elle
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Post by elle on Jan 24, 2020 12:24:47 GMT -6
What it comes down to for me is that I want Kamala as president and I wish she could see the future and know exactly which path to take that would make that happen. *sigh*
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cnf
Ruby
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Post by cnf on Jan 24, 2020 12:28:17 GMT -6
What it comes down to for me is that I want Kamala as president and I wish she could see the future and know exactly which path to take that would make that happen. *sigh* Yes. I'm so sad I don't get to vote for her.
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claudia
Sapphire
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Post by claudia on Jan 24, 2020 12:47:23 GMT -6
I also feel like not much noticeable will be done in the first term of the new president. I think it's not a "normal" situation. We are coming off a presidency where norms have just been overturned, so I think the next term will be building the groundwork to set up the what needs to be done. In my mind this makes thinking "Joe will do one term and then Kamala can run" more dangerous, because if not much that is obvious and substantial to the average voter gets done, they are less likely to vote for the VP. I think it's different if someone is running for a second term - the messaging could become "We've started XYZ and have taken these steps, but we need another 4 years to finish."
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milano
Emerald
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Post by milano on Jan 24, 2020 13:15:59 GMT -6
I also feel like not much noticeable will be done in the first term of the new president. I think it's not a "normal" situation. We are coming off a presidency where norms have just been overturned, so I think the next term will be building the groundwork to set up the what needs to be done. In my mind this makes thinking "Joe will do one term and then Kamala can run" more dangerous, because if not much that is obvious and substantial to the average voter gets done, they are less likely to vote for the VP. I think it's different if someone is running for a second term - the messaging could become "We've started XYZ and have taken these steps, but we need another 4 years to finish." The 'one term' thing concerns me for those very reasons. There is going to be so much to fix/sort out when 45 gets out of office, to say a candidate will only commit one term is a huge problem. We will need the 8 years. Then another Dem for 8 years after that. There is a lot of shit to deal with after this clusterfuck of chaos that is currently happening in the WH.
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dc2london
Admin
Press Secretary
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Post by dc2london on Jan 24, 2020 13:21:35 GMT -6
You make an excellent point claudia about how the first term of the next Democratic president will be largely spent restoring alliances, codifying norms, and working to undo the mess Trump made. And that line of thinking makes me lean more toward a Biden vote.
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Post by greykitty on Jan 24, 2020 13:35:46 GMT -6
I don't think any elected official should box themselves in with a one-term pledge. Flexibility is essential, IMO. And, I'd prefer that the VP candidate not be picked until the convention in any event.
I'd personally prefer Schiff to stay in Congress. If real, fundamental and lasting change is going to come, it's going to have to come legislatively, not via EO IMO, so I think we need real leaders in the House and Senate.
Harris, I think, would be best served in the future by running for another senatorial term, and winning big, in California. I'm assuming her advisors feel that a second term by a large margin is more than possible. Then consider other political positions.
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jkjacq
Ruby
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Post by jkjacq on Jan 24, 2020 13:40:12 GMT -6
I get what greykitty is saying. We currently have some kickass experienced people in Congress. We need them where they are as much as we need a strong leader. There are some terrific people out there not holding an office that we could hopefully pull into the new administration (Abrahms, Castro, Gilliam etc).
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jaygee
Diamond
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Post by jaygee on Jan 24, 2020 13:44:08 GMT -6
Along the lines of Harris staying in the Senate - with Feinstein retiring, she will be elevated to Senior Senator from CA and hopefully with that comes some more leadership opportunities. I do think her best work probably happens there. I implicitly trust her that whatever she decides with the opportunities available to her (I don’t personally believe Joe will select her as VP) will be in the best interest of the people and her career. She is a lifelong public servant who has made excellent career choices so far and won every election she has ever took part of (until this one 😢)
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Post by greykitty on Jan 24, 2020 13:47:24 GMT -6
Just speculation, but I got the impression much of the 'blue wave' in the Midwest came from suburban distaste for Trump and moderate Democratic candidates being available on the ballot. I suspect if Sanders or Warren were to be elected, we'd get the opposite effect next Congressional cycle, assuming Republicans got smart and found their own at least somewhat moderate candidates.
