Responding to family

[doublestuf]

I know I've posted about this before, but I need some help please.

So last fall I sent my immediate family an email calling them out for their bigoted and hateful beliefs. There wasn't too much acknowledgment by most anyone except my mom. We've had some conversations, but have never got to a point of "resolution." She wants resolution and some peace about it, but there is one area I think they (being my mom and her H) are going to bring up, and I need help explaining/responding please.

I straight up called them hypocrites because they are. They go to church yet it is [was] nothing to hear racist, homophobic language, mostly out of my mom's H's mouth. I can see them trying to accuse me of the same since I explained how important it is to me for my children to see models of open-mindnesses and love. Of course, they are going to respond along the lines of "by sending us this angry, accusatory email you are not demonstrating that." You know, not tolerating their beliefs is just proof that I'm not really that tolerant at all.

Obviously they don't see that they're not morally equivalent. How do I break that down for them? I get it may not make a difference, but I'm going to try...

[elle]

Ah the good old tolerance paradox. To be completely honest it's really difficult to explain to people who don't get it to begin with, their brains just can't wrap around the fact that by tolerating intolerance you're tacitly approving of the intolerance, therefore inevitably destroying the tolerant society.

There have been many things written about this in the recent past, for obvious reasons. Again not sure if any of these explanations will help them understand, but perhaps it will at least arm you with a rebuttal?



link

link

link (although this last piece is rather short, I like that it addresses that our modern means of communication and social media platforms have completely changed things)

[lemondrop]

I used to try, and then I just... stopped. There was really no use to trying to change anyone’s mind when they had zero desire to do so. So I cut basically everyone out. (My mother, brother and sister).

I grew up as a Super Catholic. Parochial school for my whole life, a mission trip to Haiti, the whole 9 yards. It wasn’t until college where an Orthodox Jewish friend had an abortion because her baby was found to have Tay Sachs at 20 weeks did I realize that she was absolutely not going to hell. Meanwhile my mother just regurgitated my (dead) father’s beliefs and my brother became a Marine and went full Republican 2A men’s rights fanatic. They have no desire to think of other people’s situations, so I no longer think of theirs. Oh well. It’s their loss.

[doublestuf]

elle that stuff is great, I just think it's over their heads. We're still working on things like privilege and understanding that it exists with very basic examples like no one overlooks your resume because of your first name.

But, I will save those links because I can see them coming in handy in different contexts, and maybe, just maybe in the future with them.

[doublestuf]

I'm sorry you've dealt with that lemondrop. It's so hard, especially now that you have a LO.

For now, I am still trying. We live close by, and I want my kids to have relationships with their grandparents if possible. They know my line and have respected it so far.

Unfortunately, I am probably the only person in their lives that they would otherwise hear this from. I feel some sense of obligation and duty to try get them to make small changes in their beliefs. My mom is very much capable and more willing to change. It will be slow and frustrating at times, but I very much think worth it.

[doublestuf]

@icedtea, your straightforward question is great. Plus, the whole questioning thing is supposed to work better than just telling. If it comes up like I think it will, I will definitely use that.

[lemondrop]

Jul 21, 2019 18:54:52 GMT -6 doublestuf said:

I'm sorry you've dealt with that lemondrop. It's so hard, especially now that you have a LO.

For now, I am still trying. We live close by, and I want my kids to have relationships with their grandparents if possible. They know my line and have respected it so far.

Unfortunately, I am probably the only person in their lives that they would otherwise hear this from. I feel some sense of obligation and duty to try get them to make small changes in their beliefs. My mom is very much capable and more willing to change. It will be slow and frustrating at times, but I very much think worth it.

Honestly, if they gave any inkling that they’d be willing to reconsider their beliefs and open their scope from their very limited views, I’d be more willing to attempt to teach and guide them - acknowledging that even the best of us can stumble and they may not get it right away. I owe it to my friends who have led me the same way, especially those who saw me back when I was more conservative and taught me. If your mom is willing to try, I’d try. Even starting with one issue (LGBTQ rights, the economy, immigration, etc) and then another, and watching them become stitched together. And then bitching here when you need to. Lol.

