lucylou
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Post by lucylou on Apr 13, 2021 15:01:29 GMT -6
I’ll preface by saying DS is 6 and has some SN. Language disorder, that he’s semi-caught up with now (but still receives services), developmental delay, anxiety, ocd tendencies, and I’m 99% positive adhd. He is in Kindergarten and has an IEP. So, I’ve always been a little easier on him than I probably would be a typical child. Or, I try to cut him some slack, pick my battles, etc. He has done pretty well this year. He’s gotten clipped down a couple of times for not following directions. When I’ve talked to him, he would say things like “my brain feels too crazy.” Or “I didn’t know what I was supposed to do.” And I’ve given him the benefit of the doubt. After Christmas break, it happened a few times but then he settled back into things. Now that we are back from spring break (2 weeks) it has happened 3 times. Our standard punishment is that if he gets in trouble at school, he is grounded from tv/tablet for the night, which seems to be his currency. But he is becoming more defiant at home too. And today, he got clipped down for coloring on the desk with crayons! He knows better. This is the first time he’s been in trouble for truly naughty behavior. He’s obviously grounded from tablet. I’m going to have him write his teacher an apology letter. What else?
How do you all punish your kids of similar age? I used to be all about natural consequences but now that things are happening at school, I don’t really know what to do. My mom was a shit parent to me. I don’t have aunts/uncles. Like, I need someone teach me how to parent like a normal person. And his special needs make it even harder to navigate. But his bad behavior is rubbing off on his younger (neurotypical) brother. Something needs to change. He has never taken “no” for an answer without some huge meltdown. I pick my battles but once I’ve drawn a line, I stick to it. Lately he’s just been more defiant, rude, no respect etc. What works in your house?
Tl;dr: my 6 year old is acting worse than usual. What punishments/consequences have worked for you?
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Post by sheilathetank on Apr 13, 2021 15:06:08 GMT -6
What does "clipped down" mean in this situation? What other behaviors was he clipped down for?
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pobre
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Post by pobre on Apr 13, 2021 15:11:11 GMT -6
I’ve found the very well website has some really good resources on how to phrase things so they don’t trigger meltdowns. Let me see if I can find it. They also have great stuff on parenting defiant kids, kids with ADHD, etc.
If you can be more specific I might have more advice.
Do you have a positive reinforcement or reward system in place?
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Post by sudokufan on Apr 13, 2021 15:11:45 GMT -6
DS is 8, for worst offenses he loses all tech, so no tablet but also no TV. Sometimes for more than one day.
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trueblue
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Post by trueblue on Apr 13, 2021 15:14:34 GMT -6
TBH, since ADHD is already floating around, I would go ahead and ask your pediatrician to prepare the Vanderbilt forms for you and his teacher to fill out. I see a lot of similarities in what your son is saying/inability to control impulses that we let go for far too long thinking it would just get better. It did not.
Based on the feedback your pediatrician gets from the forms you can decide on the next step.
eta: In terms of parenting we use consequences and rewards. Our consequences depend on severity obviously but range from loss of electronics, earlier bed times (in 10-15 minute chunks so the kid has time to get himself right, warnings are given, etc.), loss of play time with friends, loss of activities. Rewards are an extra few minutes at bedtime to play/talk with us/whatever; activities; a favorite food/dessert (used sparingly, not in a here’s a cookie kind of way but we can have your favorite dinner tonight because you did a great job); more screentime; a matchbox car; etc. we try to keep them non-monetary. We also set a goal for the week with a big reward - ice cream, etc.
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iqeb
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Post by iqeb on Apr 13, 2021 15:17:45 GMT -6
I have a (homeschooling) kindergartner who would be described I think as a pretty easy kid and I can easily imagine circumstances that could lead to her depositing a bit of crayon on a desk. I'm more scandalized by the behavior chart because the school should know better. Have you read any of Ross Greene's stuff?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2021 15:18:27 GMT -6
TBH, since ADHD is already floating around, I would go ahead and ask your pediatrician to prepare the Vanderbilt forms for you and his teacher to fill out. I see a lot of similarities in what your son is saying/inability to control impulses that we let go for far too long thinking it would just get better. It did not. Based on the feedback your pediatrician gets from the forms you can decide on the next step. Yeah, I don't have much to say regarding discipline but ADHD comes with lack of impulse control and if that is being considered I think you should explore it sooner than later. DH was the "bad" kid in elementary school and as an adult now he thinks it was due to poor management of his ADHD as a child.