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jkjacq
Ruby
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Post by jkjacq on Jan 24, 2020 13:55:18 GMT -6
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jkjacq
Ruby
Posts: 21,768 Likes: 94,580
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Post by jkjacq on Jan 24, 2020 15:18:05 GMT -6
Resistbot has a straw poll Warren is leading at 33% Sanders @ 22 Yang @21 Pete @7 Biden @6
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Post by punker1212 on Jan 24, 2020 20:03:39 GMT -6
I have a lot of thoughts on this. I spent the day mostly away after the ick from yesterday on GD and needed a break, and don't feel like I can pull together a decent response here. Solo parenting all weekend, so I'll try again tomorrow night?
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jaygee
Diamond
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Post by jaygee on Jan 24, 2020 20:10:01 GMT -6
I have thoughts but I’m a little too tired to coherently write them out. But bottom line, this is my biggest problem with having old white peoples as the nominees.
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sctiger
Platinum
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Post by sctiger on Jan 24, 2020 20:21:03 GMT -6
I thought I'd want Kamala as AG but a lot of the talk here has made me change my mind. I like the idea of her being Senior Senator. She has done well in the Senate and I think she has a great career ahead of her. Klobuchar and Booker would also made good cabinet members, but I'd hate to lose their Senate experience. I'd like to see people like Gillum and Abrams get some bigger national roles.
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sctiger
Platinum
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Post by sctiger on Jan 24, 2020 20:25:56 GMT -6
I think it's very possible to have a Democrat win the presidency. Trump's core base will not change. I think there's very few people who didn't vote for him in 2016 who are like, "I really like what he's doing, I'm going to vote Trump in 2020." And then there are people who aren't part of his core base that voted for him but now don't like what he's doing. And those are the voters we could get. But, I think they would vote for Biden and would not vote for someone like Warren- they would just sit this vote out.
I'd love to have Warren, but I feel like there's so much at stake and I understand the need to be safe. Biden isn't going to make sweeping changes, but he will pick good people to help run the administration and he will work toward restoring norms. He has good relationships with people and he's respected. He's not perfect, but no one is. I have no doubt that he would make a good president and I'd be happy to vote for him.
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Post by coconutbacon on Jan 24, 2020 20:43:07 GMT -6
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Post by Uncaripswife on Jan 24, 2020 22:37:24 GMT -6
Two thoughts: 1. This is exactly why Biden is not getting my primary vote. 2. This quote struck me as critically important: "many Americans now seem unable to conceptualize racism that’s less overt than a slur-laced tirade or police hosing down black people in the name of segregation." Because so many white folks think this is the only kind of racism, we all think we're the good guys simply because we don't use the n word or physically assault black people or other POC.
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Post by coconutbacon on Jan 25, 2020 5:41:54 GMT -6
Two thoughts: 1. This is exactly why Biden is not getting my primary vote. 2. This quote struck me as critically important: "many Americans now seem unable to conceptualize racism that’s less overt than a slur-laced tirade or police hosing down black people in the name of segregation." Because so many white folks think this is the only kind of racism, we all think we're the good guys simply because we don't use the n word or physically assault black people or other POC. I am in complete agreement. Pre-Trump still had whitewashed textbooks and history curricula. The “normal” Biden seeks to return to still had a huge population within the country that wanted to keep out immigrants and become isolationist— Trump just exposed them. Also “normal” was before #MeToo. (And Biden’s half hearted, non communal “apology” to Anita Hill has not gone unnoticed.) And “normal” was before we were in (or many of us were acknowledging) the absolute dire, accelerating climate crisis we are in. We can’t just recommit to the Paris Agreement and think that’s going to be ok. “Normal” felt comfortable for most white, middle and upper middle class Americans because we could easily ignore the ugly stuff, but it was still there. I don’t think we should aspire to go back.
