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Post by punker1212 on Jan 23, 2020 10:31:05 GMT -6
I think this is very different from what I envisioned in my fantasy. In my world, Democrats are thrilled to be freed from the pressures of bowing to donor influence and actually take action on their platform. Like it plays out how it would have for Jed Bartlett. But Bartlett was maybe a little more pragmatic and a lot nicer than Bernie. Also. This is just frustrating to internalize. Like, incremental movement is not going to work with climate change. Even the boldest GND isn’t enough to actually create meaningful changes. And incremental approaches to healthcare reform will still leave people dying while they wait. Sigh. You're absolutely right that we need huge, bold, structural change on these life and death matters. But, governing happens as a team effort. It can be hard to remember that when you've got Mitch and buttface ruling by fiat, but look at the ACA. It started out as a far more liberal, reformative plan and through compromise and reaching across the aisle it became law. Obama would be the first to tell you it wasn't the total restructuring he would have hoped for, but it was still an enormous improvement. This was my issue with Bernie in the 2016 primary: I love the bold agenda he proposes, but it does me no good if he can't govern and enact that agenda. It's not that I don't support his vision for America, it's that I don't trust that he is the one who can get us there. I’m just rocking myself in a corner here!
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roloma
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Post by roloma on Jan 23, 2020 11:02:27 GMT -6
Thank you PandaWatch for sharing your experience. One of my coworkers in DC (who is also a dem - albeit moderate) has been telling me similar things about Bernie, including the fact that he is just outright mean. Not many people believe me when I tell them that, especially when arguing regarding the whole Liz/Bernie debacle. My coworker really likes Amy and was just furious that there was so much focus on how Amy treated her staff, when Bernie was just the same but likely because he was a man, there was no focus on that at all. I can't convince people that he is anything but a kind hearted, likable old man...when he really isn't even close to that. I can appreciate his ideas for change but he just has no idea of the reality of making those happen. And he is just mean, so there's that.
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Post by punker1212 on Jan 23, 2020 11:03:52 GMT -6
Thank you PandaWatch for sharing your experience. One of my coworkers in DC (who is also a dem - albeit moderate) has been telling me similar things about Bernie, including the fact that he is just outright mean. Not many people believe me when I tell them that, especially when arguing regarding the whole Liz/Bernie debacle. My coworker really likes Amy and was just furious that there was so much focus on how Amy treated her staff, when Bernie was just the same but likely because he was a man, there was no focus on that at all. I can't convince people that he is anything but a kind hearted, likable old man...when he really isn't even close to that. I can appreciate his ideas for change but he just has no idea of the reality of making those happen. And he is just mean, so there's that. Well it doesn’t help the argument about the likable old man when he has god sent birds landing on his podium 😂!
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Post by ladybrienne on Jan 23, 2020 11:11:12 GMT -6
I was actually very GO HILLARY on the Bernie comments. At this point in my mind, who the fuck cares? Everyone who doesn't like her, has already made up their minds about her. Maybe the timing sucked, but oh well. Everything else is a rolling cart of dumpster fires.
I get very....uneasy with the Bernie bros, and I do not think Bernie has done enough to dissuade them from their harassment, troll-like, and often sexist behavior, especially towards women candidates.
I also never forgot that Bernie called HRC unqualified. Disagree? OK. Unqualified? Fucking no. No. No.
So, yeah, I am all for HRC continuing to tell it like it is and call bullshit when she sees it.
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Post by ladybrienne on Jan 23, 2020 11:12:02 GMT -6
I say all of that in the same breath as, I will vote for him in the general against Trump. And I would do so happily.
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elle
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Post by elle on Jan 23, 2020 11:22:39 GMT -6
I was actually very GO HILLARY on the Bernie comments. At this point in my mind, who the fuck cares? Everyone who doesn't like her, has already made up their minds about her. Maybe the timing sucked, but oh well. Everything else is a rolling cart of dumpster fires. I get very....uneasy with the Bernie bros, and I do not think Bernie has done enough to dissuade them from their harassment, troll-like, and often sexist behavior, especially towards women candidates.
I also never forgot that Bernie called HRC unqualified. Disagree? OK. Unqualified? Fucking no. No. No.
So, yeah, I am all for HRC continuing to tell it like it is and call bullshit when she sees it. Exactly.
