jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Oct 14, 2019 15:53:52 GMT -6
I’m frankly over Mayor Pete so some of my saltiness is related to that.
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CurlieWhirlie
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Post by CurlieWhirlie on Oct 14, 2019 16:01:13 GMT -6
I had never considered that perspective, jkjacq, that people might consider a buyback program "confiscation of personal property." That's good to know. It doesn't change how I feel about wanting to take all the guns, but it's helpful to understand how others might feel, even those who are in favor of stricter gun laws. jaygee, I am with you on being over Mayor Pete. And the coverage he gets vs. Kamala just makes me mad. Not his fault, and that's not the reason I'm over him, but it definitely makes me salty. |
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Post by coconutbacon on Oct 14, 2019 16:07:10 GMT -6
It can be both though— a bold proposal *and* worded in a way that isn’t, at the very least, unnecessarily incendiary to 2A people. That’s not just about getting the nomination, or even the presidency. That’s long game for actually having a shot at getting meaningful legislation passed. Well buy back sounds a lot more palatable than confiscate. But I’m fine with whatever moves the ball forward. I’m honestly fine with either because I am completely in favor of the position that American citizens don’t need to own assault rifles in 2019. So yeah, I guess I’m coming for the guns. I’m just agreeing with Booker that a dem candidate using the NRA’s own language is not a good look. I think we can do better than that even if a candidate is not in favor of a mandatory buy back. Oh, I am in agreement that buy back is a much better term! Or maybe we need a completely new term! Definitely not confiscate. |
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Oct 14, 2019 16:09:47 GMT -6
Well buy back sounds a lot more palatable than confiscate. But I’m fine with whatever moves the ball forward. I’m honestly fine with either because I am completely in favor of the position that American citizens don’t need to own assault rifles in 2019. So yeah, I guess I’m coming for the guns. I’m just agreeing with Booker that a dem candidate using the NRA’s own language is not a good look. I think we can do better than that even if a candidate is not in favor of a mandatory buy back. Oh, I am in agreement that buy back is a much better term! Or maybe we need a completely new term! Definitely not confiscate. Maybe we can package it with Medicare. “Give is your assault rifle and we’ll give you Medicare.” It needs some marketing/slogan help but it might work. Lol. |
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Oct 14, 2019 16:18:39 GMT -6
Well buy back sounds a lot more palatable than confiscate. But I’m fine with whatever moves the ball forward. I’m honestly fine with either because I am completely in favor of the position that American citizens don’t need to own assault rifles in 2019. So yeah, I guess I’m coming for the guns. I’m just agreeing with Booker that a dem candidate using the NRA’s own language is not a good look. I think we can do better than that even if a candidate is not in favor of a mandatory buy back. Oh, I am in agreement that buy back is a much better term! Or maybe we need a completely new term! Definitely not confiscate. To be clear I'm strictly speaking to mandatory buyback.
But its...mandatory, so you American Joe or Jane do not have a choice to give me, the govt, back your weapon. Sure I'm going to compensate you for it, but if you choose not to participate we're going to fine you, possibly arrest you, come into your home and take it anyway, etc.
Voluntary buybacks are a whole different thing.
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Post by Uncaripswife on Oct 14, 2019 17:30:21 GMT -6
A couple things.
A lot of liberal people, including myself, don't like mandatory buybacks. Voluntary, hell yes. But I don't support a mandatory buyback and I don't believe I'm an anomaly. I believe I saw a stat (in Moms Demand Action or Everytown literature) indicating that the percentage of Americans that support mandatory buybacks is low.
Plus, Mayor Pete represents people in Indiana. I bet a LOT of his constituents don't support mandatory buybacks either.
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Post by coconutbacon on Oct 14, 2019 18:06:42 GMT -6
Oh, I am in agreement that buy back is a much better term! Or maybe we need a completely new term! Definitely not confiscate. Maybe we can package it with Medicare. “Give is your assault rifle and we’ll give you Medicare.” It needs some marketing/slogan help but it might work. Lol. Or a really good tax credit. |
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Post by doublestuf on Oct 14, 2019 19:31:23 GMT -6
I’m frankly over Mayor Pete so some of my saltiness is related to that. So is AOC. |
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roloma
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Post by roloma on Oct 15, 2019 8:18:47 GMT -6
I'm not sure why Pete is coming for Liz and Beto right now, but I am not here to listen to it. I really liked him, but his pandering to the middle and playing moderate dem isn't winning him any favor in my book. He is coming across as Biden-light to me.