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Post by blurnette989 on Jan 25, 2020 6:04:57 GMT -6
Two thoughts: 1. This is exactly why Biden is not getting my primary vote. 2. This quote struck me as critically important: "many Americans now seem unable to conceptualize racism that’s less overt than a slur-laced tirade or police hosing down black people in the name of segregation." Because so many white folks think this is the only kind of racism, we all think we're the good guys simply because we don't use the n word or physically assault black people or other POC. I am in complete agreement. Pre-Trump still had whitewashed textbooks and history curricula. The “normal” Biden seeks to return to still had a huge population within the country that wanted to keep out immigrants and become isolationist— Trump just exposed them. Also “normal” was before #MeToo. (And Biden’s half hearted, non communal “apology” to Anita Hill has not gone unnoticed.) And “normal” was before we were in (or many of us were acknowledging) the absolute dire, accelerating climate crisis we are in. We can’t just recommit to the Paris Agreement and think that’s going to be ok. “Normal” felt comfortable for most white, middle and upper middle class Americans because we could easily ignore the ugly stuff, but it was still there. I don’t think we should aspire to go back. This is why Biden and Buttigieg frustrate me. They seem oblivious to their own racism. And to be clear I consider all white people in the US racist because we support and participate in structural systems that keep poc disadvantaged, incarcerated, etc. In today's world you have to at least recognize and try better. Neither of them do. But then Biden has more support of black and African American voters in the south and so it's a tough one to navigate. Basically I won't vote for Biden in the primary, but I vote Virginia where I'm fairly certain he will win. Sorry this was long and all over the place.
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Post by punker1212 on Jan 25, 2020 6:21:06 GMT -6
I’m glad this article was shared and really appreciate that people are thinking critically about this!
My concerns r/t this article Biden I’ve been just kind of biting my tongue on. 1. Not trying to change anyone’s mind. 2. I already feel like I white knight for Bernie too much. That being said, I have been entirely shocked when progressives have said they would vote Biden in the primary. General? Hell yes. One thousand percent. But primary? Moderates, makes more sense.
Biden to me is the most problematic candidate. I understand that he has a lot more support with Black voters than other candidates, but a lot of that has to do with his association to Obama, not Biden’s own record. His record, words, and actions just reek with paternalism to me. Very old guard paternalism.
So on top of that to have such an unappealing platform (to me, again because I swoon over progressive policies) with this long history of ick factors I cannot see the rationale in progressives voting Biden in the primary.
Much of the criticism here against Bernie I appreciate. But I’ve also wondered if people are bringing their own biases to the discussion? Because Bernie is guilty of latent racist remarks and sexist remarks- kind of like we acknowledge Biden has done. Bernie is an asshole, Biden is a creep. Democrats hate Bernie. A lot of swing voters don’t like Biden. I just think, at the end of the day, politicians have personality disorders. People in the spotlight a lot make some pretty bad off the cuff remarks.
Some of the criticism against Bernie is that he can’t reach across the aisle to build coalitions- but I remember him working very closely with the late John McCain on VA reform. He is also known as the amendment king for making better policy out of less palatable bills. His voting record on gun control- dude represents Vermont. Where people hunt and love their guns. I mean, if he had voted differently it may have cost him his job. We acknowledge that for other legislators and give them leeway. But not for Sanders?
I actually didn’t mean for this to be a Bernie vs Biden post. I genuinely think you could do this with any of the current candidates. We all feel like there is no perfect candidate, and that’s the one thing we all can agree on! So for me, when it’s easy to become really disheartened by statements made by the current lineup, I’m looking more at track record, platform, and electability. It’s the last piece- electability- that is still leaving me scratching my head. Bernie has a lot of energy in his campaign and a record for bringing out voters, and some really big endorsements, but will independent moderates be afraid of the socialist label?
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Post by punker1212 on Jan 25, 2020 6:32:10 GMT -6
And I just want to add that this is not me trying to change anyone’s mind. It’s just my internal monologue.