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Post by blurnette989 on Jan 23, 2020 11:28:46 GMT -6
You're absolutely right that we need huge, bold, structural change on these life and death matters. But, governing happens as a team effort. It can be hard to remember that when you've got Mitch and buttface ruling by fiat, but look at the ACA. It started out as a far more liberal, reformative plan and through compromise and reaching across the aisle it became law. Obama would be the first to tell you it wasn't the total restructuring he would have hoped for, but it was still an enormous improvement. This was my issue with Bernie in the 2016 primary: I love the bold agenda he proposes, but it does me no good if he can't govern and enact that agenda. It's not that I don't support his vision for America, it's that I don't trust that he is the one who can get us there. I’m just rocking myself in a corner here! I'm with you. I sadly believe that there will not be enough change anywhere near fast enough to prevent 2-3 degrees of change. Fast fashion won't stop. Not a single country in the Paris Accord is on track to reach their goals. Bolsanaro is selling the Amazon. Etc. The people who've added the least to the carbon footprint will be the hardest hit. It's depressing.
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Post by punker1212 on Jan 23, 2020 11:30:20 GMT -6
I’m just rocking myself in a corner here! I'm with you. I sadly believe that there will not be enough change anywhere near fast enough to prevent 2-3 degrees of change. Fast fashion won't stop. Not a single country in the Paris Accord is on track to reach their goals. Bolsanaro is selling the Amazon. Etc. The people who've added the least to the carbon footprint will be the hardest hit. It's depressing. Word. The only real solution is an anti anxiety med for climate change.
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byjove
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Post by byjove on Jan 23, 2020 11:37:21 GMT -6
I'm with you. I sadly believe that there will not be enough change anywhere near fast enough to prevent 2-3 degrees of change. Fast fashion won't stop. Not a single country in the Paris Accord is on track to reach their goals. Bolsanaro is selling the Amazon. Etc. The people who've added the least to the carbon footprint will be the hardest hit. It's depressing. Word. The only real solution is an anti anxiety med for climate change. Seriously. Our poor planet. We've killed it.
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Post by cakewench on Jan 23, 2020 11:50:13 GMT -6
Over 100 prominent Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders have endorsed Liz:
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pearbear
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Post by pearbear on Jan 23, 2020 13:12:46 GMT -6
Thank you PandaWatch for sharing your experience. One of my coworkers in DC (who is also a dem - albeit moderate) has been telling me similar things about Bernie, including the fact that he is just outright mean. Not many people believe me when I tell them that, especially when arguing regarding the whole Liz/Bernie debacle. My coworker really likes Amy and was just furious that there was so much focus on how Amy treated her staff, when Bernie was just the same but likely because he was a man, there was no focus on that at all. I can't convince people that he is anything but a kind hearted, likable old man...when he really isn't even close to that. I can appreciate his ideas for change but he just has no idea of the reality of making those happen. And he is just mean, so there's that. I am always surprised that anyone finds him to be likable. He is the complete opposite to me.
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Minerva
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Post by Minerva on Jan 23, 2020 14:23:06 GMT -6
I don’t have any issue with what Hillary said about Bernie nor the timing. 🤷🏻♀️ I do. 1. It’s not true. He’s polling #1 per a new CNN poll. 2. It just amplifies the internal bickering problems we already have. The only person that helped us Trump. The context was that he is not well-liked by his colleagues in the Senate. That hasn’t been well-represented by the headlines.
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Post by punker1212 on Jan 23, 2020 14:48:01 GMT -6
I do. 1. It’s not true. He’s polling #1 per a new CNN poll. 2. It just amplifies the internal bickering problems we already have. The only person that helped us Trump. The context was that he is not well-liked by his colleagues in the Senate. That hasn’t been well-represented by the headlines. Definitely.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Jan 23, 2020 18:59:45 GMT -6
For me, as a lifelong dem who would consider herself pretty progressive, the Bernie “my way or the highway“ just irks me and I find it really ineffective at this point. And I hate to say but it’s rubbing off on some of his surrogates like AOC and it’s a turn off. I will say that as much I adore Hillary Clinton, I was happy initially that Bernie ran in 2016. I was glad we got some dialogue and not a presumed winner and it did push the party platform left. But he burned his good will with me when he pouted and mucked around with his endorsement of her. And now that I’ve learned more about him - his stance on gun control, the repeated misconduct allegations in his campaign, his exaggerated “civil rights work” and his ineffectiveness in the Senate - he’s just a big nope for me. He pretends to be an outsider but he’s been in government his entire career. He pretends to care about diversity and racial justice but his policy proposal benefit middle class and wealthy white people. He is against reparations but wants to give everyone free college.
