Politics Book Club: Jesus & John Wayne DISCUSSION

[ktg]

I'm shooting for reading about three chapters a week, and I included the intro as a chapter, so this is for discussions of the Intro through Chapter Two.

Jump in!

[ktg]

I am both infuriated and feeling vindicated just by the Intro. I never knew how purposeful the Tough Guy Christian thing was in the forming of evangelical beliefs.

The timing all makes sense for why Boomers are leading this charge, too - if one was born in the '40s and '50s, the evangelical theology and influence is nearly all they know. It IS Christianity. Militant Patriarchy and Christian Nationalism is the only way to faith, essentially.

I am especially infuriated by the 1942 opening speech of the National Association of Evangelicals highlighting that the "lone wolves" of the faith should join the pack, and learn from the Soviets and Nazis how to stick together.

I mean. The misogyny and racism is just built right in from the jump.

I just finished Chapter 2 so I'll have more to say but I wanted to get started.

[athn64]

Feb 3, 2021 7:27:35 GMT -6 ktg said:

I am both infuriated and feeling vindicated just by the Intro. I never knew how purposeful the Tough Guy Christian thing was in the forming of evangelical beliefs.

The timing all makes sense for why Boomers are leading this charge, too - if one was born in the '40s and '50s, the evangelical theology and influence is nearly all they know. It IS Christianity. Militant Patriarchy and Christian Nationalism is the only way to faith, essentially.

I am especially infuriated by the 1942 opening speech of the National Association of Evangelicals highlighting that the "lone wolves" of the faith should join the pack, and learn from the Soviets and Nazis how to stick together.

I mean. The misogyny and racism is just built right in from the jump.

I just finished Chapter 2 so I'll have more to say but I wanted to get started.

It definitely makes sense. I used to identify as evangelical, based on the acutal tennets of the faith, but no longer feel comfortable doing so. I hadn't ever thought of how the commercialized culture of all the books and evrything was corrupting things. 

I've just finished the intro so I have more reading to do. But it was definitely an interesting read so far.

[sctiger]

I have the book coming in a couple of days. Looking forward to joining the discussion soon!

[Dr. Cox]

My mind was blown because it made so much sense. I grew up in a southern extreme evangelical church, and the description of the masculine manly man being the epitome of godly was such a revelation. The crass, tough, hyper masculine Jesus, lacking in manners and decency, replacing the kind, compassionate, and charismatic Jesus of the New Testament is so very true. I enjoyed the timeline breakdown of the switch.

[Dr. Cox]

I am dealing with some religious trauma from growing up evangelical as well as trying to figure out my spirituality and I’ve so far found this book both validating and enlightening.

[summerbabe]

I finished Chapter 11 this morning. It's a great, enlightening read so far, and it definitely answers the questions I have had re: how certain Christian groups embraced Trump as a candidate.

[athn64]

Feb 3, 2021 13:41:00 GMT -6 Dr. Cox said:

My mind was blown because it made so much sense. I grew up in a southern extreme evangelical church, and the description of the masculine manly man being the epitome of godly was such a revelation. The crass, tough, hyper masculine Jesus, lacking in manners and decency, replacing the kind, compassionate, and charismatic Jesus of the New Testament is so very true. I enjoyed the timeline breakdown of the switch.

It's so weird to me. Because i grew up in an E-free church and it was very much focused on love and peace.

[ktg]

Feb 3, 2021 13:42:18 GMT -6 Dr. Cox said:

I am dealing with some religious trauma from growing up evangelical as well as trying to figure out my spirituality and I’ve so far found this book both validating and enlightening.

For real. I am only recently coming to terms with how negatively I was affected by my religious past.

[athn64]

Reading about Graham makes my blood boil. I've never been a fan of his and thought of his monetizing of faith to be contrary to every Christian Dogma. I never realized how much influence he had in getting Eisenhower elected.