Nah, bro. We're good on white dudes playing the middle of the road.
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JukEboX
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Post by JukEboX on Oct 15, 2019 8:39:56 GMT -6
Did anyone else watch the #equalityinamerica event last night? I watched just about all of it and I just have to say, Dems and those in the community know how to react. Case in point a Transgender person of color got up to protest and bring to light the amount of people killed who are POC Transgender recently. Don Lemon not only calmed down the situation but also gave her the platform of which to state her case and plead for change. She was not rushed. She was not pushed out of the event. She was not arrested or asked to leave. Mr. Lemon did an amazing job to show professionalism as well as compassion and understanding. Beto also spoke to her point in support and was thoughtful and calm. This happened another time with some protesters while Mayer Pete and Anderson Cooper were on stage and they were heard and allowed to protest for a minute and then leave. This shows a STARK difference between the right and the left. While those who are arguing to be heard the left listens and accepts as well as supports those in conflict by lending an open ear and EMPATHIZING with them and then comes up with a plan to do what can be done. All the time, while this women was protesting, I was thinking that someone from the right was probably watching and using it as fuel to the fire on r/THe_donald or giving Fox News some sound bite to stoke ignorance or even some right wing person just saying to the TV, "This is why god hates you", or "you should be killed." It is sickening. All the candidates did a great job of supporting the community and had some great ideas on how to do that. Many were more well received than others and I didn't get a chance to see Castro or the businessman but I don't the businessman will make it to the debate after this one. Kamala Harris put it correctly during her section, "The fact that 2 men or women get married to each other and have a family, is not directly affecting your life. So why do you care?" Most of people's outrage is due to religious belief and in this country you can have it but you shouldn't be able to restrict someone because they don't believe the same as you believe. Joe Biden I think did a great job last night as he related to the audience and kept things light and honest and was absolutely right when he said that most Hetero people who are homophobic don't understand what the whole political situation is like in America. And those who aren't homophobic don't know what the laws state for Marriage or equality. They just don't know. And I agree with him. I have many family members who are homosexual and I can say I don't know everything about their rights and abilities. I know that they are surrounded by family and friends that support them as much as they need. And we all could be more knowledgeable about what they can and cannot do so that we can use that to make informed decisions on voting. All in all I think it was a wonderful thing we should do more often and the candidates did some an amazing job with listening and supporting the community. I think the right used it as a religious pivot point to demonize people. I think Fox News used it as a way to call people snowflakes and people in the LGBTQ community sinners. I think Trump will us it to rile up his religious base. And I think it shows that as the left takes the time to calmly and thoughtfully listen to a community in America that helps keep us diverse and unique to make them feel more equal, the right will be pigheaded and yell and scream and complain that these people don't belong in America and fly off the handle to resort to violence to remove something they don't understand. Even the woman she took the mic from stepped aside and was nodding along like “preach it”. It was nice to see that is was handled with the compassion and seriousness it needed to be. Because the protester was spot on. Sorry to be so far behind. I couldn't agree with you more. It's like the crazy people are leading the ship and not listening to the smart people because they crazy people are just mocking them for how smart they are and that they are saying to many words or are geeks or nerds. Know what I mean? |
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athn64
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Post by athn64 on Oct 15, 2019 8:51:24 GMT -6
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Oct 15, 2019 8:54:46 GMT -6
I'm not sure why Pete is coming for Liz and Beto right now, but I am not here to listen to it. I really liked him, but his pandering to the middle and playing moderate dem isn't winning him any favor in my book. He is coming across as Biden-light to me. Nah, bro. We're good on white dudes playing the middle of the road. It just doesn’t seem like a good strategy. He did the same thing with Medicare for all. I don’t really care if he’s all in for Medicare for all or not and his proposal isn’t terrible but the way he explained it was just very...safe. And not in a good way. It was like hedging to try and appeal to people who wouldn’t ever vote for him or any other dem. |
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Oct 15, 2019 9:15:11 GMT -6
This is funny though.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Oct 15, 2019 9:29:04 GMT -6
Its still just prettying it up.