[jkjacq]

At this point I would tell them its not a political difference you hold but a moral one. We arent talking about defense spending vs infrastructure vs SNAP benefits (although racism plays a part in those as well).

Its MORALLY corrupt to put children in cages. Its MORALLY corrupt to lessen someone because of the color of their skin or country of origin. If Christ were walking the concentration camps, he wouldn't be passing by and making memes, he'd be passing out loaves of bread or some shit. (I dont identify as christian so its harder for me to make that argument). If you need religion to tell you how to be a good and kind person then you are not truly at heart a good and kind person.

I'm sorry you're in this place with your family. It can't be easy

[summerbabe]

Jul 22, 2019 6:54:08 GMT -6 jkjacq said:

At this point I would tell them its not a political difference you hold but a moral one. We arent talking about defense spending vs infrastructure vs SNAP benefits (although racism plays a part in those as well).

Its MORALLY corrupt to put children in cages. Its MORALLY corrupt to lessen someone because of the color of their skin or country of origin. If Christ were walking the concentration camps, he wouldn't be passing by and making memes, he'd be passing out loaves of bread or some shit. (I dont identify as christian so its harder for me to make that argument). If you need religion to tell you how to be a good and kind person then you are not truly at heart a good and kind person.

I'm sorry you're in this place with your family. It can't be easy

The moral issue has really been resonating with me, and I like the work that "The Poor People's Campaign: A National Call for Moral Revival" -https://www.poorpeoplescampaign.org/fundamental-principles/ has been doing.

[ilovelamp]

(I would have kept it as simple as possible-
I don’t like when I hear racist and homophobic remarks, can you refrain from making these remarks in my presence and understand that these remarks have affected the way that I view you as a person and it is hard for me to look past. )
You can’t control people and you can’t change what they feel but you can set boundaries in a healthy way by respecting each other’s wishes. If they can’t respect you enough to make this small change in the way they talk around you, they may just be toxic to keep around.

There will never be a way for you to look past racism and homophobic behavior. You can limit your time with these people but it is unrealistic to expect someone to change how they feel or that they won’t be racist anymore because they were called out on it.

It’s up to you if you want to associate with these people or not. It’s a tough choice to alienate yourself from the world, but moreso your family. A lot of people hold these same beliefs and to some people it’s just become about living among people who are different than you and accepting them as they come.. Even if they aren’t accepting of others themselves.
It would be nice if people could realize their behavior was problematic and change. However, a lot of people these days think they are right and aren’t willing to accept they are wrong.
When I think about tolerance I think about acceptance. You can accept someone for who they are and not ascribe to their beliefs. You can also protect yourself from being tainted by those same beliefs by not associating with them. It’s not wrong to disassociate when it protects your beliefs. It’s also not wrong to accept a person for their beliefs and still associate with them even if they are against what you believe in.

[doublestuf]

Reviving this because I have another question-

So said conversation did happen last night, and they tried to play the moral equivalencies game (as I said in the other thread, my mom's H thought he was really pulling one over when he proclaimed "using the Lord's name in vain and saying the F word-I guess that's why I'm guilty of-are equally as offensive as racist and homophobic language." Best was he then dropped the F bomb appx 2 min later.) I used all the things in this thread, so thank you! He is an absolute lost cause and not someone I will waste my breath on again.

But, my mom again showed signs of hope. She asked me what was one thing I would like her to do. Part of our conversation stemmed around systemic racism on a very basic level. They needed to point out that they aren't racist because they do things like donate food and such to various groups and it doesn't matter what color their skin is! They can't let children go hungry because their parents aren't good people! This is where I really tried to help them understand the cycle of poverty and systemic racism. That their parents aren't just lazy people taking advantage of welfare (it's rampant apparently!) but are caught in all kinds of things out of their control working to keep them in that position.

So, since donating food to hungry children is "very near and dear to their heart," I think it would be great if their was a documentary/book/article on this topic. I told her I want her to understand the "whys" and "hows" of our society. Any suggestions? The more basic the better because we are clearly starting from the bottom. Thanks, ladies!