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claudia
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Post by claudia on Apr 13, 2021 15:28:01 GMT -6
I have a similar 6 year old. Overall, for offenses are school (unless it’s a pattern or something major), I let the school consequence be the only consequence. I wouldn’t dwell on it at home. More of a “let’s try better tomorrow.” Dwelling on it tends to make mine anxious which then ramps up the behavior.
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Post by theseaword on Apr 13, 2021 15:28:18 GMT -6
I’ve typed and deleted. This sounds a lot like DS1 who was diagnosed adhd in first grade, right down to the daily clip down nightmare. I don’t really have parenting advice. I used to punish him for clip downs, but it didn’t get us anywhere. What did was a tailored 504 plan, an understanding teacher, and the right medication. He did so well in second (until covid ended things) that they stopped the 504 and we just checked in with the school OT on occasion. I hope you find what works best for your son. I know how stressful it is.
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lucylou
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Post by lucylou on Apr 13, 2021 15:55:24 GMT -6
What does "clipped down" mean in this situation? What other behaviors was he clipped down for? That would help- every kid in class has a clip chart. They all start the day on green and there are 2 colors above and below that they can get clipped up, for good behavior, and down for bad. It is fluid throughout the day and then they color in a take home paper so the parent knows what they finished the day on. When he gets clipped down, I’ve always gotten an email from the teacher as well. The other behaviors have been like, not following directions. Like, she tells him to do one work page before another, she leaves his side, comes back and he’s working on a different one. She’s prompts again, repeat. In cases like that, I’ve questioned that maybe he didn’t understand how to do the sheet he was supposed to do he goes with what he knows/feels comfortable with. Now I’m not so sure.
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lucylou
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Post by lucylou on Apr 13, 2021 15:59:54 GMT -6
I’ve found the very well website has some really good resources on how to phrase things so they don’t trigger meltdowns. Let me see if I can find it. They also have great stuff on parenting defiant kids, kids with ADHD, etc. If you can be more specific I might have more advice. Do you have a positive reinforcement or reward system in place? Ill check it out. Thank you. After Christmas break, when he was having more trouble, I met with his teacher and the special Ed advisor and they implemented a separate positive reward chart for him, after I mentioned he had gotten so upset after clipping down. It worked for awhile and then the novelty seemed to wear off and the teacher just reached out after yesterday’s clip-down saying they wanted to put him back on the standard clip down chart since things have seemed worse since switching
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Yogurt
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Post by Yogurt on Apr 13, 2021 16:03:05 GMT -6
Fuck a clip chart. Just because I ended somewhere does not paint a picture of my whole day. And if it's public shaming....ooh boy do I hate that.
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Yogurt
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Post by Yogurt on Apr 13, 2021 16:06:37 GMT -6
Does he have behavior or social goals on his iep? Eta, or on the present levels section were behavior skills/deficits described?
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lucylou
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Post by lucylou on Apr 13, 2021 16:09:40 GMT -6
I have a (homeschooling) kindergartner who would be described I think as a pretty easy kid and I can easily imagine circumstances that could lead to her depositing a bit of crayon on a desk. I'm more scandalized by the behavior chart because the school should know better. Have you read any of Ross Greene's stuff? It wasn’t like he got outside the lines. It was like, he colored on it a lot on purpose. No, I have not heard of him..
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Post by sheilathetank on Apr 13, 2021 16:42:57 GMT -6
What does "clipped down" mean in this situation? What other behaviors was he clipped down for? That would help- every kid in class has a clip chart. They all start the day on green and there are 2 colors above and below that they can get clipped up, for good behavior, and down for bad. It is fluid throughout the day and then they color in a take home paper so the parent knows what they finished the day on. When he gets clipped down, I’ve always gotten an email from the teacher as well. The other behaviors have been like, not following directions. Like, she tells him to do one work page before another, she leaves his side, comes back and he’s working on a different one. She’s prompts again, repeat. In cases like that, I’ve questioned that maybe he didn’t understand how to do the sheet he was supposed to do he goes with what he knows/feels comfortable with. Now I’m not so sure. This seems like an awful system that sets someone with any sort of behavioral issue up for failure. And if the teacher is using it and he is still displaying the behavior than obviously it's not working. I would roll my eyes with the whole works on a different worksheet that was assigned thing. So. He's doing the work at least who cares what order it is in? If it's a problem then don't give him multiple sheets at a time? 🤷♀️ I don't punish for school stuff and let her teacher handle it at that moment. Punishing after the fact does nothing but create more problems at home. What does the teacher suggest other than a behavior chart that doesn't work?