Now I'm in favor of allllll the buybacks, however, the 2A crowd sees it very differently. And we HAVE to be able to see where they are coming from if we are going to talk them on to our side. Its part of being able to listen to the other side and come to an agreement. They see it as an infringement of their rights as law abiding citizens, government overreach, etc. We see it as a necessary step in creating a safer living nation.
I have not met too many middle of the road people on the issue of guns so my view may be skewed, there are 16 people in my office and 14 of them own a firearm or multiple firearms. And everyone of them would tell you to FRO if you came in and said the govt is making you turn any or all of them in regardless of compensation.
But why would a dem candidate be speaking in the terms used by the 2A crowd? Like they aren’t our base or even voting for any of them. I just don’t get what Pete is doing by attacking Beto’s buyback call. What’s the angle? I saw Beto speak a couple of months ago and he didn't couch his mandatory buybacks in terms of confiscation, he said that we have to "make them an offer they can't refuse." In other words, he knows that people pay $$$ for AR-15s and similar, and he knows that people only make that kind of investment if they really really like the firearm, so we can't insult them by saying, "Here, we're taking away your guns but we'll throw ya $300 for the inconvenience." I'll be honest, I don't love the way Beto's rhetoric has shifted. In a perfect world, I would LOVE to see no guns anywhere ever. I would LOVE for us to do what Australia and New Zealand have done. But I don't think that's practical, at least in the near term, and I think that extreme anti-gun rhetoric shuts down the conversation with a lot of voters and that's just not productive in terms of the broader movement toward gun violence prevention. The second amendment isn't going anywhere, what we have to do is work with gun owners who do support incremental reform that still respects the broader tenets of 2a. We have to work within the constitution to reform and reshape our laws. |
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Oct 15, 2019 9:32:12 GMT -6
I mean Pete can try to attract whatever type of voter he wants, but I don’t see most staunch 2A people voting for any dem candidate - Beto, Pete or any other. So to me, I’d rather a candidate that has bold proposals in the right direction than one try to speak the language or talking points of the “other side” that is never coming over to his or her side. Also, I don’t think confiscate is the correct word since under Beto’s proposal money would be given for the property. the real 2a nuts will never vote for a Democrat anyway. But we're a party of coalitions. And there are plenty of gun owners that want to retain their right to own or carry a firearm, but DO support stronger gun laws. Beto has spoken to them, quite publicly, at gun shows. So I do think it is worthwhile to say, "Hey, we can get some of these voters on our side but we can't scare the hell out of them." |
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Oct 15, 2019 9:34:28 GMT -6
Oh, I am in agreement that buy back is a much better term! Or maybe we need a completely new term! Definitely not confiscate. Maybe we can package it with Medicare. “Give is your assault rifle and we’ll give you Medicare.” It needs some marketing/slogan help but it might work. Lol. Did LOL |
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Oct 15, 2019 9:37:24 GMT -6
Personally, I don't think it's a dumb strategy for Pete to position himself as centrist. If Biden is (was) the frontrunner, and he is seen as more moderate than the other candidates leading in the polls, maybe Pete offers the "I'm like Biden but I'm not 1,000 years old."
It's not a strategy I find compelling, but I don't think it's the dumbest idea.
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sctiger
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Post by sctiger on Oct 15, 2019 9:43:35 GMT -6
I do like Beto but I feel that his recent rhetoric has put the nail in the coffin. I would love to get rid of all guns but I realize that is not realistic and I think his position is too extreme for most people.
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roloma
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Post by roloma on Oct 15, 2019 9:54:04 GMT -6
I need to put this somewhere and this is the only place I go. Plus, since we are discussing guns...
A local cookie maker in my area made a post on FB today with a picture of 9 realistic looking handgun cookies with the caption "Have you tried our cookies? If not, you should give thema "shot"!" with the winky face emoji. People are commenting that they love them, and they "look so realistic".
