Minerva
Ruby
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Post by Minerva on Feb 20, 2018 11:34:46 GMT -6
I’m going to be frank. I give less than two shits about anyone’s investment in guns. My dad has antique guns (nothing automatic or more than hunting rifles) that have been in his family for generations. He has it written in his will that I can have them destroyed upon his passing. He’s pretty close to doing it himself right now even though he has them so secured they never see the light of day. This is a man that had them hanging on his bedroom wall when I was younger. He’s evolved in his position because he values life over money or objects. We’ve done it this way for hundreds of years and it’s not working. Let’s try something different. Will it be tough, yes. Will it be divisive, yes. But if it saves even one person’s life it is worth trying. And it will. I mean, come on. I mostly feel this way too, with the exception that I plan to safely store or donate my dad’s antique muzzleloader if I end up with it (my brother hunts, so I imagine he will inherit it).
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piccyami
Platinum
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Post by piccyami on Feb 20, 2018 11:38:56 GMT -6
Right? I think of the Las Vegas shooter. He'd owned guns for decades without murdering anyone. Then he did. I've been reading a lot of literature on the research surrounding gun violence & when it comes to mass shootings, it is nearly impossible to determine who will actually do this. There are so many gun owners w/ issues, and most of them never do anything terrible. There are so many gun owners who seem NOT to have issues then who *do* do terrible things. There are so many people who make threats and say crazy things, and most of them never do anything terrible, either. The number who follow through are small, and that's part of why they slip through the cracks w/ mental health professionals, teachers, law enforcement, etc. It's why virtually all research on the matter asserts that you can't effectively stop mass shootings specifically and gun violence generally by targeting the who. You have to target the mechanism for mass shootings: easy access to guns. And plus, speaking from direct personal experience, when people are in small towns going through mental health crises, their family may be less likely to call the cops or tell anyone, and even if the cops are called they may not file a report or take objective action to "protect" a friend's reputation. So even people who should have a criminal record won't necessarily. There are way too many opportunities for human error to rely on trusting humans. I'm going to mention this again. Amy Bishop Anderson KILLED her brother among other things and it didn't show up on the background check to work at a public university or the one to obtain a gun. Mom was able to brush it under the rug because it would have harmed their reputations.
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jkjacq
Ruby
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Post by jkjacq on Feb 20, 2018 11:39:21 GMT -6
You guys. Guns are not 'expensive'. adding in the one time cost of a safe (which will run thousands) and ammo make them a little more expensive but they are not cost prohibitive. Well. Some guns *are* expensive, and some people have large collections that run into the tens of thousands of dollars. I know a lot of people who consider themselves collectors & their guns are as much a source of investment as they are a source of sport/protection/etc. They may buy when their financial situation is good, then sell if they lose a job or need to cash in for a big one-time purchase like a car or a down payment on their home. (Where I'm from, this is actually super common.) So to argue there is no financial investment here is sort of ridiculous. For some people, underpriced buybacks might constitute tens of thousands of dollars in investment income. I think appropriately funding buy-back programs and grandfathering in ownership of some guns for some owners would be necessary if we wanted to encourage gun owners to turn over their collections. Many would view anything less as government theft, even non-radical gun owners. *snip* There are a million things that can be done to limit gun ownership, to promote responsible gun ownership, to make behavior that shows you at risk of killing someone to be unable to get your hands on a weapon, to improve the safety of guns, etc. We aren't doing any of them, b/c we're too busy fighting with the fringe of society instead of building a coalition of gun owners and non-gun owners who think the 2a shouldn't mean anyone should be able to get their hands on a gun & insane amounts of ammo & come into schools or concerts or churches or movie theatres or malls and murder children. In less than an hour and for under 800 bucks I could get this And that includes a background check. Ruger Ruger® AR-556™ Semiautomatic Tactical Rifle 16" medium-contour cold-hammer-forged barrel Durable synthetic stock and glass-filled nylon handguards Milled gas block for improved balance and handling Ergonomic pistol grip and telescoping buttstock Includes one 10- or 30-round magazine AR-556 is direct impingent, and the SR-556 is piston driven. Ruger's AR-556 Semiautomatic Tactical Rifles boast a matte-black 16" medium-contour cold-hammer-forged barrel with ultraprecise rifling that delivers exceptional accuracy, longevity and corrosion resistance. Durable synthetic stock and heat-resistant, glass-filled nylon handguards withstand wear and tear for long-lasting performance. Ergonomic pistol grip and six-position, telescoping M4-style buttstock provide an excellent hold. Low-glare milled gas block located at a carbine-length (M4) position offers improved balance and handling. Flat-top upper receiver with forward assist, dust cover and brass deflector. Also features matte black-oxide bolt carrier with staked gas key. Elevation-adjustable front sight and Rapid Deploy folding rear sight. Multiple adjustment points for many sling and accessory options. Includes one 10-round or 30-round Magpul PMAG® magazine and front-sight tool. AR-556 is direct impingent, and the SR-556 is piston driven. Made in USA. I would spend LESS time if I were at a gun show here to purchase it. I'm not talking about collectors, I'm talking about the average schmoe Or in Floridas case an 18 year old kid. The gun above is pretty similar to the one he used. its not cost prohibitive in most places. I know there are people who have thousands of dollars in guns in their homes. I know people who make their own ammo.