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Yogurt
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Post by Yogurt on Apr 13, 2021 16:51:55 GMT -6
Unless he truly feels sorry and wants to write the apology, what's the point? An insincere forced apology isn't meaningful to the recipient...is it?
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Yogurt
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Post by Yogurt on Apr 13, 2021 16:52:33 GMT -6
He has a sped case manager besides his gen ed teacher, yes?
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rvasc
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Post by rvasc on Apr 13, 2021 16:53:33 GMT -6
That would help- every kid in class has a clip chart. They all start the day on green and there are 2 colors above and below that they can get clipped up, for good behavior, and down for bad. It is fluid throughout the day and then they color in a take home paper so the parent knows what they finished the day on. When he gets clipped down, I’ve always gotten an email from the teacher as well. The other behaviors have been like, not following directions. Like, she tells him to do one work page before another, she leaves his side, comes back and he’s working on a different one. She’s prompts again, repeat. In cases like that, I’ve questioned that maybe he didn’t understand how to do the sheet he was supposed to do he goes with what he knows/feels comfortable with. Now I’m not so sure. This seems like an awful system that sets someone with any sort of behavioral issue up for failure. And if the teacher is using it and he is still displaying the behavior than obviously it's not working. I would roll my eyes with the whole works on a different worksheet that was assigned thing. So. He's doing the work at least who cares what order it is in? If it's a problem then don't give him multiple sheets at a time? 🤷♀️ I don't punish for school stuff and let her teacher handle it at that moment. Punishing after the fact does nothing but create more problems at home. What does the teacher suggest other than a behavior chart that doesn't work? Clip charts are maybe Pinterest’s worst offense. It’s like teachers forgot about their developmental education when they saw rainbow colors.
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tookie
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Post by tookie on Apr 13, 2021 16:58:44 GMT -6
I have a similar 6 year old. Overall, for offenses are school (unless it’s a pattern or something major), I let the school consequence be the only consequence. I wouldn’t dwell on it at home. More of a “let’s try better tomorrow.” Dwelling on it tends to make mine anxious which then ramps up the behavior. that’s how I operate. I personally wouldn’t punish further 🤷🏽♀️
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AmyG
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Post by AmyG on Apr 13, 2021 16:58:48 GMT -6
Put different behavior plan in iep or 504 plan. Reinforcing positives instead of focus on negatives.
If punished at school home we talk thru it and role play what to do different in that situation in tge future. Talk natural consequences that may carry over to home, like if you didnt do your work at school you now have to do it at home, but not specificslly continuing any punishments at home, different locations equala different expectations and consequences. At home coloring on desk he would then be required to clean it off.
Add in explaining why things are wrong, like desk doesnt belong to you, it makes desk not smooth for writing, next kid that uses desk will see it all messed up, coloring on paper is the rules, then yiu can display the paper at home or school, coloring on desk wastes crayons blah blah. Have him explain why he did it or try Have him work thru what to do different next time, esp in regards to thingd like doing the school worksheets in the wronf order.
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kayc
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Post by kayc on Apr 13, 2021 16:59:00 GMT -6
Fuck clip charts. The best thing our school did was ditch those. For me as a teacher-unless a child is disrespectful, constantly disrupting class and/or putting kids in danger, I deal with it in school. To me, a kindergartner coloring on a desk once wouldn’t phase me. I’d give the child proper cleaning supplies and they’d have to do their best to clean it before moving on to the next activity. No attention for it, just matter of fact consequence-you made a mess, you clean it up!
The teacher should be adjusting things to help him be successful. I had a first grade student that sounds a lot like your son. I’d give him one worksheet at a time if he keeps doing the wrong one...problem solved.
At his age, address it in the moment, remove from situation if necessary (like, if he’s out of control at home, not listening, calmly have him sit in a designated space and tell him you’ll talk when he’s calm)....as hard as it is, show little reaction and just give the consequence. “You threw your Legos all over. That isn’t safe. Please clean them up, then Legos are done for the day.”