[sctiger]

I just finished chapter 2. For some background, I grew up Presbyterian and we now go to a traditional Episcopal Church. I never experienced evangelical culture growing up but was exposed to it here and there as a teenager and in my early 20s. I never had experience with purity culture and hyper masculinity and things like that. Over the last few years I've learned more about how harmful part of the church can be.

The second chapter really blew me away because Trump brings up so many images of John Wayne. He's crass, uncultured, insults liberals, etc. The images of violence were especially striking when thinking about the Capitol attack. I never really realized how much violence and has been a part of Evangelical culture and emphasizing masculinity and how the women are trained to go along. The attack on the Capitol seems like a natural consequence of what had been building over the last several decades. Evangelicals have also been trained to see themselves as victims and Trump was a way for them to gain power. It didn't matter how crass Trump is, they know to look for powerful figures to spread their beliefs and put them into law and protect them against the evil, non Christian world they've been taught to fear.

[athn64]

Reviving the old thread because I was just thinking about how I previously had NO IDEA that Billy Graham was such a driving force in switching conservatives from Dems to GOP.

I've always disliked Graham, but now I hate him more.

[leahcar]

I have read a lot since I couldn’t do much else without power. I grew up in a hyper evangelical area and this all rings SO TRUE.

And seeing how racist it was from day #1 is shocking.

[athn64]

Feb 18, 2021 18:10:00 GMT -6 leahcar said:

I have read a lot since I couldn’t do much else without power. I grew up in a hyper evangelical area and this all rings SO TRUE.

And seeing how racist it was from day #1 is shocking.

I recognize a lot of the players from hearing about them in church. It's quite eerie. The complete 180 they managed to pull on certain issues is so calculated and diabolical. 

Like how can someone read about turn the other cheek and decide we should be more militarized.

[ktg]

I'll put up another thread soon - I got distracted. Plus I can't read this book at night (my optimal reading time) because it makes me so mad I can't sleep.

THESE MOTHERFUCKERS, you know?

[sctiger]

I'm on chapter 12 and have read a lot this weekend! It is helping me make sense of why conservatives around me think and act the way they do. I mean, I still think they are bigoted assholes, but now I know why. There is this entire network of religious organizations funneling propaganda to churches who spew this crap to their members, along with the emphasis on influencing politicians.

[ktg]

I'll just add stuff here.

For instance, if you're into podcasts and want to know more about the Iran-Contra mess, listen to You're Wrong About. I have always heard that phrase and had no idea what it meant at all.

[athn64]

I just started chapter 8. I'm going to back up to the chapter on Women. I did not realize that the "Women belong in the House" was a slogan from a conservative Republican woman.

Also from that chapter, I was blown away by the way women centered and spread the misogyny with the man being the head. And how it basically created the argument for Rape culture we see now, in that men need sex and it's the wife's job to supply it for him or he will find it elsewhere.

Honestly, a lot of it made me look back at my own formative years in the church. I heard a lot of the same teachings and it really screwed me up for a long time.

[ktg]

athn64 that is exactly why I can't read it before bed. My past religious life was so much right-wing garbage. I honestly just see it as American Christianity.

[athn64]

Feb 22, 2021 20:58:12 GMT -6 ktg said:

athn64 that is exactly why I can't read it before bed. My past religious life was so much right-wing garbage. I honestly just see it as American Christianity.

I get it. I get such a reaction when I see certain things, or specific names, come up. It's certainly very enlightening though.

[sctiger]

Feb 22, 2021 20:58:12 GMT -6 ktg said:

athn64 that is exactly why I can't read it before bed. My past religious life was so much right-wing garbage. I honestly just see it as American Christianity.

White Republican Jesus!

[athn64]

Feb 23, 2021 9:58:51 GMT -6 sctiger said:

Feb 22, 2021 20:58:12 GMT -6 ktg said:

athn64 that is exactly why I can't read it before bed. My past religious life was so much right-wing garbage. I honestly just see it as American Christianity.