[Deleted]

Just google redlining and you’ll get lots of good info that they might be open to reading.
There’s some good Youtube videos about the school to prison pipeline.
I follow Rachel Cargle on IG and she has lots of good resources in her link tree.

[blurnette989]

I success had a conversation Tonight with a woman I'm. Sure I didn't win over, but maybe at least expanded her perspective a but. I told stories of f but the legal and illegal immigrants and pointed at when she couldn't tell the difference. I showed how broken the system is currently and how that affects even her happy legal immigrants. Okay not have convinced her to support somebody other than Trump, but I think I at least have her perspective enoughthatshe might not call ice on her neighbors.

ETA sorry for the terrible grammar above. I was pretty tips.

[Deleted]

doublestuf, While not strictly focusing on food, "Evicted: Poverty and Profit in the American City" is good.

[stringy]

So we are on vacation at the beach and my ILs are here for a few nights. Relevant background, they watch our kids one day a week and have forever. They are very much a don’t talk about politics kind of family- but my FIL gets all his info from Fox News. We live in a liberal bubble, except their corner of the state which is not so much. So he doesn’t talk about politics at all and my MIL at least has some sense to her and generally votes democrat. Which in all other areas of life I’d relate to FIL more- he’s just more personable. Oh and if I’ve never made it clear, I’m married to his daughter so- same sex family here.

Anyway, he and I went for a walk on the beach today and overheard someone else say something about Obama. Now I know he voted for 45 in ‘16 but haven’t talked to him about it much at all. So I asked him if he was gonna vote for him again. And he said of course. It really surprised me. He’s a vet, he seems to have morals, and I thought he’d see it. I asked what he thought he’d done well for our country and he said something about people have jobs now. I asked if it bothered him that he was hurting, if not causing the deaths of many people, and he dismissed it as fake news. I asked if he wanted my girls to grow up with him as the role model of our leader and he said no, but he’d be long gone by then. Which doesn’t make sense as I have a first grader. I asked if he realized that he and pence wouldn’t want my family to exist in the first place- and I can’t remember what he said because I was trying not to completely break down. Luckily we got interrupted then. And I realized how fast my heart was beating. I couldn’t bring it up again. This man has 4 granddaughters and 2 great granddaughters. How can he want them to grow up in this environment?

I haven’t been able to tell my wife about the convo yet. She won’t be that surprised- but she also won’t be able to do anything about it. She’s of the “head in the sand” variety except when I force her to talk about or acknowledge what’s going on. So I don’t think there’s anything I can do. I don’t even know what I want to do. But I needed to spell it all out. I felt so dumb- because he was so sure of himself and while I’m also sure of myself- I’m not good at confrontation especially when it hits home like that.

Sorry for the lengthy post. And thank you all for helping me even have that much of a confrontation - as I usually just keep silent.

[Uncaripswife]

stringy I think it's good you said something. You stood up for yourself and your wife. Don't stop.

[jkjacq]

stringy I’m sorry he hurt you

Hopefully you gave him something to chew on for a bit. A lot of change of thought has to come incrementally and it always doesn’t have to be knock down drag out.
People who feel safe in their bubble don’t always associate their thinking and impacts on even immediate family. I hope he has a light bulb moment and can change his thinking and eventually apologize

[stringy]

Aug 15, 2019 19:34:32 GMT -6 Uncaripswife said:

stringy I think it's good you said something. You stood up for yourself and your wife. Don't stop.

I don’t feel like I stood up for us enough. For me at least. My wife would probably just tell me not to bring it up with him anymore.

[jaygee]

Aug 15, 2019 19:49:34 GMT -6 stringy said:

Aug 15, 2019 19:34:32 GMT -6 Uncaripswife said:

stringy I think it's good you said something. You stood up for yourself and your wife. Don't stop.

I don’t feel like I stood up for us enough. For me at least. My wife would probably just tell me not to bring it up with him anymore.