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Post by charlotte on Feb 20, 2018 11:41:55 GMT -6
I just don’t care. Grown adults can go on and on to me about their feelings over their guns and I give no fucks.
Do we criminally charge parents of minors who access their guns for crimes? (I really don’t know?) We should.
*I know a give-no-fucks attitude is not productive but that’s where I’m at today. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I’ll try again another day.
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cmb
Sapphire
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Post by cmb on Feb 20, 2018 11:44:55 GMT -6
This is a brilliant approach, TBH. If people had to pay a premium on their home owners or renters insurance for owning guns, b/c of the real threat to safety (mostly to children)... Devil's advocate - how would the logistics be put in place? And, like so many things, this would depend on people being honest in their self-reporting, etc. There are tons of people driving around without insurance, with lapsed insurance, under-insured, and just hoping they don't get stopped. I'm on my condo association board....owners are required to have insurance for the interior of their units (well, duh, you would think). However, once their mortgage is paid (and thus not reporting to the mortgage holder), you'd be surprised how many people decide they'd rather save that $300 for the condo insurance premium. And are sadly surprised if there is damage to the interior. And some people flat out will lie to save a dollar - ignore building codes, underinsure their cars, neglect to add drivers, like about medical conditions, you name it. Sure, when it catches up with them, it's not pretty - but I think you end up going back, sadly, to all the laws in the world will not instill integrity and responsibility if a human simply doesn't want to be responsible. Now, maybe there could be an integrated requirement - want to purchase a gun? Before hand, show evidence of safety certification, show insurance, etc., then get your gun. I'm really not sure how it would work. Also not sure how the major insurers would work out the underwriting....that would be an interesting study on its own. Here, if your insurance lapses, they cancel your plates and it’s a giant headache to resolve. You can also get your license suspended and car impounded. The insurance companies run weekly, if not daily, (im not sure how often it’s reported) reports over to DMV. It could be similar. The insurance lapses or is canceled, your license can be revoked and items repossessed.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Feb 20, 2018 11:49:15 GMT -6
I think what's really appalling to me is that we moved immediately and swiftly to keep firearms out of airports. But we won't act to keep them out of our schools.
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Post by charlotte on Feb 20, 2018 11:49:57 GMT -6
The cost of the gun you purchased by choice is likely significantly less than the cost of the casket 17 families had to purchase this week. So. My heart does not bleed for the gun owners, here.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 11:54:41 GMT -6
I just don’t care. Grown adults can go on and on to me about their feelings over their guns and I give no fucks. Do we criminally charge parents of minors who access their guns for crimes? (I really don’t know?) We should. *I know a give-no-fucks attitude is not productive but that’s where I’m at today. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I’ll try again another day. Obviously this is where I am today too. Partially because I pulled the cover over my eyes for most of the past 5 days since the shooting and I’m just peaking out. I’m so angry. Just so, so angry.