On weather I will support his policies as a dem if he’s elected - it’s hit or miss and really comes down to how he approaches it. For example, I support M4A. I liked Kamala’s plan best but in general I’m more M4A than not. But I also don’t think it’s feasible within the first term following a T presidency. Campaigning on Medicare for All but pivoting to strengthening ACA as a compromise once in office if M4A isn’t feasible at the time would be great. Being M4A or bust is just not going to work.
I do want bold change on climate. I do support the Green New Deal, but I think a better leader would be needed to get that done. I don’t think he has the support or temperament.
Bottom line for me is that if he would work with others and come up with viable plans or respond to criticism of his policies I would be engaged. But he hasn’t shown a history of doing that. I still wouldn’t be all in on some of his policies because I just disagree, but I would support what I agree with reasonable methods. Executive order on every damn thing gets a big ol side eye from me and I think that’s all he’ll have.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Jan 23, 2020 19:02:56 GMT -6
Tl;dr I have long winded Bernie feels.
I actually get really in my feels about how his supporters and surrogates paint the dem party as slow moving and moderate. Especially when it circles to criticizing folks like Obama and Hillary. Neoliberals and whatever other nonsense they brand the bread and butter of the dem party - just gtfo with that.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Jan 23, 2020 19:05:30 GMT -6
And I just want you all to know that my H is a Bernie fan. I think he wishes Bernie was his grandpa. Lol
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Jan 24, 2020 6:24:49 GMT -6
jaygee word on the street is that Kamala's going to endorse Biden
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Post by blurnette989 on Jan 24, 2020 6:40:06 GMT -6
jaygee word on the street is that Kamala's going to endorse Biden I heard this too. I hope it at the very least means they have an agreement where she will be picked for VP and he sticks to one term making her de facto heir.
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dc2london
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Post by dc2london on Jan 24, 2020 6:41:25 GMT -6
jaygee word on the street is that Kamala's going to endorse Biden I heard this too. I hope it at the very least means they have an agreement where she will be picked for VP and he sticks to one term making her de facto heir. The one term prospect makes me nervous because it would mean we forfeit the incumbent advantage. You could argue that the sitting Veep gets some of that, but it's still giving up part of an edge
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Post by blurnette989 on Jan 24, 2020 6:46:06 GMT -6
I heard this too. I hope it at the very least means they have an agreement where she will be picked for VP and he sticks to one term making her de facto heir. The one term prospect makes me nervous because it would mean we forfeit the incumbent advantage. You could argue that the sitting Veep gets some of that, but it's still giving up part of an edge I agree. It's a risk, but from her perspective I bet it's one she is willing to take. The name recognition she'd gain and all the good juju from reversing course on various environmental protections and mild mannered middle lane policies.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Jan 24, 2020 7:02:45 GMT -6
I want her as AG. I want her to go after Barr and associates
THEN I want her as President
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Post by ladybrienne on Jan 24, 2020 8:36:42 GMT -6
For me, as a lifelong dem who would consider herself pretty progressive, the Bernie “my way or the highway“ just irks me and I find it really ineffective at this point. And I hate to say but it’s rubbing off on some of his surrogates like AOC and it’s a turn off. I will say that as much I adore Hillary Clinton, I was happy initially that Bernie ran in 2016. I was glad we got some dialogue and not a presumed winner and it did push the party platform left. But he burned his good will with me when he pouted and mucked around with his endorsement of her. And now that I’ve learned more about him - his stance on gun control, the repeated misconduct allegations in his campaign, his exaggerated “civil rights work” and his ineffectiveness in the Senate - he’s just a big nope for me. He pretends to be an outsider but he’s been in government his entire career. He pretends to care about diversity and racial justice but his policy proposal benefit middle class and wealthy white people. He is against reparations but wants to give everyone free college. On weather I will support his policies as a dem if he’s elected - it’s hit or miss and really comes down to how he approaches it. For example, I support M4A. I liked Kamala’s plan best but in general I’m more M4A than not. But I also don’t think it’s feasible within the first term following a T presidency. Campaigning on Medicare for All but pivoting to strengthening ACA as a compromise once in office if M4A isn’t feasible at the time would be great. Being M4A or bust is just not going to work. I do want bold change on climate. I do support the Green New Deal, but I think a better leader would be needed to get that done. I don’t think he has the support or temperament. Bottom line for me is that if he would work with others and come up with viable plans or respond to criticism of his policies I would be engaged. But he hasn’t shown a history of doing that. I still wouldn’t be all in on some of his policies because I just disagree, but I would support what I agree with reasonable methods. Executive order on every damn thing gets a big ol side eye from me and I think that’s all he’ll have. SO MUCH YES. My biggest fear of a Bernie presidency is his unwillingness to work with others. That is a concern, and there is a proven record of him, well, not working with others on the opposite side. Especially when you have Mitch McConnell. I mean come on dude, no one wants to sit in gridlock for another 4-8 years. We want someone who can get shit done. I have never been convinces that he can at the executive branch.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Jan 24, 2020 8:37:32 GMT -6