I think you did. Don’t feel badly about how you handled it. It’s shocking when it’s happening in person and when you are literally talking about your own rights and safety. I hope he takes what you said to heart. ❤️❤️❤️

[milano]

stringy you had the conversation. Whether you felt that you were confident or not or that you said exactly the right thing is not the most important thing- he heard you voicing concerns about your family, which is also his family. Maybe this conversation sticks in his mind and is the beginning of a change for him. I doubt he's going to wake up tomorrow and denounce trump, but change has to start somewhere.

I am sure you are reeling with disbelief that he could seemingly disregard all the concerns that you have. You know I struggle on that front with my dad. It's truly mind-boggling. But maybe you can be the one who makes a difference here because you are the only one brave enough to actually talk to him. Sending you hugs.

[enchanted]

stringy I'm sorry. You said something. That's more than many do. ❤️

[stringy]

Aug 15, 2019 19:41:02 GMT -6 jkjacq said:

stringy I’m sorry he hurt you

Hopefully you gave him something to chew on for a bit. A lot of change of thought has to come incrementally and it always doesn’t have to be knock down drag out.
People who feel safe in their bubble don’t always associate their thinking and impacts on even immediate family. I hope he has a light bulb moment and can change his thinking and eventually apologize

I was just re-reading this thread and wanted to say I did use the moral angle a bit. So thank you for that cuz it def came from here.

[Deleted]

Reading this now
www.pbs.org/newshour/show/how-southern-black-farmers-were-forced-from-their-land-and-their-heritage?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=pbsofficial&utm_campaign=newshour

[cakewench]

stringy , I'm so sorry. You are so brave for even having the conversation. So many hugs.

(Also, job growth has slowed since Trump became president, so giving people more jobs is fake news.)

[stringy]

So I brought it up casually to my wife and she wasn’t surprised at all. She assumes he’s a lost cause. She said it drives her mom nuts and is mostly “just” ignorance.

I’m still baffled at the level of misogyny and racism he apparently holds- which is the type where he’d deny it for days but is clearly there. Like I can’t believe he actually would agree to those things if phrased differently- but when it’s being “not PC” and joking around it’s funny and okay.

I told her I plan to make sending him articles my new hobby. Except I have to find a source that he won’t assume is fake. And I plan to start with the LGBT and women’s issues- since that should hit home.

This thread was very helpful though.

[ilovelamp]

stringy
How in detail did you go with him on the LGBT issue? That topic is personal to him because it is directly relevant to your family. I would have made that issue my main point on why you don’t understand why he supports Trump. He still has a right to his opinion but knowledge is power and when presented effectively it has the ability to influence people who are compassionate.
He may not have any knowledge on the matter, I can tell you I know people who have voted for him that if they knew this about Trumps administration they would think twice on his re-election.
Here is an article you can share that explains what Trump is doing that affects you and other LGBT and Trans people in this country:
www.washingtonblade.com/2017/06/11/heres-how-trump-has-undermined-lgbt-rights-so-far/

[stringy]

ilovelamp, I hadn't consciously planned the conversation so didn't go into much detail. It would be my main issue moving forward. One thing I worry as I skimmed that article, is that he likely doesn't understand the (lack of) difference between gay rights and trans rights. He'd likely still be vocally anti-trans - because no one in his family identifies that way. And getting him to understand that relationship is a whole other ordeal. He's also a vet and I guarantee he'd be anti trans in the military - which has been the most obvious change when looking at headlines.

That said, I'm on the lookout for things to send him that are accessible. I worry that he won't read anything at length and likely gets his news from headlines from Fox and stupid forwards sent from his buddies (apparently ppl still do that).

[Dr. Cox]

I’m so sorry, stringy. ❤️❤️
You are awesome.

[Deleted]

NPRs Code Switch podcast is pretty good
www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/

I just watched one that had a very simple explanation of redlining and it’s effects.

[stringy]

Sent my first article to him today.
newsweek.com/trump-justice-gay-lgbt-discrimination-civil-rights-1455977

Reinforced by our 5 yo niece calling her little sister gay at her bday party today. Her parents were appalled but she still heard it somewhere. So it’s lovely that it’s prevalent in the day care crowd. Unsure if FIL heard it.