.”

Unwanted by whom?? Him? 

[shadesofgold]

Jul 19, 2017 8:05:50 GMT -6 @heartbot said:

Something to keep in mind about the maternal mortality rate is that it's not just about deaths during and immediately following pregnancy birth. The maternal mortality rate includes deaths of mothers up to a year after giving birth. A major factor in this is believed to be the fact that Medicaid coverage for mothers ends 60 days after birth. Given that half of births in America are covered by Medicaid, it's clear that the abrupt end to Medicaid when mothers may still need care for several months following birth is a huge issue and significant driver to our outrageous maternal mortality rate.

ALSO, black women experience elevated maternal mortality rates even when we control for education levels and economic status. So the issues cannot even be attributed just to lack of adequate healthcare coverage. This is why so many organizations fighting for reproductive justice are working to increase the number of non-white health care providers, to offset racism baked into our healthcare system.

Totally. Also, low infant birth weight is a very significant proxy measure for prenatal health, future childhood health (including asthma and obesity), maternal health and a host of other things. If you want to see how healthy a community is and can only look at one single statistic, you often look at rates of low infant birth weight. Black babies have much higher rates of low infant birth rate. 

[sheilathetank]

Jul 19, 2017 6:39:38 GMT -6 dc2london said:

shadesofgold ,thank you so much for posting this. I'm glad I read it. The Handmaid's Tale makes for a powerful protest and it gets attention, but it seems abundantly clear that the movement to protect reproductive rights needs to be more inclusive. I'm not sure how we do that, but I think listening (or reading) is a good start, so this essay provides a good jumping off point.

I think it starts with changing the narrative from a stance of pro choice vs. pro life to one of body autonomy for all. Language is powerful and the choice vs. life argument forces everyone to pick a side, which turns it into everyone trying to one up the other group.  

[Minerva]

There are so many racial disparities in reproductive health. Add cervical cancer to the list. Black women have higher mortality rates from lack of screenings and subpar care after diagnosis. Easy access to reproductive health clinics like PP can absolutely help to prevent these deaths. Medicaid and fully funded public health campaigns to encourage preventative care can also play a huge role.

"When we look at the difference between black and white, and rich and poor, we find the same disparity,” he said. “The quality of assessment and follow-up treatment can be different. The question becomes: how do we get adequate preventive care to all people?”

mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/23/health/cervical-cancer-united-states-death-toll.amp.html

[sterling]

Continuing the shadesofgold and sterling overlap, I'm a huge public health nerd and most of this wasn't totally new information. It's devastating, but unsurprising. I do think the pro-choice movement inadvertently alienates a lot of women. Like the women's march post election was very tied to the pro-choice movement as though that's the defining need of women in this country. And while I think access to birth control is a huge factor for many, it's not the end all/be all and as a result things like access to women's health care services for pregnant women, affordable childcare, and equal pay for equal work end up taking a backseat or secondary role in the women's movement.

I am certainly pro-choice, but just like being pro-life can't be confined to a rights of a baby in the womb but in fact the whole life of that child (health care, education, security, etc), neither can the pro-choice movement. If a woman chooses to be a mother, she should have access to pre-natal and maternal care, her job shouldn't suffer, and she should be able to afford daycare.

[kitchen]

Jul 19, 2017 8:05:50 GMT -6 @heartbot said:

Something to keep in mind about the maternal mortality rate is that it's not just about deaths during and immediately following pregnancy birth. The maternal mortality rate includes deaths of mothers up to a year after giving birth. A major factor in this is believed to be the fact that Medicaid coverage for mothers ends 60 days after birth. Given that half of births in America are covered by Medicaid, it's clear that the abrupt end to Medicaid when mothers may still need care for several months following birth is a huge issue and significant driver to our outrageous maternal mortality rate.

ALSO, black women experience elevated maternal mortality rates even when we control for education levels and economic status. So the issues cannot even be attributed just to lack of adequate healthcare coverage. This is why so many organizations fighting for reproductive justice are working to increase the number of non-white health care providers, to offset racism baked into our healthcare system.

Medicaid coverage ending so soon after birth is an interesting one.  I heard a blurb on NPR about a program wherein healthcare providers offered whatever the arm implant birth control is while mothers were still in the hospital so that they would have access to effective long term birth control before their medicaid ran out without having another appointment.  On the face of it, my reaction was that that was great.  

Further thinking though makes me realize that it's kind of bullshit to ask someone with stitches in their vag if they want this now or never knowing that they likely will not have access to follow up care (what if the hormones mess with their body in a way that doesn't work, what about BFing, what if they decide they want another baby)?  Reproductive justice. 

One more way that access to healthcare on a broad basis is integral to justice on a broad basis.

[shadesofgold]

Jul 19, 2017 9:00:33 GMT -6 sterling said:

Continuing the shadesofgold and sterling overlap, I'm a huge public health nerd and most of this wasn't totally new information. It's devastating, but unsurprising. I do think the pro-choice movement inadvertently alienates a lot of women. Like the women's march post election was very tied to the pro-choice movement as though that's the defining need of women in this country. And while I think access to birth control is a huge factor for many, it's not the end all/be all and as a result things like access to women's health care services for pregnant women, affordable childcare, and equal pay for equal work end up taking a backseat or secondary role in the women's movement.

I am certainly pro-choice, but just like being pro-life can't be confined to a rights of a baby in the womb but in fact the whole life of that child (health care, education, security, etc), neither can the pro-choice movement. If a woman chooses to be a mother, she should have access to pre-natal and maternal care, her job shouldn't suffer, and she should be able to afford daycare.

[sterling]

Jul 19, 2017 9:35:37 GMT -6 shadesofgold said:

Jul 19, 2017 9:00:33 GMT -6 sterling said:

Continuing the shadesofgold and sterling overlap, I'm a huge public health nerd and most of this wasn't totally new information. It's devastating, but unsurprising. I do think the pro-choice movement inadvertently alienates a lot of women. Like the women's march post election was very tied to the pro-choice movement as though that's the defining need of women in this country. And while I think access to birth control is a huge factor for many, it's not the end all/be all and as a result things like access to women's health care services for pregnant women, affordable childcare, and equal pay for equal work end up taking a backseat or secondary role in the women's movement.

I am certainly pro-choice, but just like being pro-life can't be confined to a rights of a baby in the womb but in fact the whole life of that child (health care, education, security, etc), neither can the pro-choice movement. If a woman chooses to be a mother, she should have access to pre-natal and maternal care, her job shouldn't suffer, and she should be able to afford daycare.

That was us pre-trump. We're bag lady Olsen twins now.

[bazi]

Sharing this Natio article for anyone who is interested:


www.thenation.com/article/whats-killing-americas-black-infants/

[cyprissa]

Have you guys seen this series on maternal mortality? Obviously a big TW.

www.propublica.org/article/lost-mothers-maternal-health-died-childbirth-pregnancy


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