Of course he might not clean up right away, but again, stay calm and repeat consequence.
Disclaimer-I am not a parent! However, I have taught pre-K-2nd graders for 15 years, so I have experience in a school setting, I know home can be different. On days he clipped down, I would just ask him about it, remind him to listen to his teacher, and that’s it-unless he injures someone or does something serious, then there’s more to deal with.
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lucylou
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Post by lucylou on Apr 13, 2021 17:00:13 GMT -6
Is it possible that he feels like there’s no point in trying to be better at home after a clip-down day because he’s already lost his currency? This was an issue with a family I nannied for where the children had ASD and ADHD. ETA: I’m trying to politely word why I think the apology letter is a bad idea, but I’m struggling. I think he might not need to dwell on it? That is a really good point. And he is the type to just shut down so this is very relevant to him. I just feel like he can’t ruin someone’s property and not have a meaningful consequence. And he also does better when expectations are laid out vs deciding on a punishment after the fact, so that why I’ve made it a blanket rule. But you bring up an excellent point and I’m going to have to put some thought into that.
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lucylou
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Post by lucylou on Apr 13, 2021 17:02:53 GMT -6
Does he have behavior or social goals on his iep? Eta, or on the present levels section were behavior skills/deficits described? He has a social goal to have back and forth interactions with peers, which he’s been improving on.
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Post by flippinchica on Apr 13, 2021 17:04:38 GMT -6
That would help- every kid in class has a clip chart. They all start the day on green and there are 2 colors above and below that they can get clipped up, for good behavior, and down for bad. It is fluid throughout the day and then they color in a take home paper so the parent knows what they finished the day on. When he gets clipped down, I’ve always gotten an email from the teacher as well. The other behaviors have been like, not following directions. Like, she tells him to do one work page before another, she leaves his side, comes back and he’s working on a different one. She’s prompts again, repeat. In cases like that, I’ve questioned that maybe he didn’t understand how to do the sheet he was supposed to do he goes with what he knows/feels comfortable with. Now I’m not so sure. This seems like an awful system that sets someone with any sort of behavioral issue up for failure. And if the teacher is using it and he is still displaying the behavior than obviously it's not working. I would roll my eyes with the whole works on a different worksheet that was assigned thing. So. He's doing the work at least who cares what order it is in? If it's a problem then don't give him multiple sheets at a time? 🤷♀️ I don't punish for school stuff and let her teacher handle it at that moment. Punishing after the fact does nothing but create more problems at home. What does the teacher suggest other than a behavior chart that doesn't work? This is where I land. I would lead with curiosity, not punishment or anger. Why did he do that? Was he upset about something? They aren't giving you a hard time, they are having a hard time.
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Post by sheilathetank on Apr 13, 2021 17:07:02 GMT -6
Is it possible that he feels like there’s no point in trying to be better at home after a clip-down day because he’s already lost his currency? This was an issue with a family I nannied for where the children had ASD and ADHD. ETA: I’m trying to politely word why I think the apology letter is a bad idea, but I’m struggling. I think he might not need to dwell on it? That is a really good point. And he is the type to just shut down so this is very relevant to him. I just feel like he can’t ruin someone’s property and not have a meaningful consequence. And he also does better when expectations are laid out vs deciding on a punishment after the fact, so that why I’ve made it a blanket rule. But you bring up an excellent point and I’m going to have to put some thought into that. I think in the specific issue of the crayons the punishment should fit the crime. He should have to clean up the crayons marks on the desk, no matter how long it takes and he's not allowed to have crayons for x amount of time.
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Yogurt
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Post by Yogurt on Apr 13, 2021 17:09:37 GMT -6
Does he have behavior or social goals on his iep? Eta, or on the present levels section were behavior skills/deficits described? He has a social goal to have back and forth interactions with peers, which he’s been improving on. If any skill deficits are identified on his present levels in social/emotional/behavior, that would drive a goal, which would in turn drive a service. And a goal without a plan is just a wish, so he would need proactive teaching in any identified deficit areas (compliance, attending, whatever he may need more support and skill building). This would be paired with a positive reinforcement system for him demonstrating clearly operationally defined target behaviors. Its important to think about if its a skill or a will deficit. You can't motivate a kid to do something they don't understand how to do, what it is/isn't.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2021 17:11:03 GMT -6
Consequences are different than punishment though. Consequences of coloring on the desk would be he had to have a conversation with you about what happened and how we can prevent that in the future. Or a natural consequence may be he has to sit at a different desk away from his friends because the one he colored on is being cleaned. Examples
I think consequences rather than punishment may be the key for you guys.