jaygee word on the street is that Kamala's going to endorse Biden I’ve been sort of holding my breath on this for awhile. I feel it’s coming but was curious about timing. I’m nervous about the shit storm coming her way for not supporting a woman, but I know she can handle it.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Jan 24, 2020 8:42:09 GMT -6
I want her as AG. I want her to go after Barr and associates THEN I want her as President I get nervous about her at AG. I think sometimes that’s a risky position - one thing the admin does that people don’t like and the AG can be the scapegoat. Given that she’s a Black woman - America’s favorite scapegoat - I worry about the liability of this position for her. I also wonder if she would even accept it. I know timing is everything, but she declined it before, so would she be interested now? But yeah, I do fantasize about her being the public face of a takedown of all sorts of corrupt folks. As long as it doesn’t kill her career, I’m in.
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jkjacq
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Post by jkjacq on Jan 24, 2020 8:44:40 GMT -6
I want her as AG. I want her to go after Barr and associates THEN I want her as President I get nervous about her at AG. I think sometimes that’s a risky position - one thing the admin does that people don’t like and the AG can be the scapegoat. Given that she’s a Black woman - America’s favorite scapegoat - I worry about the liability of this position for her. I also wonder if she would even accept it. I know timing is everything, but she declined it before, so would she be interested now? But yeah, I do fantasize about her being the public face of a takedown of all sorts of corrupt folks. As long as it doesn’t kill her career, I’m in. I get totally get that, and I agree. But I think she would be perfect to unwind all the shit this admin has done, and to do it quickly.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Jan 24, 2020 8:47:27 GMT -6
I get nervous about her at AG. I think sometimes that’s a risky position - one thing the admin does that people don’t like and the AG can be the scapegoat. Given that she’s a Black woman - America’s favorite scapegoat - I worry about the liability of this position for her. I also wonder if she would even accept it. I know timing is everything, but she declined it before, so would she be interested now? But yeah, I do fantasize about her being the public face of a takedown of all sorts of corrupt folks. As long as it doesn’t kill her career, I’m in. I get totally get that, and I agree. But I think she would be perfect to unwind all the shit this admin has done, and to do it quickly. I can’t think of anyone else that has quite the chops to do it, so on that I agree. I think others could be very effective but her particular combination of skill set plus experience makes her ideal in my book.
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byjove
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Post by byjove on Jan 24, 2020 8:50:48 GMT -6
I want her as AG. I want her to go after Barr and associates THEN I want her as President I think Schiff would be a great AG too.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Jan 24, 2020 9:03:02 GMT -6
Not to pile on Bernie, but just found this thread interesting.
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claudia
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Post by claudia on Jan 24, 2020 10:58:18 GMT -6
I don't want Kamala as VP. The last time a sitting VP was elected was the first Bush. Before that, it hadn't happened since Martin Van Buren. I think being a VP to a sitting president provides too much baggage when things go wrong and too much "The VP doesn't do much" for a successful administration. Maybe this would change with an agreement that he was only going to pursue one term, but it's not a chance I really want to take.
I realize this is probably a very unpopular opinion, so I want to make it clear that I'm not saying it out of anything against Kamala having a place in the administration.
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jaygee
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Post by jaygee on Jan 24, 2020 11:50:38 GMT -6
I don't want Kamala as VP. The last time a sitting VP was elected was the first Bush. Before that, it hadn't happened since Martin Van Buren. I think being a VP to a sitting president provides too much baggage when things go wrong and too much "The VP doesn't do much" for a successful administration. Maybe this would change with an agreement that he was only going to pursue one term, but it's not a chance I really want to take. I realize this is probably a very unpopular opinion, so I want to make it clear that I'm not saying it out of anything against Kamala having a place in the administration. +1
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