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Post by greykitty on Feb 20, 2018 12:04:37 GMT -6
Devil's advocate - how would the logistics be put in place? And, like so many things, this would depend on people being honest in their self-reporting, etc. There are tons of people driving around without insurance, with lapsed insurance, under-insured, and just hoping they don't get stopped. I'm on my condo association board....owners are required to have insurance for the interior of their units (well, duh, you would think). However, once their mortgage is paid (and thus not reporting to the mortgage holder), you'd be surprised how many people decide they'd rather save that $300 for the condo insurance premium. And are sadly surprised if there is damage to the interior. And some people flat out will lie to save a dollar - ignore building codes, underinsure their cars, neglect to add drivers, like about medical conditions, you name it. Sure, when it catches up with them, it's not pretty - but I think you end up going back, sadly, to all the laws in the world will not instill integrity and responsibility if a human simply doesn't want to be responsible. Now, maybe there could be an integrated requirement - want to purchase a gun? Before hand, show evidence of safety certification, show insurance, etc., then get your gun. I'm really not sure how it would work. Also not sure how the major insurers would work out the underwriting....that would be an interesting study on its own. Here, if your insurance lapses, they cancel your plates and it’s a giant headache to resolve. You can also get your license suspended and car impounded. The insurance companies run weekly, if not daily, (im not sure how often it’s reported) reports over to DMV. It could be similar. The insurance lapses or is canceled, your license can be revoked and items repossessed. and that is, IMO, a good thing - but, I wonder, how often are cars pulled over and impounded, though? And, again, devil's advocate - a gun's insurance lapses - who/how is the gun repossessed from the owner? Easy to move object, all that. I guess my only point is that whenever a policy is proposed, it's good to think through the logistics and the devil is so often in the details of how will XX be enforced.
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Post by nosleepnation on Feb 20, 2018 12:11:09 GMT -6
I really can't pull myself away from the news coverage of the parkland teens grabbing the government by the balls and demanding they be heard on gun control. Just a week ago, these kids had dating and college and sports on their mind, and now they have become some of the best advocates this country has ever seen. I wish i could meet their parents and give them a hug for how well they have raised their kids, and i hope so deeply my own children will be as passionate and well spoken on equally important issues. Our roles as parents are so so essential in the change we seek, you guys.
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Post by morecoffeeplease on Feb 20, 2018 12:21:57 GMT -6
Neighboring high school stages a walkout, hundreds of students headed to Stoneman Douglas.
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Post by morecoffeeplease on Feb 20, 2018 12:25:38 GMT -6
Article says it is 7 miles, which is quite a hike. Go kids!
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Post by enchanted on Feb 20, 2018 12:39:09 GMT -6
Neighboring high school stages a walkout, hundreds of students headed to Stoneman Douglas. And cue sobbing from me. This is amazing.
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Post by earlybird on Feb 20, 2018 12:43:51 GMT -6
Today I am feeling hopeful. All these teens trying to get their voices heard. I have a call on Thursday about starting a Moms Demand Action chapter and there are 3 other moms in my town who are interested in helping lead as well. We already have a group email going and I’ve spoken to one on the phone as well. Changes need to be made and we have to start SOMEWHERE.
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jkjacq
Ruby
Posts: 21,742 Likes: 94,334
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Post by jkjacq on Feb 20, 2018 12:53:36 GMT -6
Here, if your insurance lapses, they cancel your plates and it’s a giant headache to resolve. You can also get your license suspended and car impounded. The insurance companies run weekly, if not daily, (im not sure how often it’s reported) reports over to DMV. It could be similar. The insurance lapses or is canceled, your license can be revoked and items repossessed. and that is, IMO, a good thing - but, I wonder, how often are cars pulled over and impounded, though? And, again, devil's advocate - a gun's insurance lapses - who/how is the gun repossessed from the owner? Easy to move object, all that. I guess my only point is that whenever a policy is proposed, it's good to think through the logistics and the devil is so often in the details of how will XX be enforced. Here its a 54 dollar ticket and suspension of your license, both of which can be negated if you show up at the DMV with proof within 45 days.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Feb 20, 2018 12:57:05 GMT -6
Prediction: Sarah will show up 30 minutes late so she can only take questions for about 20 minutes before scuttling off to POTUS' schpiel
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Post by bugglesbee on Feb 20, 2018 13:18:36 GMT -6
I keep hearing the argument that many gun owners feel they need their guns to potentially fight the government. Why then do so many of them support candidates that want to do nothing but strengthen the military? Don’t those things conflict? Not that I expect a lot of logical thinking from people these days...