Are you fucking serious lady?!? I quickly unliked her and shot her a pretty straightforward angry PM. She replied back that the cookies were commissioned as 71 gun cookies as a thank you to local police for getting 71 guns off the street. Uhhhh...do you see how that actually doesn't make this better?? She then updated her post to clarify why the cookies were made and that she likes using puns. Holy shit lady, way to miss the point.
I just...
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Oct 15, 2019 10:15:53 GMT -6
I need to put this somewhere and this is the only place I go. Plus, since we are discussing guns... A local cookie maker in my area made a post on FB today with a picture of 9 realistic looking handgun cookies with the caption "Have you tried our cookies? If not, you should give thema "shot"!" with the winky face emoji. People are commenting that they love them, and they "look so realistic". Are you fucking serious lady?!? I quickly unliked her and shot her a pretty straightforward angry PM. She replied back that the cookies were commissioned as 71 gun cookies as a thank you to local police for getting 71 guns off the street. Uhhhh...do you see how that actually doesn't make this better?? She then updated her post to clarify why the cookies were made and that she likes using puns. Holy shit lady, way to miss the point. I just... that...sounds....contradictory? |
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roloma
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Post by roloma on Oct 15, 2019 10:24:37 GMT -6
I need to put this somewhere and this is the only place I go. Plus, since we are discussing guns... A local cookie maker in my area made a post on FB today with a picture of 9 realistic looking handgun cookies with the caption "Have you tried our cookies? If not, you should give thema "shot"!" with the winky face emoji. People are commenting that they love them, and they "look so realistic". Are you fucking serious lady?!? I quickly unliked her and shot her a pretty straightforward angry PM. She replied back that the cookies were commissioned as 71 gun cookies as a thank you to local police for getting 71 guns off the street. Uhhhh...do you see how that actually doesn't make this better?? She then updated her post to clarify why the cookies were made and that she likes using puns. Holy shit lady, way to miss the point. I just... that...sounds....contradictory? I wish I could say I was surprised but nothing surprises me anymore. Literally ANYTHING would have been better than gun cookies as a thank you. And the gun joke, my gosh. Some days I really don't want to exist in this reality any longer. |
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Post by greykitty on Oct 15, 2019 10:27:19 GMT -6
I just wish Mayor Pete was maybe 10 years older - but, yeah, I think there are a lot more centrists and pragmatists out there than some may think. I'm getting the impression in my town that there are a lot of voters who are really looking for a 'reasonable' candidate so they can vote and not sit out 2020 - but they're not ready to just vote for anyone who's not Trump. Warren may have to start moving to center to attract wider voter support. I'm not keen on her being in lockstep with Bernie on a lot of plans myself. But, if she does that, will the engaged progressive voters turn on her? Or will they sit out 2020 as well?
Honestly, if I could pick a candidate for the Republicans, I'd be looking hard at Mitt. I think he could pull the statesman and experience perceptions off pretty well.
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roloma
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Post by roloma on Oct 15, 2019 10:28:01 GMT -6
Personally, I don't think it's a dumb strategy for Pete to position himself as centrist. If Biden is (was) the frontrunner, and he is seen as more moderate than the other candidates leading in the polls, maybe Pete offers the "I'm like Biden but I'm not 1,000 years old." It's not a strategy I find compelling, but I don't think it's the dumbest idea. I'm right here with you. A fine strategy to be the younger moderate with a few upgrades. Just not a strategy I am into. |
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Oct 15, 2019 10:29:29 GMT -6
I just wish Mayor Pete was maybe 10 years older - but, yeah, I think there are a lot more centrists and pragmatists out there than some may think. I'm getting the impression in my town that there are a lot of voters who are really looking for a 'reasonable' candidate so they can vote and not sit out 2020 - but they're not ready to just vote for anyone who's not Trump. Warren may have to start moving to center to attract wider voter support. I'm not keen on her being in lockstep with Bernie on a lot of plans myself. But, if she does that, will the engaged progressive voters turn on her? Or will they sit out 2020 as well? Honestly, if I could pick a candidate for the Republicans, I'd be looking hard at Mitt. I think he could pull the statesman and experience perceptions off pretty well. this is what concerns me. I just don't know which group is more likely to sit out the election if they don't share every ounce of ideology with the nominee. |
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Oct 15, 2019 10:31:41 GMT -6
Personally, I don't think it's a dumb strategy for Pete to position himself as centrist. If Biden is (was) the frontrunner, and he is seen as more moderate than the other candidates leading in the polls, maybe Pete offers the "I'm like Biden but I'm not 1,000 years old." It's not a strategy I find compelling, but I don't think it's the dumbest idea. He started out as the young center candidate.