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Minerva
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Post by Minerva on Apr 13, 2021 17:23:51 GMT -6
Fuck a clip chart. Just because I ended somewhere does not paint a picture of my whole day. And if it's public shaming....ooh boy do I hate that. Yes, especially for a kid with ADHD or other developmental delays that affect executive functioning. OP, if you think your DS may have ADHD, I would start pursuing a diagnosis now and meet with a child psych to discuss appropriate parenting approaches. Understanding his diagnoses should definitely inform how you dish out consequences for his behaviors. I’m going to try to say this nicely - if your child has ADHD, he has an executive functioning disability that very literally makes it difficult for him to avoid impulsive behaviors and follow directions. He needs extra support to develop his executive functioning skills. He may need meds to avoid making impulsive decisions. Frequent tangential punishments from you hours after the incident are likely to be counterproductive, leading to defiance and low self-esteem. One textbook symptom of ADHD is rejection sensitivity, meaning that people with ADHD often internalize rejection and criticism beyond what is typical in most people. It makes it doubly important that you choose your consequences with care when you are parenting a kid with ADHD. Do you think your kid feels like you are on his team? He needs your support. He may need accommodations in school to help him succeed so that school is a positive place to learn. Punishing him for behaviors related to a disability without giving him the support he needs is not going to end well for anyone involved. That doesn’t mean no consequences, but it does mean appropriate consequences accompanied by additional support.
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lucylou
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Post by lucylou on Apr 13, 2021 17:32:48 GMT -6
That would help- every kid in class has a clip chart. They all start the day on green and there are 2 colors above and below that they can get clipped up, for good behavior, and down for bad. It is fluid throughout the day and then they color in a take home paper so the parent knows what they finished the day on. When he gets clipped down, I’ve always gotten an email from the teacher as well. The other behaviors have been like, not following directions. Like, she tells him to do one work page before another, she leaves his side, comes back and he’s working on a different one. She’s prompts again, repeat. In cases like that, I’ve questioned that maybe he didn’t understand how to do the sheet he was supposed to do he goes with what he knows/feels comfortable with. Now I’m not so sure. This seems like an awful system that sets someone with any sort of behavioral issue up for failure. And if the teacher is using it and he is still displaying the behavior than obviously it's not working. I would roll my eyes with the whole works on a different worksheet that was assigned thing. So. He's doing the work at least who cares what order it is in? If it's a problem then don't give him multiple sheets at a time? 🤷♀️ I don't punish for school stuff and let her teacher handle it at that moment. Punishing after the fact does nothing but create more problems at home. What does the teacher suggest other than a behavior chart that doesn't work? I appreciate this. I guess I’ve been feeling like I’ve been too easy on him and letting him get away with too much but reading all this feedback is making me feel better. There was the chart that was more about positive reinforcement that she just discontinued yesterday. I think she was hoping going back to the old system would get him back on track and then today with the desk happened.
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Post by sheilathetank on Apr 13, 2021 17:41:04 GMT -6
This seems like an awful system that sets someone with any sort of behavioral issue up for failure. And if the teacher is using it and he is still displaying the behavior than obviously it's not working. I would roll my eyes with the whole works on a different worksheet that was assigned thing. So. He's doing the work at least who cares what order it is in? If it's a problem then don't give him multiple sheets at a time? 🤷♀️ I don't punish for school stuff and let her teacher handle it at that moment. Punishing after the fact does nothing but create more problems at home. What does the teacher suggest other than a behavior chart that doesn't work? I appreciate this. I guess I’ve been feeling like I’ve been too easy on him and letting him get away with too much but reading all this feedback is making me feel better. There was the chart that was more about positive reinforcement that she just discontinued yesterday. I think she was hoping going back to the old system would get him back on track and then today with the desk happened. Some kids don't do well with charts. Mine doesn't. She gets bored a lot so the school gives her extra work, pulled her for early reading (she's 5 and still in preschool until the fall) and they've taught her how to knit so it's she's bored or fidgety she can do that. Can he have a fidget toy to play with instead of coloring his desk?
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