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Post by enchanted on Feb 20, 2018 13:20:34 GMT -6
I keep hearing the argument that many gun owners feel they need their guns to potentially fight the government. Why then do so many of them support candidates that want to do nothing but strengthen the military? Don’t those things conflict? Not that I expect a lot of logical thinking from people these days... Because their AR is going to do so much good against tanks and drones. 🙄
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Feb 20, 2018 13:32:54 GMT -6
So predictable. They just pushed the briefing to 250. POTUS event is at 330
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 13:35:03 GMT -6
I really can't pull myself away from the news coverage of the parkland teens grabbing the government by the balls and demanding they be heard on gun control. Just a week ago, these kids had dating and college and sports on their mind, and now they have become some of the best advocates this country has ever seen. I wish i could meet their parents and give them a hug for how well they have raised their kids, and i hope so deeply my own children will be as passionate and well spoken on equally important issues. Our roles as parents are so so essential in the change we seek, you guys. And you know how often times older generations pick apart the young? They are too spoiled, undisciplined, ungrateful brats, always on their phones, listening to shitty music and watching bad TV.
Welp, the older generations can suck it. Because they were and are very wrong.
Basically, I'm with the kids. The adults in charge need to step aside.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Feb 20, 2018 13:35:24 GMT -6
This is too close to home.
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jkjacq
Ruby
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Post by jkjacq on Feb 20, 2018 13:50:53 GMT -6
I keep hearing the argument that many gun owners feel they need their guns to potentially fight the government. Why then do so many of them support candidates that want to do nothing but strengthen the military? Don’t those things conflict? Not that I expect a lot of logical thinking from people these days... Because their AR is going to do so much good against tanks and drones. 🙄 I'm getting used to my tinfoil hat after a year, but I have yet to figure out what, exactly, people are going to take up arms against a tyrannical govt for? I mean if all the racist rednecks didn't bother after Obama, then really what? and No billy bob you're AR isn't going to stop a tank rolling thru your breakfast nook
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fatpony
Amethyst
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Post by fatpony on Feb 20, 2018 13:59:19 GMT -6
Jesus.
From @time: WH staffers were unable to convince Trump to mute his tweets to Mueller indictments, so they booked spokesmen on Fox News "to try to direct Trump toward a little less fanciful readings of the indictments." #ThisIsntNormal
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Feb 20, 2018 14:02:27 GMT -6
for anyone keeping score at home, the first press briefing in a week is now a full hour late, and will have to wrap up in 30 minutes d/t a medal ceremony
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jkjacq
Ruby
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Post by jkjacq on Feb 20, 2018 14:06:10 GMT -6
for anyone keeping score at home, the first press briefing in a week is now a full hour late, and will have to wrap up in 30 minutes d/t a medal ceremony I have CNN on and they are just trying to fill air time. With stuff about Russia.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Feb 20, 2018 14:08:05 GMT -6
for anyone keeping score at home, the first press briefing in a week is now a full hour late, and will have to wrap up in 30 minutes d/t a medal ceremony I have CNN on and they are just trying to fill air time. With stuff about Russia. I'm watching Homeland while I wait haha
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 14:10:04 GMT -6
So, because some may not do this, what is your suggestion? Should we not do it at all? And continue to just say "welp we're fucked sorry."
Like I mentioned over on GD, this is the theme on my FB feed right now. "These actions won't solve 100% of the problem so don't bother". Mmmkay. Not saying dazed has that attitude, just commenting. Thank you. Because I don’t feel that way and would welcome some changes. I actually think MA (where I am) does a pretty decent job on gun regulations but it needs to be at a federal level for real change.
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Post by morecoffeeplease on Feb 20, 2018 14:10:24 GMT -6
for anyone keeping score at home, the first press briefing in a week is now a full hour late, and will have to wrap up in 30 minutes d/t a medal ceremony I know it's not top priority, but I'd love someone to ask how the heck Shulkin? (Not sure of spelling-VA guy) still has a job.
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dc2london
Admin
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Post by dc2london on Feb 20, 2018 14:11:24 GMT -6
Oh my, Mr Brennan "It never ceases to amaze me how successful you have been making yourself so small, petty, and banal with your tweets. Your insecurity is well deserved, as is your concern over Russia investigation. Thomas Paine was right when he said, "These are the times that try men's souls." t.co/EfaDBlYejF"
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fatpony
Amethyst
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Post by fatpony on Feb 20, 2018 14:14:56 GMT -6
a list of what has happened since last press briefing
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