Which is fine, if he stuck to his policy differences instead of his snipes. I think if he could frame his policies without digging at the other candidates, I'd be more comfortable. But the one liners hes been spitting out are just somehow offputting.
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Post by greykitty on Oct 15, 2019 10:34:35 GMT -6
I just wish Mayor Pete was maybe 10 years older - but, yeah, I think there are a lot more centrists and pragmatists out there than some may think. I'm getting the impression in my town that there are a lot of voters who are really looking for a 'reasonable' candidate so they can vote and not sit out 2020 - but they're not ready to just vote for anyone who's not Trump. Warren may have to start moving to center to attract wider voter support. I'm not keen on her being in lockstep with Bernie on a lot of plans myself. But, if she does that, will the engaged progressive voters turn on her? Or will they sit out 2020 as well? Honestly, if I could pick a candidate for the Republicans, I'd be looking hard at Mitt. I think he could pull the statesman and experience perceptions off pretty well. this is what concerns me. I just don't know which group is more likely to sit out the election if they don't share every ounce of ideology with the nominee. Honestly - to me it's the true believers on the left. Purity at any cost seems to be far more our watchword than those in the middle or the right. At least at the primary level. |
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elle
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Post by elle on Oct 15, 2019 10:35:40 GMT -6
I just wish Mayor Pete was maybe 10 years older - but, yeah, I think there are a lot more centrists and pragmatists out there than some may think. I'm getting the impression in my town that there are a lot of voters who are really looking for a 'reasonable' candidate so they can vote and not sit out 2020 - but they're not ready to just vote for anyone who's not Trump. Warren may have to start moving to center to attract wider voter support. I'm not keen on her being in lockstep with Bernie on a lot of plans myself. But, if she does that, will the engaged progressive voters turn on her? Or will they sit out 2020 as well? Honestly, if I could pick a candidate for the Republicans, I'd be looking hard at Mitt. I think he could pull the statesman and experience perceptions off pretty well. this is what concerns me. I just don't know which group is more likely to sit out the election if they don't share every ounce of ideology with the nominee. This doesn't just concern me, it pisses me off. How can people think that sitting by and letting this shitshow continue is in any way ok? People need to take some fucking responsibility and do the right thing, even if it means not getting exactly what you (they) want. |
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elle
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Post by elle on Oct 15, 2019 10:37:19 GMT -6
this is what concerns me. I just don't know which group is more likely to sit out the election if they don't share every ounce of ideology with the nominee. Honestly - to me it's the true believers on the left. Purity at any cost seems to be far more our watchword than those in the middle or the right. At least at the primary level. I agree, I think there are more people on one end of the spectrum or another who become married to the particular ideas or even candidate and won't consider anyone else. I hate those people a lot. Sorry, I had three hours of sleep last night and I am fired up today. |
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Post by dc2london on Oct 15, 2019 10:37:55 GMT -6
this is what concerns me. I just don't know which group is more likely to sit out the election if they don't share every ounce of ideology with the nominee. This doesn't just concern me, it pisses me off. How can people think that sitting by and letting this shitshow continue is in any way ok? People need to take some fucking responsibility and do the right thing, even if it means not getting exactly what you (they) want. It's the worst kind of privilege. |
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blurnette989
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Post by blurnette989 on Oct 15, 2019 10:41:28 GMT -6
All my super lefty Berner friends have also said positive things about Liz Warren too. They are def voting for Bernie in the primary, but that is the space to choose your ideal. They've all consistently expressed though that they understand the need to oust Trump.
#hagfish2020
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