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Post by greykitty on Jan 25, 2020 6:52:56 GMT -6
punker1212, you mentioned "That being said, I have been entirely shocked when progressives have said they would vote Biden in the primary. General? Hell yes. One thousand percent. But primary? Moderates, makes more sense." For me, thinking back just four years ago, a lot of people voting in Republican primaries wanted to do a 'protest' vote, make their voices heard against Republican candidates that they thought weren't listening, wanted a 'sea change' - and voted for Trump to indicate that protest. No one, even those voters, really thought Trump would go the distance, til he became the candidate due to those primary votes. Then they were stuck, because they disliked Clinton so much. I want to replace Trump. I want a candidate that has a solid chance of doing so. I don't see Sanders or Warren really being able to beat Trump, and I am not relying on the argument that people hate Trump so much they'll vote for a turnip instead. I think Sanders and even Warren would have a lot of people sitting on their hands come November rather than vote for them. Granted, the Bernie fanatics would rather burn everything down rather than vote for another candidate as well - but it goes both ways - a lot of Dems would never vote for Sanders either. Running extreme candidates can destroy a party - just ask so many Republicans who feel like they have nowhere to go.
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Post by Uncaripswife on Jan 25, 2020 7:01:36 GMT -6
I’m glad this article was shared and really appreciate that people are thinking critically about this! My concerns r/t this article Biden I’ve been just kind of biting my tongue on. 1. Not trying to change anyone’s mind. 2. I already feel like I white knight for Bernie too much. That being said, I have been entirely shocked when progressives have said they would vote Biden in the primary. General? Hell yes. One thousand percent. But primary? Moderates, makes more sense. Biden to me is the most problematic candidate. I understand that he has a lot more support with Black voters than other candidates, but a lot of that has to do with his association to Obama, not Biden’s own record. His record, words, and actions just reek with paternalism to me. Very old guard paternalism. So on top of that to have such an unappealing platform (to me, again because I swoon over progressive policies) with this long history of ick factors I cannot see the rationale in progressives voting Biden in the primary. Much of the criticism here against Bernie I appreciate. But I’ve also wondered if people are bringing their own biases to the discussion? Because Bernie is guilty of latent racist remarks and sexist remarks- kind of like we acknowledge Biden has done. Bernie is an asshole, Biden is a creep. Democrats hate Bernie. A lot of swing voters don’t like Biden. I just think, at the end of the day, politicians have personality disorders. People in the spotlight a lot make some pretty bad off the cuff remarks. Some of the criticism against Bernie is that he can’t reach across the aisle to build coalitions- but I remember him working very closely with the late John McCain on VA reform. He is also known as the amendment king for making better policy out of less palatable bills. His voting record on gun control- dude represents Vermont. Where people hunt and love their guns. I mean, if he had voted differently it may have cost him his job. We acknowledge that for other legislators and give them leeway. But not for Sanders? I actually didn’t mean for this to be a Bernie vs Biden post. I genuinely think you could do this with any of the current candidates. We all feel like there is no perfect candidate, and that’s the one thing we all can agree on! So for me, when it’s easy to become really disheartened by statements made by the current lineup, I’m looking more at track record, platform, and electability. It’s the last piece- electability- that is still leaving me scratching my head. Bernie has a lot of energy in his campaign and a record for bringing out voters, and some really big endorsements, but will independent moderates be afraid of the socialist label? I think moderates who hate 45 will not vote for Bernie in a 45 vs. Bernie match up. They will just stay home. Maybe that doesn't matter. If progressives and staunch Dems turn out en masse then moderates who voted for 45 last time staying home is good. Bernie Bros and purity testers probably stay home if its Biden vs. 45. Will enough moderates turn out for Biden? See also, Klobuchar. How would Warren do vs. 45? Buttigieg? I don't know. Somebody hold me.