White Republican Jesus!

My Lenten Devotional said this in last night's reading and it very much made me think of the rebranding of Christ that is being shared in the book: 

"Jesus failed to fulfill the "Conquering Warrior Hero" concept or to deliver the political freedom they sought ... Today, like those earlier followers, we still tend to reinvent the character and picture of the God we worship, so the image fits more tidily with the values and priorities that define the culture in which we are comfortable."

[ktg]

I just finished chapter 9 - I had been wondering when Purity Culture would pop up. The thru-line of redefining masculinity to men's uncontrollable sex drive is not one I had seen, having grown up in the height of Purity Culture.

Purity Culture makes me want to scream. The evidence that it sprang in part from a fake ideal "Christian masculinity" is justification of my wrath. But also that fact that apparently adults just forget that teenagers are sexual?

Here's my big scary feminist talking point: teenagers being interested in sex is normal and healthy. Equip them with knowledge and tools to explore their sexuality safely at their own pace.

Joshua Harris, who wrote I Kissed Dating Goodbye, has reconsidered his work and asked that his "purity" books no longer be published. An interesting turn, two decades later.
joshharris.com/statement/

[athn64]

Feb 28, 2021 7:03:04 GMT -6 ktg said:

I just finished chapter 9 - I had been wondering when Purity Culture would pop up. The thru-line of redefining masculinity to men's uncontrollable sex drive is not one I had seen, having grown up in the height of Purity Culture.

Purity Culture makes me want to scream. The evidence that it sprang in part from a fake ideal "Christian masculinity" is justification of my wrath. But also that fact that apparently adults just forget that teenagers are sexual?

Here's my big scary feminist talking point: teenagers being interested in sex is normal and healthy. Equip them with knowledge and tools to explore their sexuality safely at their own pace.

Joshua Harris, who wrote I Kissed Dating Goodbye, has reconsidered his work and asked that his "purity" books no longer be published. An interesting turn, two decades later.
joshharris.com/statement/

It's interesting that they show how boys and girls are given different messages in the purity dynamic. Girls learn it's about modesty and chastity and being demure. Boys learn that if they wait, their wife is will give them all the sex.

I never realized the dynamic changed for the different genders. They always split us up when discussing sex topics when I was at youth events.

My parents never pushed anything on me, and I never signed any contracts or anything, but it was definitely ingrained in me.

The whole courtship thing is ridiculous to me. The only girl I know who wasn't allowed to date and had to be courted ended up pregnant at 16. So it obviously wasn't working for them.

[athn64]

The thought that boys need an "initiation rite" with their dads to become men was so eye-rolly to me. White male Americans have never had a standard "rite" such as described in the book. In fact, the things they described I believe to be more common place in Indigenous cultures here in the US.

[overboard]

Feb 3, 2021 13:42:18 GMT -6 Dr. Cox said:

I am dealing with some religious trauma from growing up evangelical as well as trying to figure out my spirituality and I’ve so far found this book both validating and enlightening.

Ugh I want to read this so bad! Of course my hold on it comes up and my account is locked because my daughter lost a library book.
She reads more than I do, but I swear she’s like the absent minded professor. I find books everywhere. Now I need to find that Great Wall of China book so I can release the hold on my account.

[ktg]

Mar 2, 2021 9:02:14 GMT -6 athn64 said:

The thought that boys need an "initiation rite" with their dads to become men was so eye-rolly to me. White male Americans have never had a standard "rite" such as described in the book. In fact, the things they described I believe to be more common place in Indigenous cultures here in the US.

Yes, the toxic masculinity just baked in to this view of manliness just kills me dead. The concept of rituals for reaching adulthood - or rituals, in general - doesn't bother me. They can be quite beautiful. More importantly, they carry the meaning of one's culture at large.

This version is so artificial it's practically a joke, and based on nothing. Nothing!