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Post by PandaWatch on Jan 25, 2020 7:04:41 GMT -6
Saw this yesterday. Seems relevant to the current discussion:
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Post by Uncaripswife on Jan 25, 2020 7:09:33 GMT -6
punker1212, you mentioned "That being said, I have been entirely shocked when progressives have said they would vote Biden in the primary. General? Hell yes. One thousand percent. But primary? Moderates, makes more sense." For me, thinking back just four years ago, a lot of people voting in Republican primaries wanted to do a 'protest' vote, make their voices heard against Republican candidates that they thought weren't listening, wanted a 'sea change' - and voted for Trump to indicate that protest. No one, even those voters, really thought Trump would go the distance, til he became the candidate due to those primary votes. Then they were stuck, because they disliked Clinton so much. I want to replace Trump. I want a candidate that has a solid chance of doing so. I don't see Sanders or Warren really being able to beat Trump, and I am not relying on the argument that people hate Trump so much they'll vote for a turnip instead. I think Sanders and even Warren would have a lot of people sitting on their hands come November rather than vote for them. Granted, the Bernie fanatics would rather burn everything down rather than vote for another candidate as well - but it goes both ways - a lot of Dems would never vote for Sanders either. Running extreme candidates can destroy a party - just ask so many Republicans who feel like they have nowhere to go. I don't think Warren is nearly as polarizing as Bernie is for moderates. She talks about going after the financial sector and exploitative capitalists, tackling student loan debt, affording child care. I think a lot of people who feel they're falling behind financially want to hear that message. On the other hand, she has said and done things that I understand Native Americans and Black Americans find untenable. On the other other hand, every single white candidate has said and done racist things.
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Post by Uncaripswife on Jan 25, 2020 7:10:18 GMT -6
Saw this yesterday. Seems relevant to the current discussion: Yup ETA To me, this tells me Bernie, Yang, and Bloomberg cannot be the nominee. We will have 4 more years of T.
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Post by punker1212 on Jan 25, 2020 7:15:38 GMT -6
I shouldn’t have posted right before my kids woke up! I’ll catch up later.
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Post by blurnette989 on Jan 25, 2020 7:31:02 GMT -6
greykitty though to be fair to punker1212, she was surprised by progressives considering Biden, not moderates like yourself. I don't think anyone is surprised moderates would consider punker1212, so as a "radical leftist" (I was recently called this when i told them who I supported in the last Portuguese election, lol), the biggest reason I have even considered Biden is because I have also repeatedly stated that I also believe it is important to listen to voters of color. White people gave this country Trump. Whether it was you or your crazy gun-toting uncle or your otherwise lovely and kindhearted mom- white people did that. Voters of color have repeatedly been the reason we've been saved from candidates like Roy Moore. We vote in so many terrible candidates and then the brunt of those decisions are carried by BIPOC. Many BIPOC voters (though i do recognize not all- no voting bloc is a monolith) have indicated that Biden is their choice because they believe he is the only front runner candidate that lots of white people will vote for, and thus can beat Trump. Because beating Trump is life or death for so many BIPOC. From a policy perspective I am much more on Bernie's team. But I also recognize that we don't choose candidates based *just* on policies. You got Bloomberg as your number 2 on that survey, but you recognize that even though you may agree with him on lots of policies he is a shit candidate. I agree with Steyer on lots of stuff, which would be great at a cocktail party, but not as my candidate. So I am trying to weigh all of these factors when considering my vote, primary and general.
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Post by justbecause on Jan 25, 2020 7:51:20 GMT -6
Bernie couldn’t vote any other way about the guns because the hunting and gun love is strong up here. Everyone loves Bernie or hates him up here.
In 2016 he received like 14,000 write in votes for President in VT.
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jkjacq
Ruby
Posts: 21,768 Likes: 94,580
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Post by jkjacq on Jan 25, 2020 8:54:48 GMT -6
Thanks for all the article thoughts!
I liked uncle joe during the Obama years but I didn’t delve too deep on him. And I would have happily voted for him in 16. But that comes from my own ignorance of his past, or not even ignorance just privilege.
This time around he just seems more problematic to me. It the sense of entitlement vibe I think outside of what he’s done ‘wrong’. The unwillingness to own up to his past?
I still can’t put into words.
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